Defence & Diplomacy: Pakistan's Acquisition of F-16s

[Paksanity]

Sir let me tell you the reality of the state. Ever since Musharaff left and the democratically elected Gove came to power right up until Zara e Azb more than 50000 pakistani people lost their lives while our armed forces kept looking at the state. Armed forces take a oath which clearly asks them to protect Pakistan first and then the rest follows. If Air Force is so out of sorts and can't have their opnion heard then at least it should be brought to public so at least public know what's going on. Let it be known to public that requirement to defend the country is such and such and we are not given what's required. If public is not informed about the real situation how would they be able to have their say. Do you think a common Pakistani or our politicians know the core difference between 3rd generation and 4th generation aircraft. I'm sure there are few journalists out there who can bring this to media and debate can be started and then public can put pressure. If PAF keeps telling the country that thunders and f16s are answer to everything or keep ranting about "oh we don't have money" without clearly saying the "we need such and such aircraft which is required and we have asked the govt and this is there response and therefore we are STUCK with what we have." Please use the word STUCK more often so that public may know that PAF is not happy. It's not so difficult.
Look the reality is when ever we had democratically elected Govt PAF went downhill. During 90s era no dictator came to power and we didn't get any good aircraft. Musharaff came we got more f16s and jf 17 came to fleet as an addition. So it's on PAF to do something and let's not keep fixing the puntures.

You keep missing the point. Accountability works through elections. Any institution of state is accountable to government which in turn is accountable to people. That's how it works. PAF going against government in public is plain absurd and this has happened by the way. What did people do? Most were indifferent. Rest were like "oh now the military wants more money? They have already sucked the country dry of its resources!". Late 90s, Air Chief said publicly that he can not assure defence of Pakistan if resources are not allocated for new acquisitions. Then PAF drew up its modernisation plan called 2025. Government pledged resources. Zardari cancelled the funding and newspapers reported "PAF's plan 2025" has been suspended. What did people do? They voted PPP in at the first place. So dear, on rare occasions when PAF made it public that it needs new and modern arms, nobody noticed. Now you are not suggesting that PAF overthrow an elected government just because it won't give them money, are you?

Military is part of Pakistani society and its institutions. It will suffer or not with everyone else. Key is in the hands of people who vote or more importantly who do not.

 

[true]

what a biased interview, India is developing its defense not for Pakistan, its always has been for china, the territory dispute with china is larger than Kashmir, look at the Chinese military , its leagues apart. if anyone is a hegemony in Asia its china.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

No its u r obsession...
Tu Laakh chupay parday mien aye rooh-e-yazeedi...
Uryaan teri tasveer ko hum kertey rahien gey....

An Indian can hide behind flags but can't hide his / her hatred and obsession.

BS I always thought he was a pakistani.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

You keep missing the point. Accountability works through elections. Any institution of state is accountable to government which in turn is accountable to people. That's how it works. PAF going against government in public is plain aubsurd and this has happened by the way. What did people do? Most were indifferent. Rest were like "oh now the military wants more money? They have already sucked the country dry of its resources!". Late 90s, Air Chief said publicly that he can not assure defence of Pakistan if resources are not allocated for new acquisitions. Then PAF drew up its modernisation plan called 2025. Government pledged resources. Zardari cancelled the funding and newspapers reported "PAF's plan 2025" has been suspended. What did people do? They voted PPP in at the first place. So dear, on rare occasions when PAF made it public that it needs new and modern arms, nobody noticed. Now you are not suggesting that PAF overthrow an elected government just because it won't give them money, are you?

Military is part of Pakistani society and its institutions. It will suffer or not with everyone else. Key is in the hands of people who vote or more importantly who do not.

Two things
1. No one is asking them to overthrow the elected Govt. As you can see in this interview,two of the most experienced pilots sitting there and none of the two brought light too honesty that is hey f16s and jf 17 is not the ideal choice but just a stopgap and no mention of any other fighter jet at all all we got is that jf 17 is better than j10 because it didn't appear in couple of shows. It send a statement that PAF is satisfied with f16s and jf 17 and therefore no urgency even though India is buying everything and anything. All is good with f16s and jf 17 is what I got out of this interview. They had a chance. MR Latif goes to many TV shows if he can bring this point up again and again someone will listen. Again it goes back to taking the initiative and getting what you need to get the job done.
2. If PAF is so constitution abiding then better replace the pictures of Quiad e Adam with Bhuttos and all of those founding fathers of constitution. Because the founding father of this nation was clear and very clear to Airforce that PAF SHOULD BE SECOND TO NONE. He didn't say election commission should be second to none, he didn't say police should be second to none, he didn't say ground or naval forces should be second to none, he didn't say that democratic process should be second to none nor any such statement in regards to anyother institution. Instructions were in particular to PAF and that means serious words. So if the top heads can't do get it done then either replace the founding fathers pictures from wall or move out and give the space to someone else who can follow Quiad e Azam's instructions properly.
No one knows what aircraft was on the list for 2025 And even if Zardari cancelled the funds did the Air chief turned around and said Mr President if you won't provide the necessary funds then we can't get the job done how it can be done. Therefore PAF will go home and you can call on your layari boys to fly those jets. Thank you". Look if PAF won't make a fuss right now then the issue won't be able to brought to public. Merely saying that our PAF will do the job as it did in past when PAF had qualitative edge over enemy too if not a lot then little bit along with fine training. My friend half measures equals to no measures and country with weak airforce is on the mercy of enemy I didn't say it Quiad e a Azam did.

 

[ghauri05]

So no new platform for PAF...that's disappointing
PAF leadership is making a serious mistake here...Even if we induct j31..firstly it will take atleast a decade...and secondly it will offer nothing else than stealth feature(assuming it to be a really good stealth fighter)..the problem with PAF is...it lacks the ability of heavy fighter..with greater range and more payload...j31 is not gonna offer that....!!! So PAF will be in a real bad position..in coming years...
One possible solution can be..that we upgrade JF-17 t twin engine..no matter we have to redesign it from scrap...but that's the real need of hour for PAF...anything else is just gonna aggravate the situation for PAF...!!!

 

[Blue Marlin]

BS I always thought he was a pakistani.

can i be both, it saves the arguements

 

[ConcealCarry]

would you mind sharing what do "you" know?

@MastanKhan at least deals cars and raises some very interesting points and brings in a new dimension to the discussion with his out of the box questioning, which is a very healthy thing.

You on the other hand get personal and insult others because you don't agree with their line of questioning and just play the "yes man' armchair general.

All professional organizations encourage difference of opinion and tough questions to ensure all aspects of a problem are looked at and discussed in detail to ensure an optimal decision.

Web forums are meant of discussions on varying points of view, you as an administrator of the forum should be happy and encourage such questions as they give rise to healthy discussion. If everybody has to agree with and tow the official line, then people would listen to PTV news and not come on internet forums

No offense MK, but you are just playing the know all jerk here, lets be honest. You deal cars, that is what you know best. Leave this business to those who have earned their wings in the job.

 

[Paksanity]

Two things
1. No one is asking them to overthrow the elected Govt. As you can see in this interview,two of the most experienced pilots sitting there and none of the two brought light too honesty that is hey f16s and jf 17 is not the ideal choice but just a stopgap and no mention of any other fighter jet at all all we got is that jf 17 is better than j10 because it didn't appear in couple of shows. It send a statement that PAF is satisfied with f16s and jf 17 and therefore no urgency even though India is buying everything and anything. All is good with f16s and jf 17 is what I got out of this interview. They had a chance. MR Latif goes to many TV shows if he can bring this point up again and again someone will listen. Again it goes back to taking the initiative and getting what you need to get the job done.
2. If PAF is so constitution abiding then better replace the pictures of Quiad e Adam with Bhuttos and all of those founding fathers of constitution. Because the founding father of this nation was clear and very clear to Airforce that PAF SHOULD BE SECOND TO NONE. He didn't say election commission should be second to none, he didn't say police should be second to none, he didn't say ground or naval forces should be second to none, he didn't say that democratic process should be second to none nor any such statement in regards to anyother institution. Instructions were in particular to PAF and that means serious words. So if the top heads can't do get it done then either replace the founding fathers pictures from wall or move out and give the space to someone else who can follow Quiad e Azam's instructions properly.
No one knows what aircraft was on the list for 2025 And even if Zardari cancelled the funds did the Air chief turned around and said Mr President if you won't provide the necessary funds then we can't get the job done how it can be done. Therefore PAF will go home and you can call on your layari boys to fly those jets. Thank you". Look if PAF won't make a fuss right now then the issue won't be able to brought to public. Merely saying that our PAF will do the job as it did in past when PAF had qualitative edge over enemy too if not a lot then little bit along with fine training. My friend half measures equals to no measures and country with weak airforce is on the mercy of enemy I didn't say it Quiad e a Azam did.

1. OK, now you know PAF needs more budget. Let's see what you can do about it. Let's assume PAF generals couldn't convince government despite all efforts. Nation's destiny is in your hands now or those reading this.

2. Retired personnel are not spokesmen of military. They do not represent official line.

3. I believe F-16s and JF-17s are excellent choices and assure very good capability against threats to our nation. I also believe PAF is doing the right thing by making economical choices thus helping government to spare funds for development projects which are a much more urgent requirement at the moment. I would rather have JF-17s and F-16s than the economic collapse of Pakistan which will be much more disastrous.

4. Poor governance hurt everyone. PAF is no exception. Leave PAF. You know everything about PIA, Steel Mill, NEPRA and Railways. It is public knowledge. Let me know when public forces government to make the right choices in those sectors. Wake me up then.

5. Quaid's saying was what he wanted to see. Did he stop all other things and diverted all funds to PAF at that time? Don't even bother.

 

[ziaulislam]

The money argument doesn't hold. We do have millions of dollars each time to spend on the F-16. Even if we are paying a part of the deal. Yet, we never have the money to acquire a different platform. That just doesn't add up. It is all about setting priorities. Right now, the PAF has a bigger priority getting their hands on more F-16s. This is very apparent because after the Americans made the offer, the Pakistanis simply obliged.

Time has come to be a little more critical. Various experts and even the PAF has already admitted the dire need for an advanced aircraft. We either save up money for an advanced aircraft instead of each time doling out cash for more F-16s or just stop acknowledging that we have other requirements. We can't have both I'm afraid.

well if the 200$ aurgument is true than it does count.. i mean dont expect free launch from russia

what a biased interview, India is developing its defense not for Pakistan, its always has been for china, the territory dispute with china is larger than Kashmir, look at the Chinese military , its leagues apart. if anyone is a hegemony in Asia its china.

your argument would have been true had there been no history of 1971 which even Indians agree was unprovoked aggression against Pakistan

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

1. OK, now you know PAF needs more budget. Let's see what you can do about it. Let's assume PAF generals couldn't convince government despite all efforts. Nation's destiny is in your hands now or those reading this.

2. Retired personnel are not spokesmen of military. They do not represent official line.

3. I believe F-16s and JF-17s are excellent choices and assure very good capability against threats to our nation. I also believe PAF is doing the right thing by making economical choices thus helping government to spare funds for development projects which are a much more urgent requirement at the moment. I would rather have JF-17s and F-16s than the economic collapse of Pakistan which will be much more disastrous.

4. Poor governance hurt everyone. PAF is no exception. Leave PAF. You know everything about PIA, Steel Mill, NEPRA and Railways. It is public knowledge. Let me know when public forces government to make the right choices in those sectors. Wake me up then.

5. Quaid's saying was what he wanted to see. Did he stop all other things and diverted all funds to PAF at that time? Don't even bother.

Your point number 4 contradict your ownself. On one hand you want PAF to respect public mandate and then you say Public cant force govt to make the right choice so what is it?
Force the govt to divert funds from metro and all the other corruption projects. My dear friend i don't know about Saddam's Iraq but Qaddafi did build nice building and beautiful roads so did Asad now they lie in ruin a sight that reminds of stone age the only thing they forgot was to build a good airforce. They thought their ground troops can face any threat on the planet. Maybe Quaid e Azam for saw it and being a man of wisdom he instructed and reminded the airforce and its saved in history.
Regarding the retired personnel well that's the dillema if someone speaks he is retired and do not represent official line and the ones who are active and are in charge they are no where to be seen in public or won't speak because they are on active duty . O bahi koi tu bata da qaum ko.
My point still stands if those incharge cant handle then make a space for someone who can get the funds out of these corrupt politicians. Current Army chief did it and example is right infront of you.
Regarding if govt refuses and now what well if PAF chief offers resignation this condition i am 2000% sure it will raise alarm bells among all those who are concerned because those who are concerned and can put pressure on the govt will know the severity of the situation.
Regarding economic collapse well lets see why our economy is the way it is well mayb we were under sanctions and mayb world still thinks that we use the nuclear word a lot compare to responsible nuclear nations. If we have unmatched airforce atleast against India then we wont be using the nuclear word more often and mayb world can start easing up on us. just a thought
We respect, love and are crazy about PAF and its the pride of Pakistan and of every Pakistani. We respect the economical choices that they are making but the ground reality is with passage of everyday the threat to the east will grow more and more. I worry if things go south we don't want PAF to suffer with uncalled criticism just because they choose to be quiet and tried in whatever meager way.

 

[true]

well if the 200$ aurgument is true than it does count.. i mean dont expect free launch from russia


your argument would have been true had there been no history of 1971 which even Indians agree was unprovoked aggression against Pakistan

Unprovoked ? bullshit , you guys attacked us first, on 11 indian airbase.

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention the millions of Bangladeshis who illegally crossed the border to India , till this day there are more than 10-30 million illegal Bangladeshis living in India, east Indian states was incredibly poor itself even for 70s indian standards , the indian involvement was inevitable.

 

[ziaulislam]

Unprovoked ? bullshit , you guys attacked us first, on 11 indian airbase.

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention the millions of Bangladeshis who illegally crossed the border to India , till this day there are more than 10-30 million illegal Bangladeshis living in India, east Indian states was incredibly poor itself even for 70s indian standards , the indian involvement was inevitable.

haha..really..
do you even have common sense...
why would country entangled in civil war attack you

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Sir with utmost respect i would disagree if i may?
Let there be no doubt that Paf is very professional and well accomplished training wise. Therefore it is criminal to put such good pilots against an enemy who have total technological advantage over such brave men. Paf is doing fantastic job in operation on the western border against an enemy with no air power/defense. On the eastern front however things are different. I would like someone to write a piece in Pakistani newspaper asking our air and ground strategic think tanks and the questions along the lines stated below..
Sir we understand that India is in dire need of doing something to show the world little bit of their muscle and they will never take this chance against China but definitely a short quick knock out punch and then back against pakistan. It will prove to world that they are real power in a region. Wether they will succeed or not thats a different story but India will not wage a full invasion of Pakistan for long period because it will bring the Nukes in business. Modern history tell us that air dominance is very important in short swift war. So the question is are we going to defend from our borders and a ground counter offense only? Wouldn't it make sense that if India does try any such action Paf equipped with 450 plus 4th and 4,5 gen fighter take the fight to the enemy inside enemy territory and annihilate the front line bases and achieving total air dominance before ground forces launch counter offensive.( I would like the aircraft number to more close to 600 so that India will never dream about taking any such adventure).Having 500 plus front line fighters mean less work for ground forces. India will use maybe 65% of their air fleet for the start now thats atleast 400 plus aircraft. Imagine if they know that PAF have 600 plus aircraft they will never ever dare. We wont look good doing a preemptive strike in case because of our Kargil history so that means we start behind. If our air dominance fighters are engaging IAF between 400km deep in their territory(neither f16 nor jf17 can do that) while our single engine aircraft wreck hovac along the front lines. It forces Indian ground forces to fight with totally no air cover that means we fight on Indian territory.
Imagine if we had 60 odd more aircrafts in east Pakistan mayb just mayb things could've been different.90000 ground troops surrendered imagine if they did have more air support things could've been prolonged enough and you never know.
If Pakistan tell the world that hey guys i am going to have a big air fleet so that even if things go south between Pakistan and India we can prolong the war and it averts the nuclear risk and i think no one but India will complain.
In regards to $$ for air fleet well the thing is Paf is suppose to be our front line of defense that means first to meet the enemy and if the strategic heads cant get the $$ out of a corrupt Govt then these so called Strategic heads need to leave because they don't understand the importance of providing security of the people. Pakistani people already suffer with so many problems such as no electricity, high prices,no jobs, no investment in education, no investment in future. So if these PAF HEADS CANT GET THE MONEY OUT THESE POLITICIANS WHO SPEND THIS MONEY ON USELESS THINGS AND CORRUPTION THEN I AM SORRY TO SAY THEY NEED TO LEAVE AND LET COMPETENT PEOPLE COME AND TAKE THEIR PLACE OUR FRONT LINE OF DEFENSE SHOULD NOT BE IMMATURE AND TIMID TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. No more talk about traning of our boys we have no doubt about there traning their dedication and the strength but we question you who put the life of such brave men and security of the nation at risk by being too timid and taking the back seat. PAF needs to lead from front and just JF17 and F16s wont do the job until 5th gen comes. We need a third fighter and we need it now no more time wasting.
If we have big airfleet then we wont need tactical nuclear weapons in short war therfore saving 1000000s of Pakistani lives as well.
I need an answer from members here would you have 1 million ground troops with 300 odd f16s and jf17s or 500000 with 100 Su35s and 400 jf 17s and F16s? i think maintaining 500000 troops for whole year is equal to having additional 200 aircraft. Having big airforce means enemy will not try anything stupid therfore you wont have to deploy huge land forces.

Can't agree with you more........Air superiority is must for power projection and win over enemy. US jets stationed on AC enable US to decimate any country and rule over it skies. We need to build our navy and air force both simultaneously. India is enhancing its naval and air power like crazy and we are watching tamasha as usual.

Yes, i will go for 500000 with 100 Su35s and 400 jf 17s and F16s.........We should possess maximum number of jets as possible. Quantity has its own quality.

Unprovoked ? bullshit , you guys attacked us first, on 11 indian airbase.

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention the millions of Bangladeshis who illegally crossed the border to India , till this day there are more than 10-30 million illegal Bangladeshis living in India, east Indian states was incredibly poor itself even for 70s indian standards , the indian involvement was inevitable.

I told you again and again....don't write Indian history over here. You have never cared about Bengalis in first place. In fact, Bengalis are the ones who are the pioneers of Pakistan movement during British era. You hated them to your core. Just look how you country massacred Bengalis in Assam state of India which is termed as Nellie massacre. You just capitalizes the disturbance and interfered into Pakistan's internal affairs/matter. No justification can deny that fact.

Nellie massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No one wants to read Indian crap - who always act as innocent but in fact responsible of provoking disturbance in neighboring countries.

Ask Nepalese people.

 

[DrWatson775]

Two things
1. No one is asking them to overthrow the elected Govt. As you can see in this interview,two of the most experienced pilots sitting there and none of the two brought light too honesty that is hey f16s and jf 17 is not the ideal choice but just a stopgap and no mention of any other fighter jet at all all we got is that jf 17 is better than j10 because it didn't appear in couple of shows. It send a statement that PAF is satisfied with f16s and jf 17 and therefore no urgency even though India is buying everything and anything. All is good with f16s and jf 17 is what I got out of this interview. They had a chance. MR Latif goes to many TV shows if he can bring this point up again and again someone will listen. Again it goes back to taking the initiative and getting what you need to get the job done.
2. If PAF is so constitution abiding then better replace the pictures of Quiad e Adam with Bhuttos and all of those founding fathers of constitution. Because the founding father of this nation was clear and very clear to Airforce that PAF SHOULD BE SECOND TO NONE. He didn't say election commission should be second to none, he didn't say police should be second to none, he didn't say ground or naval forces should be second to none, he didn't say that democratic process should be second to none nor any such statement in regards to anyother institution. Instructions were in particular to PAF and that means serious words. So if the top heads can't do get it done then either replace the founding fathers pictures from wall or move out and give the space to someone else who can follow Quiad e Azam's instructions properly.
No one knows what aircraft was on the list for 2025 And even if Zardari cancelled the funds did the Air chief turned around and said Mr President if you won't provide the necessary funds then we can't get the job done how it can be done. Therefore PAF will go home and you can call on your layari boys to fly those jets. Thank you". Look if PAF won't make a fuss right now then the issue won't be able to brought to public. Merely saying that our PAF will do the job as it did in past when PAF had qualitative edge over enemy too if not a lot then little bit along with fine training. My friend half measures equals to no measures and country with weak airforce is on the mercy of enemy I didn't say it Quiad e a Azam did.

The PAF even changed their official mandate from being " Second to None" .... to "to provide, in synergy with other inter-services, the most efficient, assured and cost effective aerial Defence of Pakistan."

This is mainly because of the time wasted mucking around in the 90s and early 2000s. In 1965 the PAF had dedicated air superiority fighters(discussion around their effectiveness is another issue) with almost the latest air to air missiles and a dedicated bomber command/force. Compare that to the air force in the year 2000... absolutely pathetic(hold your horses blind patriots.... do some research before you start swinging here).

In the book "Psych of the Pakistan Air Force", the Indian Air Force in 1965 at the start of the war is described by Indian authors as a "glorious flying club" rather than being an efficient fighting machine. This was the state of PAF for 8 to 10 years - a glorious flying club - until block 52s, MLUs and F17s were inducted. Still PAF is a long way behind.

The loiter time of JF 17 is a big issue at present. Similarly the look-down shoot-down capability of KLJ7 is unknown(this is of utmost importance); I hope it is at least better the the block-15 F16s otherwise this platform will be significantly limited in air-air engagements.

I hope there is some plan in the works( and there is good chance there is no plan B - we have the 90s fiasco in front of us) otherwise prepare to negotiate with India from a position of significant weakness in the next two decades.

PAFs mission is to be SECOND TO NONE - if not in the world then in the region at least. You need to set much higher goals to reach a bare minimum acceptable level. Lowering your goal as PAF did is shooting yourself in the foot, then throwing away the gun and trying to sort out your opponent(who is standing there with a bazooka) with you bare hands.

 

[barbarosa]

PAF should have the various jets of the various countries in its fleet. It should not dependent on US only.