Debate between Pak-Army Soldier & Taliban & Pakistan's WoT

[Ahmad]

By the way the comment i wrote was specifically for TTP and Al Qaeda. I never related my last post to Taliban in Afghanistan. . You mistakenly took it to Afghan Taliban . . .

What a doulbe standard. The taliban are good for Afghanistan but bad for pakistan.

 

[StandForInsaf]

What a doulbe standard. The taliban are good for Afghanistan but bad for pakistan.

Taliban of Afghanistan are not problem of Pakistan we have to secure our area only , they may be ulta evil and dead zombies but they are responsibility of USA / NATO / KARZAI. Afghan ppl may throw away these clowns and start their journey to progress and prosperity .

 

[salmakh84]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan for details of dates on OPS in FATA... They began in MUSHYs time!! first one was in 2004..

Is that your best source ? Are you actually quoting Al-Qaeda in an argument ?
I have a stash of Talib videos and the time, date, location, people are all fabricated. They show a road full of destroyed vehicles and blame it on a Pakistani raid, turned out to be a market in Kunnar after an American airstrike on a Talib caravan. So that much for your source's credibility.

As if all other sources like ISPR, BBC, Dawn, Fox are 100% correct.. I dont know which video you are talking about but NO sources I have seen are 100% reliable..

1) Source, because I find 15% hit rate hard to justify.
2) That's why people were evacuated from Operational areas, to avoid collateral damage. Remember the IDPs ?
about missing persons i just want to say why we blame indian army for missing persons scores of them in kashmir?????
isn't it possible that they would be kidnapped or loose their mind and become lunatics to run away?????why blame india???
what is the real no of missing person in kashmir??? is it exaggerated???sailing according to your logic i m giving benifit of doubt to indian army.......indian army is allegation free now

Source: Advanced avionics helping Pakistan to break militants | Aviation International News

Quoted: "The need for good airborne reconnaissance was paramount, said Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleiman. When Pakistan Army launched large-scale operations in the remote Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in August 2008, the PAF had to rely on Google Earth imagery when planning air support missions."
More than 10,600 bombs have been dropped, and 4,600 targets destroyed, he said.

1) The Army doesn't pick people up, ISI does.
2) The police needs warrants, Intel agencies are not above the law but they are exempt from needing a warrant for arrest. Won't be very covert if you go to that constituency's police station and submit a request for a warrant before arresting him, will it ?

Again, MI = Army/Military. ISI = Majority = Military/Army.
Its ironic that you can justify an illegal act of agencies/army...

1) I am not much for conspiracies, I believe in facts.
2) I acknowledged above that torture is a part of the intelligence gathering process and only is only employed when guilt is pretty much confirmed. Secondly, these were British citizens and subject to British law, can we keep it relevant to Pakistan ?

British citizen was TORTURED in PAKISTAN as well, No just UK, hence relevant to Pakistan

He will be produced eventually but first, information must be extracted from him, accomplices traced, financiers busted, all that jazz.

how long does it take to produce that JAZZZZ??? Its been two years!!
Source: (http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ure-parade-lane-masjid-massacre-arrested.html) . That KEY Figure is STILL MISSING without ANY CASE!! No production in court, jails etc YET!! This is JUST ONE example.. Ask Amna Masood Janjua.. SHe has records of 1000s of missing!

And see talibs videos.. (which u dont beleive).. They have captured PEOPLE EMployed by ISI who planted chips! They were executed but they didnt say cia...

And Why not TALK about drones?? Americans have ACCEPTED that Pakistan has consented on DRONE strikes, PAKISTAN also provides INTEL on DRONES.. so why are you shying away and closing your eyes??

According to the LATEST report (today) by AP,

Pakistani officials have criticized the strikes as violations of the country's sovereignty, but the government is widely believed to have supported the strikes in the past and even let the drones take off from bases inside Pakistan.

and you'll find NUMEROUS reports where Americans ACKNLOWEGDE the double standards of our army, including Publicly crying over DRONES whereas actually supporting it!

 

[StandForInsaf]

One thing i must say as the people of Pakistan rejected Taliban and their ideology , if afghans reject them they will have no place in earth they can only go to hell then.

 

[Icarus]

See War in North-West Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for details of dates on OPS in FATA... They began in MUSHYs time!! first one was in 2004..

