Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s

[migflug]

If hal can get mk1p before 2018 than they can order another 40 to keep production line running. HAL should focus more on mk2 but i have no faith in hal/drdo/ ada.

 

[NKVD]

would enable it to outclass JF Thunder Block 2 and Block 3 by miles.Also any idea of Elta 2052 radar in the Mark1A.I thought Israel blocked its sale in 2012 owning to US pressure

May be Well it will be hybrid to Like Elta 2032 in MK1. Nevertheless Its Matter of time We get AESA Technology is our Hand we will Get Zhuk AE in Super 30 upgrade.Our On AESA Uttam Is own its Way.
BEL Also taking Help From Elta & KNIRTI institute Russia (Partner in FGFA)

Latest Israelis Also willing to Share More ISRAEL & IN FOCUS: AESA radar emerges from US export shadow - 1/20/2014 - Flight Global

As For Us its Policy For India Is Changing.They Know that its Matter of time India get it Its Better Make Profit in it.

I can only wish that Tejas have a >1 T/W ratio.It would enable it to outclass JF Thunder Block 2 and Block 3 by miles.

Well In my opinion TWR is For Dog Fight Fans which is In-probable in Modern ERA . My opinion Better Equip LCA with High End Passive IRST Sensors And Python 5 IRCCM.

It will Be Lethal For High IR Russian Engines

 

[halupridol]

Wait another decade .

 

[The Huskar]

Wait another decade .

Why so pessimistic bro.

 

[#hydra#]

I can only wish that Tejas have a >1 T/W ratio.It would enable it to outclass JF Thunder Block 2 and Block 3 by miles.Also any idea of Elta 2052 radar in the Mark1A.I thought Israel blocked its sale in 2012 owning to US pressure.

Psychological move for attracting troll....

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

Why does not GOI ask GE to uprate the dry thrust of F404 as they did with Volvo for Gripen C/D.6-10 kn increase in dry thrust would go a long way if HAL manages to shed 1000 kilos off Tejas.

Very well said . Since we must go for 80 tejas mk1p we must uprating f404 . MK1P ment to reduce weight too .This itself will improve tejas performance for a2a. With uprated engine sure it will achieve AoA needed for IAF . By 2019 we will retire all mig 21s .

So why not go for 80+ tejas improved version and keep the lime running ... Govt need to push it down the throat of IAF indeed . Some thing is better than nothing

An important question is if light category majority of birds are assumed to be future Mk2 and LCA navy also needs GE414 (Mk1 itself), then whats the point of continuing on Ge404 based 80 new orders of LCA Mk1A (advanced) version.
Logic says better focus on 99 engines 404 we procured and be happy with that only.. Dont increase that numbeer.. If majority of bird in excess of 150-200 (IAF and IN) combined need GE414 powerplant better focus on MK2 and bring simple commonality of engine pool and service/operations..

To me these 80 new orders proposed makes it look that MK2 will never meet timeline schedules ever and if we get say a total of 120 Mk1s/Mk1A birds we are ultimately reducing Mk2 numbers by almost 4 squadrons over time..

The worst is that even if LCA Mk1A gets an MLU, there is less than 5% chance of replacing the powerplant from 404 to 414.. On top 120 Mk1s needs at least minimum 240 404 engines (1 on board and 1 standby/replacement).. prudently that figure can go up to 360-400 GE 404 engines.. So does that make really any sense?

Dude are u for real . Migs will be retired by 2019 what options do u have ?

Wait another decade .

What kind of comment is this?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Migs will be retired by 2019 what options do u have

The year may be 2019 but we did know about Mig21s retirement has been long overdue right?? So should we accept a bird just bcz of that reason alone.. LCA project is long overdue.. we cannot deny that.. Whatever be the reasons, we did truly stretched the bison's uptill last bit of juice of its life..

i had said the whole thing from the perspective of engine procurement and the leverage GOI could ask for that. If you recall, we had originally procured 99 GE 404 Engines.. The fact of the dry thrust not being enough and we needing an upscale powerplant for naval version is a known fact in public forum for last 3 years plus. Thus the choice of GE 414 which has similar size (almost 95% similar size and attributes making it operationally much easier) but much higher DRY thrust.. Moreover it has 3 versions and a a higher uprated version is already there..

Ask yourself a simple question.. originally 99 GE 404 engines now say 300-400 GE 404Engines (if we consider new 80 MK1 Advance versions orders too) - Yet GE 404 will be still assembled in Chikan plant in Pune and there is absolutely no scope of any uprating as that involves R&D cost and time.. Moreover GE is clear that an uprated engine is already available in the same family .. the 414..

