Deception, Lies Behind Making of India’s Daughter

[isupportaap]

India's Daughter neither vulgar nor offensive


Raucous uninformed cries for a ban contrast starkly with a restrained yet powerful and harrowing film. India's Daughter directed by Leslee Udwin-widely available on YouTube despite that futile and short-sighted ban on its telecast-on a case that has become a turning point in the struggle for gender justice in India, the Nirbhaya case. The film spares no effort in tracking down and interviewing almost all participants in the tragedy, its relentless legwork resulting in a portrait never seen before, one that chills us to the bone and yet also shows just how wide-ranging Indian civil society's fight back has been.

There is nothing in this serious film that is either vulgar, offensive or glorifies rape and far from being an "insult" to Nirbhaya is in many ways a tribute to her formidable courage. When the dead-eyed remorseless rapist Mukesh Singh declares "usne haath payr chalaya islilye humne usko maara"- the viewer's heart skips a beat for a young woman who deserves a national salute from every citizen.

READ ALSO:Ban only made video go viral

BLOG:Nirbhaya revisited, but not this way, please

The film states at the start that it has been made with the co-operation of Nirbhaya's parents and even reveals her name. Feminists have also criticized the long interview of Mukesh Singh, one of the four sentenced to death in the case, as one which may prejudice a case that is still awaiting final appeal in the Supreme Court, and also questioned the manner in which permission was obtained for the interview.

Perhaps the fault lies in the promotion of the film as one centred entirely on the rapist and the publicity campaign highlighting titillating bits of the interview.

READ ALSO:Delhi rape convict's remarks 'unspeakable' — UN on Nirbhaya documentary

The publicity does a disservice to the documentary. The film brings us interviews not only of Mukesh, but of Nirbhaya's parents and of Leila Seth and Gopal Subramaniam-the two surviving members of the J S Verma committee set up to modify India's rape laws after Nirbhaya's death- as well as of the Good Samaritan who first saw Nirbhaya and her friend couple lying naked and bleeding on the footpath, the police officers who investigated the case, the doctor who examined Nirbhaya as well as interviews with the dirt poor families of the rapists, including the mother of the juvenile who confesses that she thought he was dead.

The start of that great protest movement when thousands of men and women converged on Rajpath are shown as the deeply moving emotionally charged moments they were. The mincing accent of Oxford academic Maria Misra struck a bit of a jarring note as there seemed to be a cultural distance between her and the Nirbhaya movement, but then the BBC probably could not rely entirely on "native informants" and needed a recognisably western explainer. Thankfully, Kavita Krishnan, stalwart of the Nirbhaya protests, is also at hand to shed light on how the case became a tipping point.

READ ALSO:BBC documentary on Nirbhaya uploaded on YouTube

Delhi high court upholds ban on telecast of Nirbhaya documentary

We see the random everyday-ness of evil. The rapists' destitute families rearing delinquent, dumbly-enraged sons, a violent opportunity-less society creating rejects living in urban slums, capable of unlimited unthinking cruelty, spurred on by the desire to get even. We see valiant families, parents like Nirbhaya's, determined to uphold modern ways of thinking even in traditional milieu. And we see the comradely male support of Nirbhaya's tutor, a young man who helped her push towards new frontiers.

In shocking interviews with defence lawyers M L Sharma and A P Singh we hear monstrous voices that exist in our midst, in the midst of so called ""democratic" India, lawyers clad in the black coat of the law, voicing bigoted prejudice and backward views that should force all of us to embark on public introspection.

But it is Nirbhaya-and not Mukesh-who dominates the film. The invisible towering presence of a woman who worked long hours in a call centre, learnt to speak "good English", who wanted to be a doctor, is the film's unseen heroine.


India's Daughter neither vulgar nor offensive - The Times of India

 

[acetophenol]

What do you have to say about girls filing false charges?
Media needs to provide truth about such cases, Do you remember that Rohtak Sisters case? Every media channel played the video and demonized those boys for whole day and praising the girls as champions, but when it turned out those sisters made the laws which were meant to protect women as money making enterprise no one raised their voice.