That was mere patrol that the Taliban attacked ! It was nowhere on the scale of ops in FATA and Swat of 2008-10.
BTW, no political agent's son died in those years and the hostilities ceased in 2005. I'm looking but I still can't find a similar story.
The hostilities subsided as quickly as they had started and we entered into a pact with a number of militant factions such as the Mullah Nazeer Group, the Liaquat Group, Guldad Khan group, etc. These pacts still stand, though I must stress that I oppose these pacts. I insist on total disarmament.

As if all other sources like ISPR, BBC, Dawn, Fox are 100% correct.. I dont know which video you are talking about but NO sources I have seen are 100% reliable..

At least they are bona fide sources ! You actually support quoting Al-Qaeda ?
Why don't I quote Israel next time and say that nothing is wrong in Palestine, doesn't mean everything is ok, is it ?
How come NO other source can confirm that this incident EVER took place.

Source: Advanced avionics helping Pakistan to break militants | Aviation International News

Quoted: "The need for good airborne reconnaissance was paramount, said Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleiman. When Pakistan Army launched large-scale operations in the remote Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in August 2008, the PAF had to rely on Google Earth imagery when planning air support missions."
More than 10,600 bombs have been dropped, and 4,600 targets destroyed, he said.

It doesn't say that out of 6000 bombs dropped, 5000 missed their targets which niazifighter claimed.

Again, MI = Army/Military. ISI = Majority = Military/Army.
Its ironic that you can justify an illegal act of agencies/army...

Define illegal. I just wrote that the agencies are allowed to arrest a suspect without a warrant and detain him for any period of time they deem fit. We vest a certain degree of authority in these people to protect us, and when they do their job, you criticize them, that too without proof, basing your argument totally on speculation.

British citizen was TORTURED in PAKISTAN as well, No just UK, hence relevant to Pakistan

By British Intelligence Officials or with their consent. Thus still liable for British Intel.

how long does it take to produce that JAZZZZ??? Its been two years!!
Source: (http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ure-parade-lane-masjid-massacre-arrested.html) . That KEY Figure is STILL MISSING without ANY CASE!! No production in court, jails etc YET!! This is JUST ONE example.. Ask Amna Masood Janjua.. SHe has records of 1000s of missing!

And see talibs videos.. (which u dont beleive).. They have captured PEOPLE EMployed by ISI who planted chips! They were executed but they didnt say cia...

1) He's pretty deep in this stuff, it's a military case. How can you say that he hasn't been presented before a court ? He could be undergoing trial by a military tribunal. Secondly, why should I mourn this guy's disappearance? We are sick of terrorists, the lesser there are in our cities, the safer we will feel.
2) You ask me why I don't believe the Talibs ? Because they also claim that polio drops are bush's urine, iodine salt is made by Americans to make muslim men sterile and that the white race is a result of bestiality. If you can believe all that then I your either more deluded than I thought or Bush has a serious case of diabetes. With reference to your example, Ok, for arguments sake, let's say that the ISI was installing chips into people(impossible), what now ? Can they control their brain ? Can they see what they see ? Can they cause it to detonate on cue ? What could be the possible benefit of such an action ? This isn't a spy movie, it's real life.

And Why not TALK about drones?? Americans have ACCEPTED that Pakistan has consented on DRONE strikes, PAKISTAN also provides INTEL on DRONES.. so why are you shying away and closing your eyes??

Like I said, drone strikes occur based on a homing beacon which are dropped on site. If you say that ISI has those beacons, then the CIA and ISI must be real tight for them to trust us with such important pieces of technology. But last time I checked, America and CIA consider ISI a rouge agency, what now ?
It's American agents dropping those beacons. Pakistan has recognized and I do too that we allowed drones to MONITOR the area so that we could get a map of the entire area in real time.

According to the LATEST report (today) by AP,

BELIEVED , not proven or known.

and you'll find NUMEROUS reports where Americans ACKNLOWEGDE the double standards of our army, including Publicly crying over DRONES whereas actually supporting it!

It's no secret that we don't get a long, so sparks are due to fly BUT have they ever been able to PROVE any of their allegations ?
A contract or MoU allowing drone attacks ?
A picture of Mullah Omar meeting Kayani ?
A telephone conversation between Sirajuddin Haqqani and Gen. Pasha ?

Until they come up with such evidence, I'm not buying.......

