Decline of the Ottoman Empire: CaspianReport

[AUz]

Ok let me give u some my thoughts on what that 'global reach' and land area really means.Even in 1808 when napoleon invaded spain ,if u compare maps you'll see spain has bulk of two americas,huge land area ,massive global reach..and yet it was a pathetic power overall comapred to napoleonic france which had france and rhine states and part of poland.Napoleon's empire wasn't really transcontinental comapred to the spanish,but did that matter?On paper no comparison,what is important is the standing army and industrial capacity to produce weapons and supply armies.Your obsession with overall figures blinds you to reality.The same thing with germany after 1871,germany had only german homeland,britain had 1/4 earth..but still germany was more powerful.You just don't get it.Size in a map and global reach means little in matter of effectiveness.
Truth is after 1683 yes they sometimes scraped through in some defensive battles,but they were almost always on the defensive.Austria humiliated them regularly,and russia even more regularly.
Btw as for control of important trad routes that ended in 1498 when vasco da game dicovered the sea route around cape of good hope making the silk road route obsolete.

Span didn't have any 'global' reach. They only lands they controlled were un-integrated, isolated lands with no sophisticated culture. Only red indian tribes..Those lands were good for resources..thats it. Ottomans were controlling some of the most critical lands of the time. They had control over integrated cultures..alot of trade and commerce happened between Arabs, Europeans, Ottomans, Indians, Chinese etc...There was no trade b/w new world and Europe (only raw material transportation)..Also, Ottomans controlled critical seas..and controlled trade and commerce..Spain never did that..

Also, I already showed you that in year 1700, Ottomans' Army was larger than France's..since they mounted an attacked with 300,000 soldiers thousands of miles away from their mainland..Did french have the capability in 1700 to mount an attack on Anatolia with 300,000 soldiers? Not a f*cking chance! This shows how dominating Ottoman Empire still was by 18th century...Over-all economy of Ottman Empire was also larger than France's economy at this time..

Truth is after 1683 yes they sometimes scraped through in some defensive battles,but they were almost always on the defensive.

Exactly. You see, by the end of 17th century, Ottoman Empire was still "expanding" physically. It only came to halt in 1683..and then it was later when its power started to decline..so by 18th century (year 1700), Ottoman Empire was still a super power though now in decline...Look above, even European posters have accepted this fact...

You seem to believe that Ottomans stopped expanding in 1683...and boom! by 1700s, they were over in just 17 years? huh? Superpowers take centuries to decline..Ottoman Empire was no different...It took decades for Europe to "decisively" took over Ottoman Empire in terms of over-all national power after 1683...and it took even more time for Ottoman Empire to completely succumb to the pressure....

But to say that the Ottoman Empire wasn't the super power in the start of 18th century is just completely ridiculous. At this time, Europeans were outperforming the Ottomans..but ottomans remained superpowers...kinda like now..Chinese are outperforming Americans on multiple fronts..but America remains the superpower...

Austria humiliated them regularly,and russia even more regularly.

Only one "humiliated" were these guys b/c Ottomans had conquered and ruled mainland European lands for centuries and centuries...while they couldn't even mount a significant attack on mainland Ottoman Empire based in Anatolia...

BTW, according you you, by 1660 the superpower of the world was Ottoman Empire..right? B/c after 1660, French rose and become super power? Or you have even more weird views on history?

I hope you don't believe still that Ottoman Empire ended being the global superpower just after one loss (in 16th century, Battle of Leopanto)...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