Why double standards when it comes to laws being abused by women for their own benefits?
'False rape' cases soar in Capital as number of acquittals hits 78 per cent | Daily Mail Online

That issue too needs to be addressed. But it does not negate the problem we have either.

Bro I 100% agree with you, just because one doesn't like the Messege doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to it. Yes in this case this movie should cause a hell of a lot of introspection in India and rightfully so.


HOWEVER one cannot delink the motive part of all of this. Yes today the foreign documentary makers have made a film that has touched upon a very serious and prevalent issue in India BUT what about tommrow? If their motives are not aligned with India's then this can't be allowed.

The IB has said foreign funded NGOs cost india 2-3% GDP growth a year, this foreign funded media campaign in India is simply an extension of that and poses a risk to india holistically, don't you agree?

True. It is said that a lot of our laws were twisted and turned to make this documentary. Which means we have failed in monitoring their activities. This should not happen again, in this case I'll let it pass. But I certainly don't want repetitions of the same, where NGOs are given a free pass to do absolutely anything in the country.

 

[Abingdonboy]

True. It is said that a lot of our laws were twisted and turned to make this documentary. Which means we have failed in monitoring their activities. This should not happen again, in this case I'll let it pass. But I certainly don't want repetitions of the same, where NGOs are given a free pass to do absolutely anything in the country.

Fair enough bro but I think that the makers of this film need to be held to account for what they have done wrong BUT the GoI needs to be VERY clear as to why it is going after them otherwise it will easily be misreported in the internaitonal media that the GoI is prosecuting them because of the contents of this documentary and not because of the shady acts they have engaged in. "let it pass" this time is all well and good but it should be black and white, right and wrong- if you have broken the law you will be prosecuted, especially in cases like this where foriegn money and interests are invovled.

If left unchecked this is a VERY slippary slope to be going down, who knows what this could snowball into...

 

[About.to.be.banned]

These guys who made this documentary may not be having legitimate interests, I agree. But the documentary shows out the sorry state of a part of our society which looks women as something inferior. The comments made by the rapist and the two lawyers are examples.

Also alarming is that, the pathetic speed at which the cases are being handled in India. All these are true, valid problems faced by India, and the documentary is right in bringing out it to public. Whether or not they made this documentary with a non genuine reason or not, the points they raise in the documentary are valid and must be addressed.

@acetophenol

Dude, I have posted this before in another thread and I am posting it again in this thread. This was posted by an Indian in reply to westerners on a History forum.This is not composed by me.

Westerners would remain Westerner particularly 'British of European ancestry'. Debates are useless in my view as people would just exchange some biased opinions but I have seen some funny things. Time to say something

1. Rather than preaching that 'critcism is accepted in a mature society' , West should practise it. Yes, whenever some critcism is made against British rule or even their media, whole crowd like clueless men start their cacophony.
These revisionists blame weather for things like Bengal famines when no such famine took place in India after 47 and even when farming methods were primitive in that part.

2. This is historum , a history forum. If I ask a single non indian (except World Focker and heavenlykaghan) just names of four Gupta emperors, I can bet my life that without 'googling' not a single man can do this when Gupta empire was far better than anything outside Europe, Mid East and China.

Same guys would know a lot about Mali and Mayans who were petty cultures in reality. This is just to show that relatively speaking, even educated people do not know anything about India except what they hear from their media which is just a bunch of ignorants and who have no idea of India except what a deracinated class of English speaking Indians tell them.

3. See this from Financial Express

An Indian student’s internship request was rejected by a professor in Germany citing “rape problem” in India, prompting a sharp reaction from the German envoy here who condemned it saying India was not a “country of rapists”.
Professor Annette Beck-Sickinger of Leipzig University in Free State of Saxony had rejected the internship application, saying she does not accept any Indian male student for internship.
“Unfortunately I don’t accept any Indian male students for internships. We hear a lot about the rape problem in India which I cannot support. I have many female students in my group, so I think this attitude is something I cannot support,” Sickinger said in a reported email.

