Defence ministry to clear military deals worth Rs 5,000-cr

[kaykay]

Better to go with Scorpenes it is right in track with our on AIP and i dnt think Kilo come with any AIP adding AIP is more delay

May be govt want 2 kilos in shortest time possible? Ordering more scorpene is already on cards but this won't speed up the production.

 

[SP!TF!R3]

so,what is the present "Possibilities" of new Submarine Acquisition??

2 New KILOs in short time
4 new Scorpene as part of P-75
1-2 new Akula-II SSNs

if materialized,this is going to give serious boost in Navy's underwater capability.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

2 more Kilo advance may be to test Pipavav capabilities instead of direct order from Russian shipyards. This would clearly test out the Russian tie up with Pipavav and amount of technology transfer as well as abilities of Pipavav to deliver a def project of higher magnitude on time.

Yasen (SSN) and Borei (SSBN) even if we want, it will be costly. Perhaps we can try getting something similar to Borei for our heavier class SSBNs. A third N sub lease either of the incomplete SSN sub which will take 3-4 years is what i feel is more legitimate in nature then to look for a new Yasen. The reason being leasing new subs should have at least 2-3 years gap like Chakra in 2012 and new ones now in 2015/16 looks reasonable so next one should be ready b 2019/2020 which means the incomplete SSN hull is more attractive. Especially since its a long and never ending (unoffcially) lease.

I believe Yasen/Borei even though thats a very very high jumpl in capabilities of IN if we are getting then we should get via our SSN/SSBN ATV projects not via lease model.

SSKs Kilo (9 - (5 upgraded with LACM planned and infuture i see all 9 upgraded) +6 scorpenes+3-4 follow on ons +2 kilo advanced ) = 11 kilos+9-10 scorpenes = 20-21 SSKs for next 20 years is reasonable.

Next should be a fleet of dedicated 6-10 SSNs
6 SSBN with 8 K4
6 SSBN (heavy) 12-16 K5
if we do want some more firepower perhaps look for 4-6 SSGN (but i doubt that as LACM N Tipped may be reasonably available via Kilos and Scorpenes)

 

[Agent_47]

2 more Kilo advance may be to test Pipavav capabilities instead of direct order from Russian shipyards. This would clearly test out the Russian tie up with Pipavav and amount of technology transfer as well as abilities of Pipavav to deliver a def project of higher magnitude on time.

I don't think so, IN is looking for shortest and cheapest possible ways to get two more SSKs because Project 75I is delayed. Now that PN has ordered 8 SSKs alarm is sounding at MoD. It is either 2 scorpions or Kilo not any more.

Scorpians = fast but not cheap. ( we paid around $700 million for one)
improved kilo = fast and cheap ( around $350 million i think)

No logistic problems and future proof in both cases. But if we go for Pipanav then the advantage of kilo being both cheap and fast will be gone.

About leasing Akula, it is going only according to plan.In 90's we funded fabrication of two new hulls for the same leasing purpose. One we got another on the way. no need for new ideas.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I don't think so, IN is looking for shortest and cheapest possible ways to get two more SSKs because Project 75I is delayed. Now that PN has ordered 8 SSKs alarm is sounding at MoD. It is either 2 scorpions or Kilo not any more.

Scorpians = fast but not cheap. ( we paid around $700 million for one)
improved kilo = fast and cheap ( around $350 million i think)

No logistic problems and future proof in both cases. But if we go for Pipanav then the advantage of kilo being both cheap and fast will be gone.

About leasing Akula, it is going only according to plan.In 90's we funded fabrication of two new hulls for the same leasing purpose. One we got another on the way. no need for new ideas.

Logic does say directly from Russia but dont know if DM MP will agree to that logic.. Expecially as Pipavav has been going gungho in analyst presentations which i did attend where they stated they have offered to GOI a proposal to build 12-15 improved kilo subs with a cost of $350-400 Mn per sub in a record time.
So i was hooping that instead of such a outright big order better test it with 2 and also give the upgradation locally here only in the regional MRO.

Note: Attended in financial capacity (finance industry professional) not from any defense related firm or lobby

 

[migflug]

If this happens p75i is.dead . we are having 3extra scorpene+2kilo which means we may directly jump to indegineous ssk. All these sub may take atleast 5years ,around the same time we will also start building ssn. Massive boost to navy

 

[Agent_47]

Logic does say directly from Russia but dont know if DM MP will agree to that logic.. Expecially as Pipavav has been going gungho in analyst presentations which i did attend where they stated they have offered to GOI a proposal to build 12-15 improved kilo subs with a cost of $350-400 Mn per sub in a record time.
So i was hooping that instead of such a outright big order better test it with 2 and also give the upgradation locally here only in the regional MRO.