A superpower with all these things doesn't suffer embarrassment after embarassment.Right after the 1683 turkish war ,austria went in smashed ottoman armies and captured balkans.Ottomans ceded belgrade.What happened to your superpower army?
Remember this austria was just a part of the grand coalition against france including england,dutchg,german states,italian states and austria.It clearly shows who was the more mightier threat.Ottoman army was laughing stock after 1700.Only 10000 regular gunpowder troops the janissaries,that too armed with obsolete matchlocks.And not using modern firing systems such as 3 rank volley or salvo fire.Field artillery heavy and obsolete.Wooden galley navy obsolete.Bulk of the huge nominal forces on paper used swords and axes and pikes compared to fully bayonet armed gunpowder troops.Most ottoman tatar and akinci cavalry still used arrows lol.Again navy was junk,wooden galleys made for shallow water ramming with matchlocks and archer corsairs for boarding.Useless against frigates,carracks and 3 decker man of war with 3 rows of 42-108 cannons.
I never said they went boom.
I said the decline began from beginning of 1600s,through the early phases capable pashas and viziers held the tide,but after 1700 they were more or less completely finished.After 1683 they won only sporadic defensive victories mainly sieges or logistics.major Battlefield victories were almost none.From 1660-1730 odd habsburgs were main enemy seizing bulk of balkans and hungary.After that russians defeated them regularly,seizing crimea,ukraine,circassia,georgia,bulk of caucasus,romania,eventually moldavia and wallachia.
Reasons are simple.Degeneracy of sultans.Obsolete technology.Interfernce of jannissary corps in palace coups.Empire being run from harem.Obsolence of the silk road route,the land route became far less lucrative after the route around the cape of good hope[came to be known as the spice route to india and eventually east asia was discovered].Discovery of new world another major factor.wealth pumped into europe.

 

[AUz]

A superpower with all these things doesn't suffer embarrassment after embarassment.Right after the 1683 turkish war ,austria went in smashed ottoman armies and captured balkans.Ottomans ceded belgrade.What happened to your superpower army?
Remember this austria was just a part of the grand coalition against france including england,dutchg,german states,italian states and austria.It clearly shows who was the more mightier threat.Ottoman army was laughing stock after 1700.Only 10000 regular gunpowder troops the janissaries,that too armed with obsolete matchlocks.And not using modern firing systems such as 3 rank volley or salvo fire.Field artillery heavy and obsolete.Wooden galley navy obsolete.Bulk of the huge nominal forces on paper used swords and axes and pikes compared to fully bayonet armed gunpowder troops.Most ottoman tatar and akinci cavalry still used arrows lol.Again navy was junk,wooden galleys made for shallow water ramming with matchlocks and archer corsairs for boarding.Useless against frigates,carracks and 3 decker man of war with 3 rows of 42-108 cannons.
I never said they went boom.
I said the decline began from beginning of 1600s,through the early phases capable pashas and viziers held the tide,but after 1700 they were more or less completely finished.After 1683 they won only sporadic defensive victories mainly sieges or logistics.major Battlefield victories were almost none.From 1660-1730 odd habsburgs were main enemy seizing bulk of balkans and hungary.After that russians defeated them regularly,seizing crimea,ukraine,circassia,georgia,bulk of caucasus,romania,eventually moldavia and wallachia.
Reasons are simple.Degeneracy of sultans.Obsolete technology.Interfernce of jannissary corps in palace coups.Empire being run from harem.Obsolence of the silk road route,the land route became far less lucrative after the route around the cape of good hope[came to be known as the spice route to india and eventually east asia was discovered].Discovery of new world another major factor.wealth pumped into europe.

Yeah whatever...keep beating around the bush...no one cares. Your use of words like "humiliated" , "embarrassed" only shows how childish you are in your approach to academics. Ottoman Navy was nothing but floating wood..yup, nice way of argument. I can bet that you have NEVER taken any detailed course on Ottoman History. Heck, even the Europeans here themselves agree with me and not you..but still, you keep churning same bullsh!tt again and again..Europeans never even came close to mainland Ottoman Empire..the only so-called "defeats" they inflicted were on over-stretched Ottoman peripheries/territories. While Ottomans conquered and ruled mainland Europe for centuries and centuries...

By 18th century, Ottoman Empire was still the super power but a stale one. While European powers were rising... European powers had not taken over Ottoman Empire in terms of absolute national power in the start of 18th century. This happened towards the end of 18th century when Europeans started to actively interfere in Ottoman Empire's affairs, trade etc. But you can keep living in your cuckoo-land though...

btw, you didn't answer this? What is your answer to this?

BTW, according you you, by 1660 the superpower of the world was Ottoman Empire..right? B/c after 1660, French rose and become super power? Or you have even more weird views on history?

Also, what do you mean by this?

