What's new

Defending Sind

In 1971 India had its 11 and 12 Divisions, an independent infantry brigade, and a couple of extra tank regiments in the area. It launched 11 Division on the Barmer- Chor axis while 12 Division was to attack from Tanot to Islamgarh and Reti. The 340 (I) Brigade appears to have looked after the Kutch sector.

11 Division’s attack succeeded at first, because the Pakistanis simply fell back on Naya Chor, and then dug in. The Indian attack ground to a halt.

12 Division was thrown off its schedule by a Pakistani attack from the Reti side, consisting of a brigade of 33 Division and a tank regiment. The force was attacked by a Hunter fighter detachment from Jodhpur and withdrew after suffering heavy losses but with its mission accomplished: 12 Division was no more a factor in the war.

India’s several raids into Pakistani Kutch were successful in boosting Indian morale, but could be of no strategic value because of the vast emptiness of the area.

Even when backed up to Naya Chor, Pakistan did not commit any brigade other than the one from 33 Division used in the spoiling attack at Islamgarh. It utilized, instead, mixed ad hoc forces’ consisting of a few companies of regulars, Rangers, and Mujahids. Pakistan has always been especially adept at economically employing such forces to delay India’s advances while conserving i ts regulars. It was thus able to keep in reserve almost its entire forces in Sind.

The operational problem in the Great Indian Desert is, simply, the sand that lies upto 7 meters deep. In the Mideast and North African Deserts the sand cover is shallow. Bulldozers can quickly sweep paths for advancing troops. Wide ranging maneuver is possible, to the extent that the desert actions of World War 2 have been compared to naval battles finding a flank was always troublesome, because both sides would keep going south of each other.

Tracked vehicles have a low footprint - the weight of a 40-ton T-72 tank is distributed along several square meters of tracks, thus reducing pressure on sand to less than that of a two-ton jeep. The jeep will sink into the sand, the tank will float.

Tracked vehicles can move freely in the desert, but not so their wheeled support and the un-mechanized infantry. Some mobility is provided by low-pressure tired vehicle and by aluminum track-ways. The latter is laid at a pace of about 2-3 kilometers an hour by specially equipped vehicles.

There is a difference, however, in laying a few kilometers of matting to help a division across sandy stretches, and laying matting to allow two corps to advance, and two more to operate on their flanks, to distances of hundreds of kilometers.

If the matting stayed laid, there might still be some reasonable prospects of supporting a quarter of a million troops in the desert, provided a very large engineer contingent is available. But because the sand is so deep, it shifts easily under the movement of heavy vehicles, wind and its own internal dynamics. This means the roadways have to be constantly maintained and re-laid.

Once Bikaner-Suratgarh railway line was being re-laid, an Indian newspaper article mentioned a 15-day sandstorm that halted all work. One hates to think what that would do to 40,000 vehicles in the desert.

During the early days of the 1971 War, Mr. K. Subhramanyam suggested that the success in the desert should be reinforced. As advances in other sectors were non-existent or slow, a third division should be committed to the desert. He was told that this was impossible, because our desert terrain required specialized equipment and training: forces from other sectors would not be able to function in this environment at such short notice.
 
.
In 1971 India had its 11 and 12 Divisions, an independent infantry brigade, and a couple of extra tank regiments in the area. It launched 11 Division on the Barmer- Chor axis while 12 Division was to attack from Tanot to Islamgarh and Reti. The 340 (I) Brigade appears to have looked after the Kutch sector.

11 Division’s attack succeeded at first, because the Pakistanis simply fell back on Naya Chor, and then dug in. The Indian attack ground to a halt.

12 Division was thrown off its schedule by a Pakistani attack from the Reti side, consisting of a brigade of 33 Division and a tank regiment. The force was attacked by a Hunter fighter detachment from Jodhpur and withdrew after suffering heavy losses but with its mission accomplished: 12 Division was no more a factor in the war.

India’s several raids into Pakistani Kutch were successful in boosting Indian morale, but could be of no strategic value because of the vast emptiness of the area.

Even when backed up to Naya Chor, Pakistan did not commit any brigade other than the one from 33 Division used in the spoiling attack at Islamgarh. It utilized, instead, mixed ad hoc forces’ consisting of a few companies of regulars, Rangers, and Mujahids. Pakistan has always been especially adept at economically employing such forces to delay India’s advances while conserving i ts regulars. It was thus able to keep in reserve almost its entire forces in Sind.

The operational problem in the Great Indian Desert is, simply, the sand that lies upto 7 meters deep. In the Mideast and North African Deserts the sand cover is shallow. Bulldozers can quickly sweep paths for advancing troops. Wide ranging maneuver is possible, to the extent that the desert actions of World War 2 have been compared to naval battles finding a flank was always troublesome, because both sides would keep going south of each other.