This is level of knowledge and logic of someone in a University. If German Professors can say such stupid things, it is natural that average Westerner would even be more biased and ignorant.


BTW, what German Ambassador said does not matter, they also apologize for Islam, does not matter. Just political compulsion, real mindset came to surface accidentally.

4. What this forum has told me is that people do not have any sense of proportion at all. We have Indologists who tell us that 'Turks patronised sanskrit' and such inanities.

Things are relative, if a country with 10 million people sees 2 murders daily, it is not big deal compared to South Africa but it is a serious concern in India. Indian state of Uttar Pradesh saw a murder rate of less than 3 per hundred thousand population in 2012 which is less than 'civilized' Western nations like US, Mexico, Russia etc. yet every political party and Indian media made a noise on how UP is 'jungle raj' and such. Clueless journalists pick up such headlines and spread false information.

Compared to South America, USA, Mexico and Central America, all parts of Africa except Arab Islamic parts. Eastern Europe, Central Asia and SE Asia, intentional homicide rate in India is quite low.

Now unless one can prove that Indians are very peaceful and hold life as precious but at same time are rapists as compared to West, this alone closes the case.

East Asia and West Europe have low homicide rate because they are ultra rich and level of police efficiency is higher. You can not get any place apart from UP and Bihar with a per capita GDP less than 1000 dollars and yet having murder rate so low.





4. Finally, on rape itself.

No matter how much I am hated by people here but fact of the matter is that
rapes are not a major problem in India at all. Ofcourse, unlike murders, westerners and their Indian lackeys can give excuse 'rapes are not recorded that much' but then that is stupid argument. Non one can ever find out real data at all, even if india in reality sees lowest rape, by this logic, one can always say that rapes are high and they are not recorded.

If you open any newspaper headlines, you would find items like rapes or thefts on front pages, do you know why? Because they are rare,like killings in US in terror acts like Marathon are rare and so they occur but some 20-30 people killed in Syria everyday do not occur at all.

The so called Nirbhaya case was unneccessarily highlighted, any society can have a certain number of people who may do any atrocity, to say that society is having any problem is just stupid. Rapes existed in Satyuga and they would exist in future, point is their frequency and India is better there than many large nations except China.

I have already shown that crimes in general are interrelated, a society having higher murder rate is less likely to have low rape rate and vice versa. Exception might be made for 'pious ghazis' as they kill but do not rape that much atleast fellow religionists.
Seen by this, rapes in India as recorded are closer to reality than some imaginative figures.

Finally, rapes are generally correlated with increasing promiscuity. Any idiot can see this except leftists. I am not saying that only promiscous ones are raped, simply that a society where promiscuity is norm, rapes would be higher than in places which are not promiscous. You can steal easily but can not kill that easily because you have grown up in society where life is considered valuable and violence is frowned upon. similarly, if you point a gun at some brother and force him to slap his sister, he may easily do this but if you force him to rape his sibling, he may prefer death. Point is that people in general do not violate things they consider sacred. Since in patriarchal societies, honour depends on things like chastity of women, people in general would be less inclined to violate that than in other societies.

I have data in support of my case. It is usual to talk about 'repression in India causing rapes'. Well, we all can see that Africans that is Bantus of Zimbabwe, South Africa etc. certainly do not hold chastity in high regard as compared to Indians and rape rates are quite high there. Males there are not 'repressed' at all.

HIV rates and rapes are correlated most of times. And it has been proven that rape rates are generally correlated with crime. Since India has both low crime rates and HIV rates, we can conclude that rape is no serious problem in India, it gets highlighted because it is rare.


In last, remember my words, rapes in India would only increase with time as more years pass, more westernisation and increasing promiscuity will increase and so would rapes. Crimes in India since times of Sleeman and Elphinstone have only increased.

Now hate me for bashing Westernisation but that is fact.

I do not have much time but as I return to home, I would post evidences that crime rates in India were quite low even in pre 20th century or for that matter in 400s.

Historum - History Forums


@Abingdonboy @SpArK @levina @MilSpec @SrNair @levina @utraash @Indo-guy @IndoCarib @Rain Man @ito @jaatram

 

[About.to.be.banned]

A case of high profile nature as the Delhi rape case is struck in our courts for years. Thats the case of high profile, fast track case. We are making a joke out of the juvenile's case, just because he is below 18 years of age. Forget the public outcry or the media frenzy, think about the situation the parents are in. All their hopes and aspirations were crushed in mere few hours and its not fair in anyway to make them go through all these delays. This documentary undermines the Indian Judicial System, and its true. I am confident on our Judicial system to deliver justice, but they need to speed up. Delayed justice is denied justice.

I do not suffer from inferiority complex, and I am proud of my country. Ours is not a backward culture. We do have our own share of problems, whether others have their problems or not, we have to accept ours and try to change it.

Trial through lower court ,where pendency is a problem, was fast tracked. The case is struck in Supreme court, where delay is not due to shortage of judges (Supreme court of all countries have very few Judges and they are supposed to decide only select cases) , but due to attention whoring tendency of Judges in form of PIL activism where they allow innane cases to clog Supreme court.

 

[SamantK]

Consider this, Leslee that women called our society sick!
Fine, what was her basis for this? One convict and a lawyer? IS that how truth is told? Where is the interview of other convicts?

And people here say that the documentary showed us a mirror? Come on, those thousands of people who braved police with water cannons and lathi charge were just random people going about their business? Were they not showing the mirror?

This documentary in English, which aims to show the mirror to our society is shown on BBC which is not even a mainstream news channel of India and the pimps at NDTV want to rape India while propagating the 'Rape Culture in India' to the west! Either I am really really stupid or the plot is so shallow that it reeks of propaganda!

More skeletons tumbling out of the closet, I can only think that this was a propaganda film

Nirbhaya's friend, who was with her on the fateful night, calls 'India's Daughter' a fake film - IBNLive

New Delhi: While the British filmmaker Leslee Udwin claims that her documentary on the horrific Nirbhaya gangrape and murder case, 'India's Daughter', accurately depicts what happened on the night of December 16, 2012, the sole witness to the barbaric assault on the 23-year-old woman called the film "fake".

Backing the Central government's decision to ban 'India's Daughter' featuring the interview of one of the convicts, Mukesh Singh who blames girls for rape and not men, Nirbhaya's friend Avanindra Pandey speaking exclusively to IBNLive accused Leslee Udwin of insensitively handling the issue.

"The documentary is unbalanced as the victim's viewpoint is missing. The facts are hidden and the content is fake. Only Jyoti and I know what happened on that night and the documentary is far from truth," says Avanindra Pandey who fought with the rapists and murderers to save her friend but was overpowered and beaten up brutally.

Backing his claim, Pandey said he had never heard the name of tutor Satendra, who features in the documentary. "Moreover, how does he know which movie I wanted to watch on that night," asks Pandey.

The man who appears as the tutor of the victim in the documentary said, "Avanindra Pandey wanted to watch an action film while Jyoti wanted to watch 'Life Of Pi'."

The interview of the death row convict created a massive public uproar and controversy after it was made public in which he held girls more responsible than boys for rape. Pandey says, "A controversy was created unnecessarily and was sensationalised. The documentary made fun of emotions and questioned the law and order situation in our country."

Pandey adds that even though things slipped out of the government's hand, it took timely action. "The documentary has dented country's image and questioned law and order situation. The documentary showed that any individual can enter the Central Jail of our country and can interview a criminal," Pandey says.

When asked whether he was approached to be part of the documentary, he replied in positive. "I was approached by many people and it started one and a half years ago, in 2013. I did not want to be part of it as I was not convinced by its motive. Also, I was not mentally prepared and had health issues as well," Pandey says.

He also appeals that there should be a censor board for documentaries as well.

The film is about the 23-year-old physiotherapist who was brutally gangraped by six men in a moving bus on December 16, 2012 in the national capital. Brutally assaulted, the victim succumbed to her injuries on December 29, 2012.

 

[cloud_9]

The people going nuts over it are helping the documentary maker.99% of the Indian's don't have access to BBC4 and if people used their brains for a sec it wouldn't have been such a success in the world.