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

first of all, i doubt this guy is a soldier / perhaps not even a para-mil.....a good chunk of what he says is true, but some things he said are absolute rubbish not even worth commenting on.....

the person we are told is from TTP most certainly has the intellectual capacity and mentality as the ones who attack Pakistani state. . .another jahhil, another ''paid actor'' who perhaps can be rehabilitated, perhaps not.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

What a doulbe standard. The taliban are good for Afghanistan but bad for pakistan.

the afghan taleban is not the TTP; they are different organizations though they do have some similar tactics, and similar interests......no sane person will ''exonerate'' Afghan taleban from their known sins and abuses against humanity...but TTP has an entirely different raison d'etre and a much different modus operandi.

afghan taleban objectives are obviously to resist foreign occupation, and also to expand their influence (no brainer)....TTP's objective is to overthrow the establishment in Pakistan (which despite whatever flaws there are in the system, is an Islamic Republic under no foreign military occupation; one which actually is being blamed for non-cooperation with the West/NATO).....the Afghan taleban have been guilty of crimes against civilians, but the TTP openly justifies the bombing of mosques and attacking of soft targets --which is not a tactic used by the Afghan taleban (in fact Mullah Omar recently issued an order demanding that no civilians must be harmed)


nobody is an angel here; but from a purely Pakistani perspective --we have to ACCEPT that once ISAF/NATO withdraws, we are on our own to find out a way to see that there is reconciliation (which inevitably means accepting the 'existence' Afghan taleban (hopefully a much tamer one)

so basically, i see no double standard here......if you blame us for double standard, then you are looking at the issue very narrowly

 

[Irfan Baloch]

What a doulbe standard. The taliban are good for Afghanistan but bad for pakistan.

no dear sir
thats not how the Pakistani state sees it and neither the peace loving Pakistanis. yes Taliban have support here in Pakistan but so do the ones in Afghanistan
maybe the disgruntled Afghans will be well wishers of TTP too?

that aside we dont support or appreciate any group be it the ex-communist warlord generals in northern alliance or the taliban who have made the lives of Afghans a living hell and have ravaged the country for decades over their egos and political power.

People who support Taliban on the web or in real life are either ones who have never suffered them directly or are actually very part and followers of their savagery but don’t ignore the majority that unreservedly opposes and condemns the Taliban for their ill treatment and violence they have shown to their opponents and unfortunate civilians.

Problem is, as I have mentioned many times before, that only an outrageous and controversial story sells so you will only hear stories about Pakistanis that show us badly and some double dealing and scheming rascals, try finding a single story where it shows how much and how often the people individually and the private charities and organisations plus the tribes contribute towards the relief efforts of the Afghans that are living in refugee camps or have returned back to Afghanistan and are facing the hardships? I have seen an endless line of trucks taking clothes and food to Afghanistan but what a pity that such thing is not seen as news worthy.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Again, MI = Army/Military. ISI = Majority = Military/Army.
Its ironic that you can justify an illegal act of agencies/army...


British citizen was TORTURED in PAKISTAN as well, No just UK, hence relevant to Pakistan



how long does it take to produce that JAZZZZ??? Its been two years!!
Source: (http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ure-parade-lane-masjid-massacre-arrested.html) . That KEY Figure is STILL MISSING without ANY CASE!! No production in court, jails etc YET!! This is JUST ONE example.. Ask Amna Masood Janjua.. SHe has records of 1000s of missing!

And see talibs videos.. (which u dont beleive).. They have captured PEOPLE EMployed by ISI who planted chips! They were executed but they didnt say cia...

And Why not TALK about drones?? Americans have ACCEPTED that Pakistan has consented on DRONE strikes, PAKISTAN also provides INTEL on DRONES.. so why are you shying away and closing your eyes??

According to the LATEST report (today) by AP,



and you'll find NUMEROUS reports where Americans ACKNLOWEGDE the double standards of our army, including Publicly crying over DRONES whereas actually supporting it!

are you telling me that you have problem with the working of the intelligence agencies that are mandated to neutralise all threats be it from foreigners or nationals? is your problem only Pakistan specific or you are totally against the idea of the undercover surveillance operations?

by the way re rest of your post, help me to understand the relevance with the thread. are you justifying TTP or just habitually forced to criticise the Pakistan army and its agencies?

 

[53fd]

Whoever kills innocent people inside a Masjid, & that too on Eid is a Kharji, not a real Muslim.

 

[53fd]

What a doulbe standard. The taliban are good for Afghanistan but bad for pakistan.