Note: Attended in financial capacity (finance industry professional) not from any defense related firm or lobby

IN's forecasted SSK requirements are limited. We will not go for a foreign sub in bulk. improved kilos are not a perfect solution considering INs future requirements and base design age.
Also remember project 76, the end game here is indian designed SSK not import.

If this happens p75i is.dead . we are having 3extra scorpene+2kilo which means we may directly jump to indegineous ssk. All these sub may take atleast 5years ,around the same time we will also start building ssn. Massive boost to navy

Again, it is either scorpian or improved kilo not both. This is just a stopgap.
Project 75I is not dead, just delayed. P75I requirements are for bigger and more advanced subs and cannot be replaced with these two types.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Very good news

The Scorpenes are taking a lot of time

The New KILO class are quite good they have been upgraded
and are definitely better than Chinese Submarines which Pakistan is buying

We need to account for the 8 new Pakistani Submarines

6+4 P75 follow on and 2 kilos. 9 upgraded Kilos. 2 SSN on lease, 4 Upgraded German boats, 6P75 I by 2022 well all of these before 2022/2023.

Planned Excluded 3-4 Arihant class SSBN, 6 indigenous SSK. 4-5 bigger SSBN.

It's no secret once P75I or our own SSN or SSK completed follow on will be followed to replace older kilos and German boats. To keep the supply line running for the next 50 years with exports to our friendly nations like Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore etc.

Sky is the limit. We just need another 10 good Modi PM years. Nothing more nothing less.

If this happens p75i is.dead . we are having 3extra scorpene+2kilo which means we may directly jump to indegineous ssk. All these sub may take atleast 5years ,around the same time we will also start building ssn. Massive boost to navy

LOL seriously? P75 I is mainly for a reason. For our indigenous modern SSK. Our SSK will start in midway of P75I. Not before that

so,what is the present "Possibilities" of new Submarine Acquisition??

2 New KILOs in short time
4 new Scorpene as part of P-75
1-2 new Akula-II SSNs

if materialized,this is going to give serious boost in Navy's underwater capability.

Check my above comments

 

[Abingdonboy]

NEW DELHI: The government is set to clear two major military purchases from Russia days before Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's visit to Moscow, including a comprehensive upgrade of India's Ilyushin transport aircraft fleet and the acquisition of 150 new armoured fighting vehicles.

Parrikar, who is set to leave for Russia on Friday, is also likely to discuss the possible acquisition of two new Kilo class submarines for the Indian Navy that is battling with a depleted underwaterfleet. India currently operates nine Kilo submarines under the Sindhughosh class and had lost one to a major explosion at the Mumbai harbour in 2013.

The two submarines are being offered as a quick option to fill gaps as St Petersburg already has a line of advanced Kilo class submarines under production for the Russian Navy as well as a Vietnamese order.

Sources told ET that a high powered committee on acquisitions is set to clear a Rs 4,250-crore project to Russia for the upgrade and enhancement of the air force's transport fleet of IL 78 and 76 aircraft. The project will not only increase the service life of the aircraft by up to 20 years but will also give both aircraft enhanced avionics.

More importantly, the upgrade will also involve fitting new engines to six of the IL 78 midair refuelers that will give the aircraft a longer range as well as the capability to carry extra fuel. The Indian fleet is likely to be fitted with new PS 90 engines that canincrease the load carrying capability by almost two tonne.
The air force has been particularly worried about its midair refuelers with a contract to purchase new generation tankers from Airbus under the Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) project stuck for over two years on pricing issues.

The other Russia-linked project likely to be cleared is for the purchase of 150 BMP 2/2K armoured fighting vehicles for the Indian Army. The project, worth.`950 crore, will be executed in India by the Ordnance Factory Board on license from Russia.

Parrikar is set to visit both Moscow and St Petersburg and would, among other things, set the agenda for Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia in December.

Read more at:
Defence ministry to clear military deals worth Rs 5,000-cr - The Economic Times

More DAC clearances, few CCS clearances= no tangible benefits for the military.


+ Why is the DM sitting on the MRTT deal?

4 More P 8 I and Ka 27 Helicopters

Forget about the Ka-27, the S-70B has been selected by the IN- the MoD/DM/DAC is sat idle on this deal.

so,what is the present "Possibilities" of new Submarine Acquisition??

2 New KILOs in short time
4 new Scorpene as part of P-75
1-2 new Akula-II SSNs

if materialized,this is going to give serious boost in Navy's underwater capability.

It's pretty clear the GoI/MoD is quietly killing off the P-75(I)- 2 more Kilos (if true) and 4 more Scorpenes basically negates the need for the P-75(I) (yes they won't have the same capabilities but that is a minor issue). It seems this is being done to focus on a new class of home made SSNs that the MoD has sanctioned.

 

[SP!TF!R3]

It's pretty clear the GoI/MoD is quietly killing off the P-75(I)- 2 more Kilos (if true) and 4 more Scorpenes basically negates the need for the P-75(I) (yes they won't have the same capabilities but that is a minor issue). It seems this is being done to focus on a new class of home made SSNs that the MoD has sanctioned.

I'm thinking about one thing....

if P-75I is dead,then it is going to clear like daylight that Indian Navy doesn't want to operate heavier Diesel Electric Submarines like Kilo/Soryu in large numbers,rather prefer lighter subs like Scorpene/Type-214 or such.KILOs will slowly going to be phased out in next 15-20 years or so,and then IN will virtually operate these light subs(+2 KILOs).Though traditionally India always used SSKs of such weight category,KILO is our first medium weight Diesel Electric Submarine.Previous Generation Foxtrot Class,Sishumar class and new Scorpenes are all in similar weight class.I wonder what advantages heavier Submarines provides(Like Kilo,Yuan,Qing or Soryu).

 

[Abingdonboy]

Now where did that Kilo class come from ? This govt. is really serious about acquisitions. Two new Kilo Class along with 3 additional Scorpene will certainly have huge calming effect. Good Job Mr. RM. You are perhaps the best RM we have ever got.

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. What has the DM actually done of significance? A lot of DAC clearances but few actual contract signings to date , a hell of a lot of critical deals are still to be cleared/signed (MRTT, S-70B, M777, MGS, Super MKI etc etc), 3 new tri-service commands are STILL holding fire pending official approval and this whilst the forces have actually laid the groundwork for them (as stated by the ACM)- what is the DM waiting for here?

There was a lot of hype around Mr Parrikar but he has failed to live up to it in my opinion.

I'm thinking about one thing....

if P-75I is dead,then it is going to clear like daylight that Indian Navy doesn't want to operate heavier Diesel Electric Submarines like Kilo/Soryu in large numbers,rather prefer lighter subs like Scorpene/Type-214 or such.KILOs will slowly going to be phased out in next 15-20 years or so,and then IN will virtually operate these light subs(+2 KILOs).Though traditionally India always used SSKs of such weight category,KILO is our first medium weight Diesel Electric Submarine.Previous Generation Foxtrot Class,Sishumar class and new Scorpenes are all in similar weight class.I wonder what advantages heavier Submarines provides(Like Kilo,Yuan,Qing or Soryu).

The IN's doctrine is quite clear IMHO, SSKs will be used to protect the coast and for shallow-water operations (hence there is little need for a particularly large fleet of them) whilst their deep water fleet will consist of heavy SSNs. What is the purpose of heavyweight SSKs if you can afford SSNs?

 

[kaykay]

More DAC clearances, few CCS clearances= no tangible benefits for the military.


+ Why is the DM sitting on the MRTT deal?


Forget about the Ka-27, the S-70B has been selected by the IN- the MoD/DM/DAC is sat idle on this deal.


It's pretty clear the GoI/MoD is quietly killing off the P-75(I)- 2 more Kilos (if true) and 4 more Scorpenes basically negates the need for the P-75(I) (yes they won't have the same capabilities but that is a minor issue). It seems this is being done to focus on a new class of home made SSNs that the MoD has sanctioned.

Yes It seems so. That won't be bad if you ask me. We'll get around 10 brand new Scorpenes and 2 new Kilos. Plus 5-6 upgrades Kilos and Shishumars will be operational for atleast 2030-35( once upgraded). Total around 17-18 ssk fleet which is not bad.

 

[Dash]

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. What has the DM actually done of significance? A lot of DAC clearances but few actual contract signings to date , a hell of a lot of critical deals are still to be cleared/signed (MRTT, S-70B, M777, MGS, Super MKI etc etc), 3 new tri-service commands are STILL holding fire pending official approval and this whilst the forces have actually laid the groundwork for them (as stated by the ACM)- what is the DM waiting for here?

There was a lot of hype around Mr Parrikar but he has failed to live up to it in my opinion.


The IN's doctrine is quite clear IMHO, SSKs will be used to protect the coast and for shallow-water operations (hence there is little need for a particularly large fleet of them) whilst their deep water fleet will consist of heavy SSNs. What is the purpose of heavyweight SSKs if you can afford SSNs?

Abingdonboy, the one that really need immediate attention has been cleared by DAC. Like the second line of subs, which is pending a RFP. If you mean MRCA then I would say this govt has got it right as its now beginning to make all sense as to what a deal it was. I liked Rafale but never liked French way of doing business.

Regarding MRTT its a no brainer that that deal is also a big ticket item and, judging from MRCA, its also getting introspected by MOD. S 70B might get cleared soon. M777 is NOT a priority when Army itself is not able to decide on a desi gun and that seems to be a problem for MOD, they will come to it sooner or later. Super MKI is still under discussion phase with IAF, and not tabled for clearance with MOD.

and at last, the 'Make in India' policy is very important for this govt, both for industry and politicaly also as the UPA is waiting with the trigger to fire upon the govt should it fail to comply with it. I remember RG saying that he is waiting for NDA to make a mistake in MRCA, he wants to then target the UPA cleared deal that was dissed by NDA when he finds a hole to drill.

Sum all that up and then you will realize that MP has done well. Atleast it was his idea we are seeing a lot of movement in LCA (the Mark 1A thing) which is good and IAF is taking the beating now which is good for them.

 

[saurav]

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. What has the DM actually done of significance? A lot of DAC clearances but few actual contract signings to date , a hell of a lot of critical deals are still to be cleared/signed (MRTT, S-70B, M777, MGS, Super MKI etc etc), 3 new tri-service commands are STILL holding fire pending official approval and this whilst the forces have actually laid the groundwork for them (as stated by the ACM)- what is the DM waiting for here?

There was a lot of hype around Mr Parrikar but he has failed to live up to it in my opinion.


The IN's doctrine is quite clear IMHO, SSKs will be used to protect the coast and for shallow-water operations (hence there is little need for a particularly large fleet of them) whilst their deep water fleet will consist of heavy SSNs. What is the purpose of heavyweight SSKs if you can afford SSNs?

Depends on how you want to look at it.

Contracts can not be signed right away because there is not enough fund available. Among the ones you mentioned, just S-70 is critical. Rest can wait for couple more years. I am sure S-70 will be signed soon enough. Its all about prioritizing the needs and imo he has done that brilliantly.

Tri-Service command in Andaman will require major investment. Ground work is going on. Its not a critical requirement and will be done when economy allows.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Regarding MRTT its a no brainer that that deal is also a big ticket item and, judging from MRCA, its also getting introspected by MOD.

Incorrect, the MRTT is holding fire for exactly the same ineptitude that so defined AK Antony- there is a BS connection to a 30+ year old Air India deal involving Airbus that is perennially stalling this deal. The DM simply needs to use his discretion instead of bowing to the same self-interest directive as his predecessor.

S 70B might get cleared soon.

"Might" isn't good enough. The Sea Kings are (some of them) touching 30+ years of service life (well beyond their original life span) AND their aren't enough of them meaning you have the absurd situation of having BILLION USD frigates and destroyers going to sea with empty hangers. This is at a time when the PLA(N) are aggressively probing the IOR and the PN are expanding their sub-surface fleet.

It simply isn't good enough, the S-70B deal should have been cleared months ago- it is mission critical.

M777 is NOT a priority when Army itself is not able to decide on a desi gun and that seems to be a problem for MOD, they will come to it sooner or later.

Incorrect, the M777s are critical for the MSC, they will be toothless without airmobile ULHs- there is no substitute. The IA had picked the M777 and it is up to the MoD to make it happen especially as they have cleared the CH-47F that the M777 is designed to be underslung from.

The importance of the M777 cannot be overstated.

Sum all that up and then you will realize that MP has done well. Atleast it was his idea we are seeing a lot of movement in LCA (the Mark 1A thing) which is good and IAF is taking the beating now which is good for them.

The DM had little to do with this, the Mk.1A/P/+ was always in the pipeline, to give him credit for having the "idea" is nonsensical mate.

Tri-Service command in Andaman will require major investment. Ground work is going on. Its not a critical requirement and will be done when economy allows.

I was not referencing the ANC but the three new proposed tri-service commands namely-Cyber, Special Operations and Space. According to the ACM these commands have all had the requisite groundwork laid by the forces but are holding fire awaiting formal MoD clearances- what exactly is holding the DM back? These commands have been in the pipeline for years and no urgency is being shown. To the GoI/MoD's credit the ANC is actually being strengthened to an impressive degree and will be an entirely more menacing prospect for India's enemies in as little as five years from now.