 

[acetophenol]

@acetophenol

Dude, I have posted this before in another thread and I am posting it again in this thread. This was posted by an Indian in reply to westerners on a History forum.This is not composed by me.

Westerners would remain Westerner particularly 'British of European ancestry'. Debates are useless in my view as people would just exchange some biased opinions but I have seen some funny things. Time to say something

1. Rather than preaching that 'critcism is accepted in a mature society' , West should practise it. Yes, whenever some critcism is made against British rule or even their media, whole crowd like clueless men start their cacophony.
These revisionists blame weather for things like Bengal famines when no such famine took place in India after 47 and even when farming methods were primitive in that part.

2. This is historum , a history forum. If I ask a single non indian (except World Focker and heavenlykaghan) just names of four Gupta emperors, I can bet my life that without 'googling' not a single man can do this when Gupta empire was far better than anything outside Europe, Mid East and China.

Same guys would know a lot about Mali and Mayans who were petty cultures in reality. This is just to show that relatively speaking, even educated people do not know anything about India except what they hear from their media which is just a bunch of ignorants and who have no idea of India except what a deracinated class of English speaking Indians tell them.

3. See this from Financial Express

An Indian student’s internship request was rejected by a professor in Germany citing “rape problem” in India, prompting a sharp reaction from the German envoy here who condemned it saying India was not a “country of rapists”.
Professor Annette Beck-Sickinger of Leipzig University in Free State of Saxony had rejected the internship application, saying she does not accept any Indian male student for internship.
“Unfortunately I don’t accept any Indian male students for internships. We hear a lot about the rape problem in India which I cannot support. I have many female students in my group, so I think this attitude is something I cannot support,” Sickinger said in a reported email.

This is level of knowledge and logic of someone in a University. If German Professors can say such stupid things, it is natural that average Westerner would even be more biased and ignorant.


BTW, what German Ambassador said does not matter, they also apologize for Islam, does not matter. Just political compulsion, real mindset came to surface accidentally.

4. What this forum has told me is that people do not have any sense of proportion at all. We have Indologists who tell us that 'Turks patronised sanskrit' and such inanities.

Things are relative, if a country with 10 million people sees 2 murders daily, it is not big deal compared to South Africa but it is a serious concern in India. Indian state of Uttar Pradesh saw a murder rate of less than 3 per hundred thousand population in 2012 which is less than 'civilized' Western nations like US, Mexico, Russia etc. yet every political party and Indian media made a noise on how UP is 'jungle raj' and such. Clueless journalists pick up such headlines and spread false information.

Compared to South America, USA, Mexico and Central America, all parts of Africa except Arab Islamic parts. Eastern Europe, Central Asia and SE Asia, intentional homicide rate in India is quite low.

Now unless one can prove that Indians are very peaceful and hold life as precious but at same time are rapists as compared to West, this alone closes the case.

East Asia and West Europe have low homicide rate because they are ultra rich and level of police efficiency is higher. You can not get any place apart from UP and Bihar with a per capita GDP less than 1000 dollars and yet having murder rate so low.





4. Finally, on rape itself.

No matter how much I am hated by people here but fact of the matter is that
rapes are not a major problem in India at all. Ofcourse, unlike murders, westerners and their Indian lackeys can give excuse 'rapes are not recorded that much' but then that is stupid argument. Non one can ever find out real data at all, even if india in reality sees lowest rape, by this logic, one can always say that rapes are high and they are not recorded.

If you open any newspaper headlines, you would find items like rapes or thefts on front pages, do you know why? Because they are rare,like killings in US in terror acts like Marathon are rare and so they occur but some 20-30 people killed in Syria everyday do not occur at all.

The so called Nirbhaya case was unneccessarily highlighted, any society can have a certain number of people who may do any atrocity, to say that society is having any problem is just stupid. Rapes existed in Satyuga and they would exist in future, point is their frequency and India is better there than many large nations except China.

I have already shown that crimes in general are interrelated, a society having higher murder rate is less likely to have low rape rate and vice versa. Exception might be made for 'pious ghazis' as they kill but do not rape that much atleast fellow religionists.
Seen by this, rapes in India as recorded are closer to reality than some imaginative figures.

Finally, rapes are generally correlated with increasing promiscuity. Any idiot can see this except leftists. I am not saying that only promiscous ones are raped, simply that a society where promiscuity is norm, rapes would be higher than in places which are not promiscous. You can steal easily but can not kill that easily because you have grown up in society where life is considered valuable and violence is frowned upon. similarly, if you point a gun at some brother and force him to slap his sister, he may easily do this but if you force him to rape his sibling, he may prefer death. Point is that people in general do not violate things they consider sacred. Since in patriarchal societies, honour depends on things like chastity of women, people in general would be less inclined to violate that than in other societies.

I have data in support of my case. It is usual to talk about 'repression in India causing rapes'. Well, we all can see that Africans that is Bantus of Zimbabwe, South Africa etc. certainly do not hold chastity in high regard as compared to Indians and rape rates are quite high there. Males there are not 'repressed' at all.

HIV rates and rapes are correlated most of times. And it has been proven that rape rates are generally correlated with crime. Since India has both low crime rates and HIV rates, we can conclude that rape is no serious problem in India, it gets highlighted because it is rare.


In last, remember my words, rapes in India would only increase with time as more years pass, more westernisation and increasing promiscuity will increase and so would rapes. Crimes in India since times of Sleeman and Elphinstone have only increased.

Now hate me for bashing Westernisation but that is fact.

I do not have much time but as I return to home, I would post evidences that crime rates in India were quite low even in pre 20th century or for that matter in 400s.

Historum - History Forums


@Abingdonboy @SpArK @levina @MilSpec @SrNair @levina @utraash @Indo-guy @IndoCarib @Rain Man @ito @jaatram

Bro,
I too agree with most of the points raised by the guy. Rapes happen all over the world, in several nations, the situation is pathetic or worse than India. Statistically speaking, several other nations will be shamed by India in terms of crime and rape. India is being branded as the "Rape capital" just because our young men and women took the courage to hit the streets for Jyoti Singh. We decided enough was enough , and spoke out. We could've conveniently hushed the issue behind a blanket and Jyoti would've been just another victim.

My point is , we have always accepted our mistakes and taken steps to change them. The condition in our country is still not good, others may be having their own problems which may be worse than ours, but that doesn't clear our bad name. Male chauvinism is high in our society, and there is no denying that. We were conveniently starting to forget the Delhi rape case and it was this documentary that brought back these issue back to lime light. Who is gonna answer to the tears of the poor parents as their justice is struck in our courts? If such a hi-fi case is struck up for so long, what about others?

The pot may be calling the kettle black, but as long as the kettle is black,can we protest? Banning the documentary was the biggest mistake. We were unable to stop our laws being twisted and turned during the filming, and we merely banned it on its release. The documentary is absolutely relevant and a mirror to our society.

Fair enough bro but I think that the makers of this film need to be held to account for what they have done wrong BUT the GoI needs to be VERY clear as to why it is going after them otherwise it will easily be misreported in the internaitonal media that the GoI is prosecuting them because of the contents of this documentary and not because of the shady acts they have engaged in. "let it pass" this time is all well and good but it should be black and white, right and wrong- if you have broken the law you will be prosecuted, especially in cases like this where foriegn money and interests are invovled.

If left unchecked this is a VERY slippary slope to be going down, who knows what this could snowball into...

Yes bro, if we are not careful, these foreign agencies can kill our country in no time. Its upto the our intelligence agencies and ministries to monitor them.

Trial through lower court ,where pendency is a problem, was fast tracked. The case is struck in Supreme court, where delay is not due to shortage of judges (Supreme court of all countries have very few Judges and they are supposed to decide only select cases) , but due to attention whoring tendency of Judges in form of PIL activism where they allow innane cases to clog Supreme court.

Whatever the reason be bro, the point raised by Jyoti's parents in the documentary about the delayed justice cannot be negated.

 

[drunken-monke]

"Those who has glass houses shouldn't throw stones at others".