Ahmad, I have used this response in another thread, but I believe it is appropriate here as well:

Pakistanis do not hate hate speech against the Taliban, quite the contrary. The Pakistani people dislike the Taliban for what they are doing in Pakistan as well. But what they hate is your slave mentality, & thinking everyone outside can solve your problems for you, rather than taking responsibility yourself to fix your own issues. The Afghan people think others have a magical wand & will solve all their problems for them. You let other nations with little real stakes use your country as proxy land. It was the US that created this mess in the 80s, & left the region without giving two f's. And now they are back again when it suits their needs, while violence in Afghanistan is increasing, is has not been more unsafe than what it is today, much worse than what it was in 2001. You guys need to man up & take care of your own situation, & you certainly aren't doing that.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Problem is, as I have mentioned many times before, that only an outrageous and controversial story sells so you will only hear stories about Pakistanis that show us badly and some double dealing and scheming rascals, try finding a single story where it shows how much and how often the people individually and the private charities and organisations plus the tribes contribute towards the relief efforts of the Afghans that are living in refugee camps or have returned back to Afghanistan and are facing the hardships? I have seen an endless line of trucks taking clothes and food to Afghanistan but what a pity that such thing is not seen as news worthy.

i cannot emphasize this point enough

i actually have met doctors --(many of them female doctors) -- who sacrificed 1 year from their jobs to volunteer as medics and nurses in Afghanistan.......nobody ever highlighted their story.

none of these ''good stories'' ever make the news (even in our own mightier-than-thou news media) simply because in this side of the world, good news NEVER sells. Whether its for international or even many local audience. I find it quite unfortunate that even many of our own people only focus on the bad things.

 

[Fracker]

Here is the reality of Kharijis. It all fits good on your TTP / Al-Qaeda

Wow so many references... thanks man... I guess this ends the dialogue...

TTP are kharjis... And they have nothing to do with Islam. (We have enough fatwas of different scholars to confirm this)

 

[Fracker]

The Pak army conceived the taliban through the ISI training of their compatriots across the border. Oppression and corruption leads to the type of fundamentalism we have seen recently. One minute Pak army is allied to the extremist next minute they switch sides to appease their foreign masters. You reap what you sow.

This toke alot of time to reach that threshhold of switching. In 1996, when Taliban captured Kabul, pakistan was the one who accepted their rule. But what they did in 2000, start claiming NWFP (Now KPK) as Aghanistan's part. Even in 2001 when US was going to attack Afghanistan, Pakistan was the one who actually called for peace in between. pre-911 there was no other sides.
What i am saying, even i accept your agreements of switching sides. TTP is not Taliban, they are just using name Taliban, but their targets & Taliban's Targets are different, Mullah Umer don't know who they are, Abdullallah masoud was arrested in US after 911, and was release who just came back to Pakistan and started (so Called) Jihad against "PA Alone". They are still living in Afghanistan and attacking Pakistan alone. (nothing to do with Taliban's or Pashtoon's motive i.e. to kick US and their allies out of Aghanistan)

Pashtoon's and Tribals are the one who are suffering most because of TTP's Acts.

The army is no longer credible. Its obvious that a government which is controlled for years by the army results in no longer having a fighting army whose interest is actually protecting the country. Its one thing to act big and bomb, imprison, and destroy your own ppl, And its another thing when your sovereign soil is bombed by another nation to bow down and do absolutely nothing.

So TTP is credible? really? looks like you don't know the figure of Army men died in defending Pakistani soil. They are only fighting to defend the country.

Whatever democratically elected government our country has seen is embedded deep with corruption.
Its all chaos whether its their terrorist bombing, or the government state terrorist bombings. The world just watches and laughs.

That's also because of TTP terrorism, who don't let Pakistani people to concentrate on any other thing then saving their life. The scare which TTP put in Peoples mind, don't let Pakistanis to stop Corrupt and criminal elements. Which is making Criminals more strong. And Pakistani Nation weak.

Also to all you army guys, bombing and killing taliban in Pakistan does not give you guys a positive image here in the west about combating terrorism. I've been here in Canada my whole life. To people here Pakistan = Terrorist
And to our dismay as Pakistani's: Pak Army = Terrorist Supporters.

Pakistan image comes from Pakistanis living in different nation not PA's act against TTP. If you don't have balls to speak for Pakistan, don't expect they will do it.