Now consider the other part of the argument.. we know we need a total of 200-250-300 LCA's (IAF and IN combined).. Thus there is a straight potential of 200+ 414 powerplant birds implying well over 600+ orders.. Thus, it gives us a chance to negotiate the "HOT" technology (desert weather extreme temperature)and perhaps a chance to ask for 50% plus local components in assembly (if not the full TOT perhaps 50% + except crystal blades).. The scope of this uprated engines in 600+ orders versus say 300 404 engines and yet needing 414 for naval LCA leaves lesser scope of negotiation.. I am not even considering the lesser weight and probably much better/improved performance in MK2 due to engine (414) and identification of weight reduction techniques from Mk1A..

The falling squadron strength is a reality. but lets not make LCA Mk1 the main bird of IAF light category just due to that reason alone.. We have waited so long to make a good product.. Lets have patience for few more years and get the bird which needs a large scale production in multiple variants.

 

[sathya]

Guys there are two other factors


GE 404in20 gives up some life for increased thrust

Other thing which I have read from some members comment is GE404 production is no more. How HAL will get 404 needs to be seen , may be from excess storage ?

 

[The Huskar]

Psychological move for attracting troll....

What move???

Well In my opinion TWR is For Dog Fight Fans which is In-probable in Modern ERA . My opinion Better Equip LCA with High End Passive IRST Sensors And Python 5 IRCCM

What we need right now is an efficient dogfighter.After Migs and Mirages are retired,we will be severely lacking on that front.Su-30MKI after upgradation to Super Sukhoi standard will be a semi stealth Air superiority fighter.God knows how many FGFA's and AMCA's are ee gonna purchase.All in all Tejas forms the perfect interceptor-dogfighter for IAF.

So why not go for 80+ tejas improved version and keep the lime running ... Govt need to push it down the throat of IAF indeed . Some thing is better than nothing

GOI must also excise caution.Tejas mk1A will only be viable if HAL follows throigh its promise of 1000 kg weight reduction and integration of a high T/R module AESA.Otherwise all it will ever be an overweight jet only good for LIFT training.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Lets get the 20 pre FOC Tejas going.

 

[halupridol]

Why so pessimistic bro.

realistic,,,tumar lagise neki je ihote paribo,,,mk2 2025 pisot hobo

What kind of comment is this?

oh,i was joking,,,airforce shud accept this offer,,,this time dpsu serious,,they just took 5 years to realize that they r short on engineers for mk2,,but no problemo,,they came up wid the great idea of mk1A,,wow,integrate the imported radar n shed weight,it will be a beast,,but mk1 is already tht,,so it will be best in class,,Pakistan fear us now

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

The year may be 2019 but we did know about Mig21s retirement has been long overdue right?? So should we accept a bird just bcz of that reason alone.. LCA project is long overdue.. we cannot deny that.. Whatever be the reasons, we did truly stretched the bison's uptill last bit of juice of its life..

i had said the whole thing from the perspective of engine procurement and the leverage GOI could ask for that. If you recall, we had originally procured 99 GE 404 Engines.. The fact of the dry thrust not being enough and we needing an upscale powerplant for naval version is a known fact in public forum for last 3 years plus. Thus the choice of GE 414 which has similar size (almost 95% similar size and attributes making it operationally much easier) but much higher DRY thrust.. Moreover it has 3 versions and a a higher uprated version is already there..

Brother am really baffled by your this part of your argument . Yes I agree F404 is under powered . And we need to upgrade it to f414 . Don't you think it's was so easy to upgrade if it's so easy saying ? Our F414 upgrade will take 7 years for production piece ... that nearly 2022-2023 . It then you are happy with no light aircraft ? Leave alone the light category do we even have enough heavy fighters for two front war ? . If a desperate enemy on th West and insecure enemy on the east want to attack there won't be any favorable time than time span of 2018-2022 . Airforce from core substance for securing our ground force simple as that .

Ask yourself a simple question.. originally 99 GE 404 engines now say 300-400 GE 404Engines (if we consider new 80 MK1 Advance versions orders too) - Yet GE 404 will be still assembled in Chikan plant in Pune and there is absolutely no scope of any uprating as that involves R&D cost and time.. Moreover GE is clear that an uprated engine is already available in the same family .. the 414..

Dude my center question . DO YOU EVEN HAVE A FIGHTER WHICH CAN FLY F414 ? NOOOOOOOOO ... We instead have to buy cheap replacement which is tejas mk1p . It's not our choice but one and only option . Or else we should shed our foreign reserve on Gripin or F16 which we won't . So get real ... Come down to earth from your wonder land where MK2 is up and flying for sorties .. think Bro we can't afford to risk our security ... SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING. That too if that something comes with higher T2W with extra load shed and if with as one member mentioned about uprating then go for it with huge Nameste !!!!

Now consider the other part of the argument.. we know we need a total of 200-250-300 LCA's (IAF and IN combined).. Thus there is a straight potential of 200+ 414 powerplant birds implying well over 600+ orders.. Thus, it gives us a chance to negotiate the "HOT" technology (desert weather extreme temperature)and perhaps a chance to ask for 50% plus local components in assembly (if not the full TOT perhaps 50% + except crystal blades).. The scope of this uprated engines in 600+ orders versus say 300 404 engines and yet needing 414 for naval LCA leaves lesser scope of negotiation.. I am not even considering the lesser weight and probably much better/improved performance in MK2 due to engine (414) and identification of weight reduction techniques from Mk1A..

Oh god .. The problem with you is very simple you just hoping on article and paper fighter . 300-600 tejas ? Are you serious ? By that time India will enter into joint production of 6th generation fighters or at least 5 ++ gen jets . As radar technology will always be ahead of fighter generation that's their sole purpose of having one . As we face technological advanced China we our airforce look to have technological advancement against our enemies . We are shedding our foreign reserves for some 60 PAKFA just because we know Chinese will get their first j20 by 2017 . It's all well calculated by NSA and IAF but you simply comes up with some imaginary numbers for 4th gen fighter ? . May be MK2 will be upgraded to MK2 p later on with stealth features . Again its all imaginary. What we need till 2025 is just a fighter which can be mass produced and so on MK1-40 MK1P-40 till MK2 arrives . No wrong I spending more to upgrade capabilities of 80 fighters with uprated engines or buying more engines

The falling squadron strength is a reality. but lets not make LCA Mk1 the main bird of IAF light category just due to that reason alone.. We have waited so long to make a good product.. Lets have patience for few more years and get the bird which needs a large scale production in multiple variants.

It's not about having fancy toys in your inventory . But having something to defend your territory . We can't afford to buy 300 rafale or another 300 sukois . It will tank on our economy very big time ...

This is a sensible move . What's wrong in having 4++ gen MK1-P for point defence ? And making sure territory is secured with cheap and mass produced tejas ? Get real MK2 with powerful engine is 7/8 years aways . FGFA is also 8 years away . AMCA our only bet for the future is also 8/10 years away . And we can't afford to buy another 300 PAKFA additional to some 200 FGFA .. All we need is a low end fighter . When it comes with AESA EW suit Israeli weapons American engine marketing. . JUST GO FOR IT . WHEN MK2 ARRIVES WE WILL MAKE ANOTHER LARGE BATCH TO MAKE THE NUMBERS BUT TILL THEN EAT WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD ....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Brother am really baffled by your this part of your argument . Yes I agree F404 is under powered . And we need to upgrade it to f414 . Don't you think it's was so easy to upgrade if it's so easy saying ? Our F414 upgrade will take 7 years for production piece ... that nearly 2022-2023 . It then you are happy with no light aircraft ? Leave alone the light category do we even have enough heavy fighters for two front war ? . If a desperate enemy on th West and insecure enemy on the east want to attack there won't be any favorable time than time span of 2018-2022 . Airforce from core substance for securing our ground force simple as that .

Dude my center question . DO YOU EVEN HAVE A FIGHTER WHICH CAN FLY F414 ? NOOOOOOOOO ... We instead have to buy cheap replacement which is tejas mk1p . It's not our choice but one and only option . Or else we should shed our foreign reserve on Gripin or F16 which we won't . So get real ... Come down to earth from your wonder land where MK2 is up and flying for sorties .. think Bro we can't afford to risk our security ... SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING. That too if that something comes with higher T2W with extra load shed and if with as one member mentioned about uprating then go for it with huge Nameste !!!!

Oh god .. The problem with you is very simple you just hoping on article and paper fighter . 300-600 tejas ? Are you serious ? By that time India will enter into joint production of 6th generation fighters or at least 5 ++ gen jets . As radar technology will always be ahead of fighter generation that's their sole purpose of having one . As we face technological advanced China we our airforce look to have technological advancement against our enemies . We are shedding our foreign reserves for some 60 PAKFA just because we know Chinese will get their first j20 by 2017 . It's all well calculated by NSA and IAF but you simply comes up with some imaginary numbers for 4th gen fighter ? . May be MK2 will be upgraded to MK2 p later on with stealth features . Again its all imaginary. What we need till 2025 is just a fighter which can be mass produced and so on MK1-40 MK1P-40 till MK2 arrives . No wrong I spending more to upgrade capabilities of 80 fighters with uprated engines or buying more engines

It's not about having fancy toys in your inventory . But having something to defend your territory . We can't afford to buy 300 rafale or another 300 sukois . It will tank on our economy very big time ...

This is a sensible move . What's wrong in having 4++ gen MK1-P for point defence ? And making sure territory is secured with cheap and mass produced tejas ? Get real MK2 with powerful engine is 7/8 years aways . FGFA is also 8 years away . AMCA our only bet for the future is also 8/10 years away . And we can't afford to buy another 300 PAKFA additional to some 200 FGFA .. All we need is a low end fighter . When it comes with AESA EW suit Israeli weapons American engine marketing. . JUST GO FOR IT . WHEN MK2 ARRIVES WE WILL MAKE ANOTHER LARGE BATCH TO MAKE THE NUMBERS BUT TILL THEN EAT WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD ....

In the whole point of argument and discussion you did not get my view point at all..
i never said 300-600 tejas.. Rather i said 200-250-300 tejas.. One single engine and one replacement and in a lifetime with average flying hours implying minimum 2-3 replacements.. Thus the figure 200 original + 200 replacement +200 standby so a minimum of 600+ engines.. all along i am talking on powerplant based numbers..

Secondly, you are correct that uptill 2023 without good light category bird and a retirement of bisons we would be facing a shortage.. Then again whatever we have is enough even at that instant for one side of border.... The other side of border is immaterial as unless we have minimum of 50+ squadrons and preferably 60 sqds as mentioned for a proper 2 front war with most birds in 4++ category we would never win nor defend.. interestingly, the hostility most folks believe between 2 great economic powers is diminishing step by step.. an example is the approval of Redmi investment and Foxconn investments along with a massive scope of shifting the manufacturing services from one economy to ours .. (which is happening and is slowly getting visible)

I have nothing against Mk1P or Mk1A.. The only issue is the whole MOD/IAF/HAL/ADA nexus boasted that for every problem/Challenging issues of Mk1, the solution is Mk2... Truly its a paper plane atm.. But brother, as we all know LCA navy anyways needs 414 even for its basic Mk1 version, thus it made me look at 414 engine more.. 404 uprating is not possible beyond what they have already made..or else it would have been the first choice anyways..

Rest of discussion/arguments i really dont get as you are anyways colored by the numbers and thus the statement of 6th generation..

PAKFA/AMCA/MKI roles are completely different from LCA.. LCA is and always will remain to Point Defence or at max later to Limited interceptor or area coverage (A2G mode) for IA divisions.. PLA AF is anyways beyond numbers.. To understand that we have to first understand whats the core strength of our own squadrons.. Tejas/LCA is not an answer to help that.. It was always either get Rafale/EF/MKI or get 5G birds.. J20 influencing India's decision is again a far reaching estimation.. We are not even sure of Chinese 5th gen birds power plants capability to be truly called 5th Gen.. moreover India buying 65 Pakfa is also not official.. if it does awesome.. but then again the present Pakfa is not a complete 5th generation bird.. not untill it gets its new "heart" which is still under making.

I respect your opinion but MK1 at present form or with the targeted 1000 kgs reduction by 2017 (too challenging IMO for HAL and wont meet timelines as usual) is still not very appealing.... Unless of course, the resultant performance really quantifies in such a big way that we dont bother about paper plane Mk2 and accept MK1P/A only in big numbers as we are satisfied by its over all performance.. Truly we are not sure the resultant performance other than expecting a much improved one over shedding of excess weight. (theoretically yes its gonna improve but practically by how much % or factor we dont know as of yet)

thats the way i see.. if 80 are ordered nice so Mk1s becomes 120 .. good.. if 80 are not ordered - better.. logic says that at least..

 

[Indian Patriot]

if HAL manages to shed 1000 kilos off Tejas.

How do you shed of THOUSAND kilos from a light combat aircraft?

get an expert consultant ( from Israel or gripen/SAAB) on board and handover the blue print to some private company.

And by doing so the sarkari karmacharis at HAL and DRDO will be out of jobs and salary and they will start hartal.

IAF can only digest foreign Mal hahaha good going IAF .

tell HAL to design desi maal or desi engine for tejas and tell DRDO to design desi engines, ammunition and gun for the arjun.

 

[HariPrasad]

A very smart move by HAL to compel IAF to buy the utterly worthless LCA Mk1.

Indian Airforce chief says that Tejas will meet their requirement and you are trolling here.

Tejas Mk 1A variant, which is marginally more proficient than the existing Mk 1.

No, The proposed MK1 is coming with robust EW, 800 KG Lower Weight and AESA. This is not marginally proficient. HAL says that it shall almost meet all GSQR of Indian air force. This is simply a great news. The slashing of weight shall improve the T/W ratio by 14%. With some aerodynamic improvements, Plane can improve to a new level. If HAL work sincerely, they can bring of board new MK1A.