Tracked vehicles have a low footprint - the weight of a 40-ton T-72 tank is distributed along several square meters of tracks, thus reducing pressure on sand to less than that of a two-ton jeep. The jeep will sink into the sand, the tank will float.

Tracked vehicles can move freely in the desert, but not so their wheeled support and the un-mechanized infantry. Some mobility is provided by low-pressure tired vehicle and by aluminum track-ways. The latter is laid at a pace of about 2-3 kilometers an hour by specially equipped vehicles.

There is a difference, however, in laying a few kilometers of matting to help a division across sandy stretches, and laying matting to allow two corps to advance, and two more to operate on their flanks, to distances of hundreds of kilometers.

If the matting stayed laid, there might still be some reasonable prospects of supporting a quarter of a million troops in the desert, provided a very large engineer contingent is available. But because the sand is so deep, it shifts easily under the movement of heavy vehicles, wind and its own internal dynamics. This means the roadways have to be constantly maintained and re-laid.

Once Bikaner-Suratgarh railway line was being re-laid, an Indian newspaper article mentioned a 15-day sandstorm that halted all work. One hates to think what that would do to 40,000 vehicles in the desert.

During the early days of the 1971 War, Mr. K. Subhramanyam suggested that the success in the desert should be reinforced. As advances in other sectors were non-existent or slow, a third division should be committed to the desert. He was told that this was impossible, because our desert terrain required specialized equipment and training: forces from other sectors would not be able to function in this environment at such short notice.

Brilliant summing up and analysis.

I would add to this several institutional and technical handicaps that may prevent a fast moving Indian Corps manouvre.

1) The night blindness of not only Indian tanks and IFVs, but lack of NVGs at a army wide level
2) Lack of organic SPHs in numbers for the Corps
3) Critical lack of ammunition, which may of been made more critical now as much has been moved to border with China

The above leads me to think Indian movement maybe slower and more cautious then we may anticipate, which in turn could lead to several opportunities for a flanking movement by Pak Armour
 
.
@PanzerKiel sir, many thanks for sharing your deep knowledge with us. It would help the discussion a lot if we could have realistic assessment of Indian capabilities in the modern time.

1. Mechanized Infantry - My knowledge is based on Wikipedia which says Indian Mechanized Infantry Regiment comprises tracked, 6 wheel and 8 wheel IFVs. Especially the BMPs are amphibious, able to cross water obstacles. How effective would these be in Sind?

2. Mobile SAMs - They are in the process of developing Akash. We could question their technical capabilities, but they have a long history of buying foreign equipment when local development fails. Their work on Akash shows their long term planning. In any battle in Sind, their formations will be accompanied by mobile SAMs of some variety.

3. Globemasters and Chinooks - In case Pakistani commanders make the mistake of trading time for space, Indian armor, mechanized infantry, and mobile SAMs will setup a defence perimeter and construct a quick runway strip for the Globemasters. If Dhaka airport can be repaired in 6 hours in 1971, a landing strip for Globemasters can be constructed in 2020 and beyond. They currently don't have a large inventory of Chinooks, but let's assume by the time the attack comes, they have a large inventory. This solves their mobility problem. With the defence perimeter setup, low flying Chinooks can carry M777s, supplies, and troops (let's forget that M777s are meant for the mountains for a moment).

4. With northern approaches secured, amphibious assaults in the marshland along with soldiers/commandos riding light vehicles can cause havoc and take away our coastline.

Can you please comment on these points, to the extent you are allowed to comment?
 
.
India have the resources to attack at multiple locations but what india cannot control is the counter offensive by Pakistan. There is an army 5 times bigger than our regular army that will be ready for jihad at a moment's notice, already trained. The waves of mujahideen will be next.

I'd like to think the same but i'm not so sure. Apart from some tribal fighters with arms, the rest of us even when we do have arms have them as show peices and security alarms. How many people are even trained to fire their weapons? Or can fire them on the move? or have any militia training? In the US these redneck racists are doing full fauji style training.
 
.
I'd like to think the same but i'm not so sure. Apart from some tribal fighters with arms, the rest of us even when we do have arms have them as show peices and security alarms. How many people are even trained to fire their weapons? Or can fire them on the move? or have any militia training? In the US these redneck racists are doing full fauji style training.
In Karachi we all know how to operate many firearms. Most if not all houses are armed. Elite class have their own private bodyguard force.
 
.
In Karachi we all know how to operate many firearms. Most if not all houses are armed. Elite class have their own private bodyguard force.

So Pakistan more or less has a militia of 50 million or so? Seems like that would be a death trap for any invading or occupying army.
 
. .
Indian advance under the cover of MOBILE S - 400s and other similar SAMs being inducted ( Both foreign and domestic ) are going to give a QUALITATIVE EDGE to which there currently is NO Counter available within our resources.