Make peace and care only about your own interests as a nation. Your own development. Your own corruption.
You don't look brave fighting under-armed rural tribal people. You actually look pretty weak.
Regardless, no one can beat them in the end anyways. Look at history the Pathans especially the tribal ones are our strongest and most ferocious people. They live rough. They don't lose wars. They will continue to fight until they are completely defeated.

Peace comes with the willingness of both side. But this was not seen in 2008, when PA try to make peace with TTP in swat. They started to move outside the region abatabad, buner, mardan, just to force other people to do what they want.

AND TTP has nothing to do with Pashtoon's history.

Make peace with them and move on. Our nation is not brave. If we were no foreign nation would do drone attacks on our soil without any fear of a consequence.

Only a weak person will suggest to move on, when criminal elements are growing because of TTP's influence. It's time to disarm all the criminals, whether they are in Punjab, Sindh, KPK or Baluchistan...

 

[Icarus]

al qaeda video...............why should we believe in army documentries, ispr statements and media channel reports which are much akin to army give me reasons?? if bbc documentry is fabricated than this could also be true for army documentries if not why????? this is a war and war has two sides of coin one army and other talibans so we have to listen to both sides unless you are not biased and if you are than i have no offence

You need a bona fide source, Al-Qaeda doesn't fit the bill. How come NO other source reported this incident ?
No Pakistani, Afghan or international channel ? Logic suggests that they didn't report it because IT NEVER HAPPENED.

if you have fabricated al qaeda video than make it online why don't we watch it and if effective change our opinion???

1) I won't post it because by uploading it to the web, I'll basically be flagging myself as a terrorist.
2) Ok, here's stuff that we do know that the Taliban/Al-Qaeda claim that we know is bullshit.
a) Polio drops are actually Bush's urine.
b) White race was conceived through bestiality.
c) Salt with Iodine is meant to make muslims sterile.
That much for the credibility of your source.

about airchief here is the link
New technology added bite to Swat operation, says PAF chief | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

It doesn't say anywhere that 5000 out of 6000 bombs missed their targets, neither does it say that the Airforce has a 15% hit-rate. It says that 15% of the objectives have been achieved and the rest of the matter should to sorted through dialogue. Kindly read the actual piece in it's context before quoting it.

IDPS...............remember afghan soviet war how many refugees left aghanistan despite migration did afghani people dogded collateral damage? if drone attacks are not free of collateral damage than why airstrikes are being evaded???

1) Afghan situation was completely different. The Soviets purposefully bombed villages suspected of sheltering the rebels.
2) Drone attacks are not free of collateral damage because they are usually employed to target terrorist leaders hiding in densely populated areas in areas where the military has no presence, eg: NWA where as the air strikes were conducted against isolated Taliban posts on mountains that were attacking Military interests in the valleys.

missing persons..........................
army and ISI are two different entities?????
i didn't questioned warrants i questioned habeas corpus,do you know this term???
you didn't address even a single concern about marriot suspects why??find hard to defend? never mind it happens

Army and ISI are two DISTINCTLY separate entities.
I don't think Pakistan's Legal System recognizes the writ of Habeas Corpus unless it is invoked by The Hague for the detainee in question. Which I believe, hasn't been the case.
Where did you quote the Marriot suspect ? I must have missed that. Kindly repeat your argument.

torture...............
they were britsh citizens of pakistani origin.....and if they are britishers than torture is liable?????
if torture is necessary in ISI than please differniate between CIA and ISI and GESTAPO???
british law unrelevent in pakistan so torture is legal in pakistan??
where is pakistani guitnamo then???

1) British Citizens of Pakistani origin are still British and if their government calls for extraction of information, even through torture then how is this our headache ?
2) Torture is a part of the intel gathering process around the world. So please decide, are you against the ISI or the global method of intel gathering ? Secondly, Gestapo was infamous for "On the Spot Justice", if you can present a case where ISI killed someone on site without trial or arrest(and prove it), then I will consider this argument.
3) Torture isn't legal anywhere but as I said, it's a part of the Intel gathering system around the world.

18 year old guy.......................habeas corpus is the basic right of person to know the reason of his detension befaore a court of law provided first time in magna carta

He probably knows he aided terrorists in the killing of innocents and thus he is in custody.

that guy is unlucky to be in pakistan which is uncivilised that midevael europe to not even have magna carta
do extract information but unless you don't produce him in court and access remand detention is illegal

That bastard is lucky he was born in Pakistan otherwise he would have been arrested, extraordinary rendition envoked and sent to some third country to be tortured for information. Terrorists get the same treatment world over.