Right after the 1683 turkish war ,austria went in smashed ottoman armies and captured balkans

Source? As far as I know, Ottomans still controlled majority of balkans in year 1700 etc.. Are you THAT ignorant?

Here you go..educate yourself.

Map of Europe in the start of year 1700

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1700/index.html

As you can see yourself, almost all of Balkans in under Ottoman Control..

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yeah whatever...keep beating around the bush...no one cares. Your use of words like "humiliated" , "embarrassed" only shows how childish you are in your approach to academics. Ottoman Navy was nothing but floating wood..yup, nice way of argument. I can bet that you have NEVER taken any detailed course on Ottoman History. Heck, even the Europeans here themselves agree with me and not you..but still, you keep churning same bullsh!tt again and again..Europeans never even came close to mainland Ottoman Empire..the only so-called "defeats" they inflicted were on over-stretched Ottoman peripheries/territories. While Ottomans conquered and ruled mainland Europe for centuries and centuries...

By 18th century, Ottoman Empire was still the super power but a stale one. While European powers were rising... European powers had not taken over Ottoman Empire in terms of absolute national power in the start of 18th century. This happened towards the end of 18th century when Europeans started to actively interfere in Ottoman Empire's affairs, trade etc. But you can keep living in your cuckoo-land though...

btw, you didn't answer this? What is your answer to this?



Also, what do you mean by this?



Source? As far as I know, Ottomans still controlled majority of balkans in year 1700 etc.. Are you THAT ignorant?

Here you go..educate yourself.

Map of Europe in the start of year 1700

Euratlas Periodis Web - Map of Europe in Year 1700

As you can see yourself, almost all of Balkans in under Ottoman Control..

You are not answering a single question and continuing on ur oblivious rant,do u deny ottoman rowed galley fleet was infinitely inferior to frigates and 3 deckers?
Do you deny that ottomans had only 10000 regular gunpowder troops in jannisaries?Comapred to french huge standing army of trained gunpowder troops?
Do you deny ottomans continude to use obsolete matchlocks waay after european armies had switched to flintlocks?
Do you deny that lumbering ottoman field artillery was slower and ineffective compared to euroepan mobile field artillery?Ottomans only had good siege artillery.
Do you deny ottoman gunpowder tactics were obsolete against troops using 3 rank volley fire and salvo firing systems?

As for your other 'assertions'.
Balkans is still a basket case on the fringe of europe.When did it become european heartland after 1071 manzikert and decline of byzantines?Wole middle ages.france,germany and spain was heart of european continental power.

2.See after the 1683 great turkish war ,especially in the aftermath of battle of zenta.Ottomans lost hungary the beginning of the end of their balkan empire.Hungary was largest vassal state of ottomans in balkans.After that continous wars with russia and austria throughout the 1700s-1800 even more chunks were taken away.Crimea,caucasus and ukraine were captured by russia[and these were muslim populated areas]If u call that a superpower then i don't know what to tell you.

3.I meant 1648 marked the beginning of french rise.Louis made france a superpower in about 10 yrs with reforms.He took charge in 1660.From 1670 to 1815 waterloo,france was greatest power in europe and indeed the world.Except for corrupt monarchy in the middle and six yrs war.See how many many grand coalitions were formed to stop france,no one bothered to form coalitions to stop ottomans.Just russia or austria whenever they got the chance or excuse gobbled up another chunk.

Btw unless you have answers to my questions.don't bother to reply.

 

[Audio]

They didn't change the course of history much..

Who financed Columbus?

 

[AUz]

@AUSTERLITZ

Again, you didn't answer my question..

Who was the superpower in 1650 lets say?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

@AUSTERLITZ

Again, you didn't answer my question..

Who was the superpower in 1650 lets say?

Spain and ottomans.Go back in the thread.I have clearly mentioned france's rise began in 1660 earnest and foundations were laid in 1648 treaty of westphalia that marked end of spanish power.

The battle we are talking about is in 1683,and by that time france was the superpower of europe and most powerful country in the world with a huge modern standing army of 300000-400000 gunpowder troops and cavalry.

Now answer my questions.Plz.You have avoided them long enough.