Counting on the incompetence and bad luck of the enemy, to win a war, isn't going to help us any further in the near future.

The enemy is getting stronger ECONOMICALLY And NOW has the DEEP pockets to buy itself the victory that it thinks was delayed due to the NUCLEAR deterrence.

We as a nation are NOT advancing or moving ahead as we should have been doing as other countries in the region.

We CAN'T replace the losses, if incurred, as fast as our enemy.

If battles can be fought in Siachen and the mountains of the Hindu Kush, with regards to China vs India, then surely technological breakthroughs and achievements will make it possible, that which was NOT possible in 65 or 71.

China tested its S 400 And they were impressed UNOFFICIALLY ofcouse. Our F 16s can't do much against S 400 be it SEAD or DEAD.


Snatching anything from the enemy, be it valuable or invaluable, is a victory in itself.
 
.
Ofcouse there are ways to counter S 400 but are we as advanced as the US in maneuvering missiles in eneny territory with sustained electronic jamming?
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20201002-231130.png
    Screenshot_20201002-231130.png
    182.3 KB · Views: 43
  • Screenshot_20201002-231121.png
    Screenshot_20201002-231121.png
    190.5 KB · Views: 49
.
Indian advance under the cover of MOBILE S - 400s and other similar SAMs being inducted ( Both foreign and domestic ) are going to give a QUALITATIVE EDGE to which there currently is NO Counter available within our resources.

S400 are for defense of strategic locations inside India and not for coming into enemy territory with invading Indian forces
 
.
@PanzerKiel sir, many thanks for sharing your deep knowledge with us. It would help the discussion a lot if we could have realistic assessment of Indian capabilities in the modern time.

1. Mechanized Infantry - My knowledge is based on Wikipedia which says Indian Mechanized Infantry Regiment comprises tracked, 6 wheel and 8 wheel IFVs. Especially the BMPs are amphibious, able to cross water obstacles. How effective would these be in Sind?

2. Mobile SAMs - They are in the process of developing Akash. We could question their technical capabilities, but they have a long history of buying foreign equipment when local development fails. Their work on Akash shows their long term planning. In any battle in Sind, their formations will be accompanied by mobile SAMs of some variety.

3. Globemasters and Chinooks - In case Pakistani commanders make the mistake of trading time for space, Indian armor, mechanized infantry, and mobile SAMs will setup a defence perimeter and construct a quick runway strip for the Globemasters. If Dhaka airport can be repaired in 6 hours in 1971, a landing strip for Globemasters can be constructed in 2020 and beyond. They currently don't have a large inventory of Chinooks, but let's assume by the time the attack comes, they have a large inventory. This solves their mobility problem. With the defence perimeter setup, low flying Chinooks can carry M777s, supplies, and troops (let's forget that M777s are meant for the mountains for a moment).

4. With northern approaches secured, amphibious assaults in the marshland along with soldiers/commandos riding light vehicles can cause havoc and take away our coastline.

Can you please comment on these points, to the extent you are allowed to comment?
PanzerKiel sir has briefly but nicely described the war scenarios in south Punjab and Sind during both the 65 and 71 wars. Your questions are mainly related to the current situation and, I believe, discussing military strategies (while answering these questions) on a public forum might not be appropriate. I think we should avoid to have such discussions on this forum as how Pak military plans to handle different scenarios in future war with India (a war that might not be that distant reality).
 
.
Yes, seems like we cannot win a manouvre war as some posters have decided India will have 100 Chinooks by then, be able to deliver a Armoured regiment by air in a few days with only 10 C-17s in the middle of the Thar desert with all their supporting infantry, SPH, ammo and fuel, and this all over contested air space. These people dress themselves up as serious posters and some of us take the bait....
 
.
I'd like to think the same but i'm not so sure. Apart from some tribal fighters with arms, the rest of us even when we do have arms have them as show peices and security alarms. How many people are even trained to fire their weapons? Or can fire them on the move? or have any militia training? In the US these redneck racists are doing full fauji style training.

That is why NCC training for college students need to be revived. Still just in the tribal areas alone there are about half a million armed and trained men. The northern area pashtuns also are warriors and have good skills, it was proven in recent fights between local lashkars and TTP. These number more than a million.
 
.
PanzerKiel sir has briefly but nicely described the war scenarios in south Punjab and Sind during both the 65 and 71 wars. Your questions are mainly related to the current situation and, I believe, discussing military strategies (while answering these questions) on a public forum might not be appropriate. I think we should avoid to have such discussions on this forum as how Pak military plans to handle different scenarios in future war with India (a war that might not be that distant reality).

Don't worry, I have reached operational consensus with him. He may reply as appropriate, or he may not even reply. I am happy in both cases. At the very least, it allows me to put forward my concerns in front of a high ranking military official. And I must say, thanks to this forum, it is a privilege we all enjoy now.
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom