Debate between Pak-Army Soldier & Taliban & Pakistan's WoT

[Mujahid]

@ salmakh84

You want to know who are the real Kharijis ?

 

[salmakh84]

@ salmakh84

You want to know who are the real Kharijis ?

yes please. with explanation and proof pls.. not rants.

 

[Mujahid]

yes please. with explanation and proof pls.. not rants.

Here is the reality of Kharijis. It all fits good on your TTP / Al-Qaeda

 

[Irfan Baloch]

so this talib war is on the people of pakistan or army??????????

ghq,ISI bases american consulate , 5 star hotels carrying foreigners, pns mehran, numerable military targets

after all that this is a war on people???????????????

if there are 300 major suicide attacks reported in pakistan then 70% of them nodoubt targeted pak army and police which originally betrayed islamic emirate

while other 30% aimed lashkars and tribal elders why????????? evident that they raised arms against talibans on pretence of pak army where does ordinary pakistani come in this equation??????

the ordinary Pakistani comes in Data Darbar and other shrines and mosques.
They have not spared women they have not spared children they have not spared elderly and killed them with as much ease they have killed the men.

you got your %age wrong. actually 70% of the attacks are on civilian targets and the rest on public property and security forces.

my friend's relative was caught in one of the explosions when he was returning from Friday prayers and his body and his bike was ridden with shrapnel that came from the explosion.

decide here please


are you justifying the TTP attacks
or are you completely denying these bombings?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

talking about the faith of the Kharjis

the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH said that their foreheads will have marks due to long and constant prayers and their beards will be long and they will quote Quran for every single thing they do. yet..... these Quranic verses will never go past their own throats

meaning they will never ever understand the true meaning of Islam and they will be a sham.

example.

the Killer of Ali Ibn AbiTalib was one of them and when he was about to be executed for the murder he was reciting the Quran and asked to be killed slowly and cut from the back of the neck so that he feels the longest pain possible. such is the conviction and ferocity of these people who say they are Muslims yet they contradict the very meaning of it.

they are habitual liers too and TTP are no exception, they have taken responsibility for the major atrocities but when saw the local reaction they retracted it and blamed it on black water and what not.

 

[somebozo]

His Ulema are Lal Masjid biggots!

Imam e Kabah is Darbari Mullah?? ahhaahah

And he makes the biggest confession..Mullahs made Jihad for dollars against Soviet Union?

Is a55hole absolves himself of all responsibility..even if he committed a sin! What a hypocrite!

He considers Quaid e Azam to be Kafir yet becomes a moral contractor of Pakistan..which sort of exposes on whose agenda he is...hint..India supporting TTP!

Jinnah made Pakistan become haram but now he is living in his country and wants a system of his owm...what a hypocrite!

Jinnah kaam ke waja se kafir hai..hint..a movement against foundation of Pakistan!

These people may be illiterate but they are very trained psychological manipulator...Evidence of expert training and twisted Islam bestowed upon them with the help of CIA!

This man is doing kufar e azeem by making accusations against the character of Prophet (SAW) himself!

People like these are hopeless case and arguing with them is waste of time..rather some indiscriminate bombing should be more helpful!

 

[Icarus]

Google or Search youtube for Pakistan Army Bombs Makeen Bazaar.. they flattened it killing MANY innocents.. includes some eyewitness accounts. Its just one of many.. also see Hamid Mirs program where a Govt Employee tells of how a helicopter FIRED on innocent people fleeing the war... families.. 40+ killed... ethics..

1) I cannot find anything on the Makeen Bazaar incident, what I have found however was that Baitullah Mehsud was later killed in the same area, so it was obviously a militant stronghold. Talk about losing a penny and finding a pound.
2) Hamid Mir has next to no credibility, he produced a child who's leg had to be amputated due to injuries received during shelling by Cobras(if I am not mistaken, you are talking about the same episode). He bashed the army for an entire hour and later had to submit a written apology because it turned out that the "Child" had been in the crowd that was enjoying the beheading of a captured tank crew.

Yeah, ISI will be charged, just like saleem shehzads murder... I can give you a SPECIFIC case... Police reportedly CAPTURED 3 "terrorists", IT EVEN came in the news... their parents went to the station, were told that agencies picked them up from police so they dont have it... later DSP changed story saying they FLED!!!
after the parents filed a case, giving Police press conference of capture as proof, the "terrorists" were produced.. (after a month, police saying they were RE CAPTURED).. there were torture marks on them.. NO ISI/Agency has been charged, yet... lawyer was threatened too!

1) PROVE that Saleem Shehzad was killed by the agencies, these people could kill you and it would look like you died of a heart attack, why would they beat the hell out of him and then dump him in a canal ? For stone-cold murderers(as per your description), these guys still have a lot to learn.
2) I would like a source for this incident please.

Are you a comedian??? Almost every report said In collaboration with Pakistan... pak provides logistics and intel.. Pak Army and US Army DONT deny it, why are u denying it?

Logisitic support: Yes
Intel Sharing: Yes
You specifically mentioned "Human Intelligence for drone attacks" which I categorically denied.
The missile hones in on a beacon, which we don't have these beacons are dropped by agents in the ranks of the Taliban working for ANA or ISAF.

Shamsi airbase.. LOLS... again, is that a joke? common, rehman malik is a better joker

Shamsi Air Base under UAE control: Air Chief | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Not so funny anymore, is it ?

Haha. What warrants?

This kind......Context of 'April 2, 1993: Yousef Placed on Most Wanted List, Massive Manhunt Ensues'

To kill people without a trial by drones? Even some US lawmakers admit it is illegal. US joint operations are ok? Even if there is a warrant, cant your ethical pak army act alone?

They can, however it doesn't hurt to have observers on-board does it ?
When we captured Patek, we had Indonesian Police/Army observers at his debriefing/questioning and extradition, don't you think we could have done all that on our own ?

Latest count on missing people: Thousands!! (Pakistan: Thousands Of Persons Remain Missing | Scoop News) thats 2010

I quote:
However, different estimates by nationalist groups, fundamentalist religious organizations and different human rights organizations, claim that as many as 8000 cases of missing persons have been reported since the start of the war on terror from different parts of the country. In Balochistan province alone, over 4000 persons are reportedly missing and disappearances continue to be perpetrated, notably by paramilitary forces.

Whereabouts of 83 missing persons traced, SC told
I Quote:
The report further revealed that out of the total 228 cases pending before the commission, 20 had been deleted as they did not come under forced disappearance, while five cases had been removed as legal heirs or relatives failed to provide accurate information about their missing persons.

Similarly, the report also revealed out of the total cases, the commission had disposed of 108 cases, adding 138 cases were filed with the commission on December 31, 2010 with 198 new cases.

They don't add up to a thousand.........

I am not permanently abroad. I keep coming and going to Pakistan.. its only because of family, otherwise I am not a fan of uncle sam and "random" security checks at airports..

Whatever you say, you still don't have to bear with terrorism on a daily basis do you ?

yeah, tell that to people who have been picked up and randomly tortured my agencies (including MI = operated by ARMY).

1) MI's mandate is to deal with Indian troop movements, posts and other information. THEY DO NOT PICK PEOPLE UP IN PAKISTAN. THEY JUST PROCESS INTEL FROM INDIA.
2) Nobody is "Picked up randomly", you have to be in some pretty deep stuff to be picked up. How many of our forumers can boast having been picked up by the agencies ?
None.
I know one guy who was picked up based on raw intel, they detained him for a week in Lahore. Questioned him and then dropped himat his house(intact, without torture marks) when they ascertained that he was innocent.

For e.g. A "Mastermind of Parade Lane Mosque attack (which was wrong and condemnable)" was picked up and is still missing. He was 18 years OLD!!! how can a 18/19 year old student mastermind such an attack??

1) If a bunch of 18 year olds can carry it out, I see no reason why they can't plan it. It was hardly a masterpiece of strategy, they used a ladder to jump the rear wall of a mosque while people were praying facing the other way. Simple enough for an 18 year old to come up with, maybe even a 6 year old.
2) I'd like a source for this though.

 

[niazifighter]

1) I cannot find anything on the Makeen Bazaar incident, what I have found however was that Baitullah Mehsud was later killed in the same area, so it was obviously a militant stronghold. Talk about losing a penny and finding a pound.
2) Hamid Mir has next to no credibility, he produced a child who's leg had to be amputated due to injuries received during shelling by Cobras(if I am not mistaken, you are talking about the same episode). He bashed the army for an entire hour and later had to submit a written apology because it turned out that the "Child" had been in the crowd that was enjoying the beheading of a captured tank crew.



1) PROVE that Saleem Shehzad was killed by the agencies, these people could kill you and it would look like you died of a heart attack, why would they beat the hell out of him and then dump him in a canal ? For stone-cold murderers(as per your description), these guys still have a lot to learn.
2) I would like a source for this incident please.




Logisitic support: Yes
Intel Sharing: Yes
You specifically mentioned "Human Intelligence for drone attacks" which I categorically denied.
The missile hones in on a beacon, which we don't have these beacons are dropped by agents in the ranks of the Taliban working for ANA or ISAF.



Shamsi Air Base under UAE control: Air Chief | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Not so funny anymore, is it ?



This kind......Context of 'April 2, 1993: Yousef Placed on Most Wanted List, Massive Manhunt Ensues'




They can, however it doesn't hurt to have observers on-board does it ?
When we captured Patek, we had Indonesian Police/Army observers at his debriefing/questioning and extradition, don't you think we could have done all that on our own ?



Whereabouts of 83 missing persons traced, SC told
I Quote:
The report further revealed that out of the total 228 cases pending before the commission, 20 had been deleted as they did not come under forced disappearance, while five cases had been removed as legal heirs or relatives failed to provide accurate information about their missing persons.

Similarly, the report also revealed out of the total cases, the commission had disposed of 108 cases, adding 138 cases were filed with the commission on December 31, 2010 with 198 new cases.

They don't add up to a thousand.........




Whatever you say, you still don't have to bear with terrorism on a daily basis do you ?



1) MI's mandate is to deal with Indian troop movements, posts and other information. THEY DO NOT PICK PEOPLE UP IN PAKISTAN. THEY JUST PROCESS INTEL FROM INDIA.
2) Nobody is "Picked up randomly", you have to be in some pretty deep stuff to be picked up. How many of our forumers can boast having been picked up by the agencies ?
None.
I know one guy who was picked up based on raw intel, they detained him for a week in Lahore. Questioned him and then dropped himat his house(intact, without torture marks) when they ascertained that he was innocent.



1) If a bunch of 18 year olds can carry it out, I see no reason why they can't plan it. It was hardly a masterpiece of strategy, they used a ladder to jump the rear wall of a mosque while people were praying facing the other way. Simple enough for an 18 year old to come up with, maybe even a 6 year old.
2) I'd like a source for this though.

you don't find it because it appeared in al qaeda video which was deleted thanks that was freedom of expression..........

no journalist have ever been to that area and tried to know the plight of people..........................your aircheif in dubai air show said himself that there were 10000 combat missions with more than 6000 bombs and yet there was only 15% success and airforce used google earth to point out targets.................imagine out of 6000 bombs 5000 going wrong even laser guided aiming on google earth targets...........how much havoc they must have wroughted its just a simple view of whole scenario

about missing persons i just want to say why we blame indian army for missing persons scores of them in kashmir?????
isn't it possible that they would be kidnapped or loose their mind and become lunatics to run away?????why blame india???
what is the real no of missing person in kashmir??? is it exaggerated???sailing according to your logic i m giving benifit of doubt to indian army.......indian army is allegation free now

please notify the law under which the acquitted 9 persons in marriot case were picked up from adiala jail and detained......why the supreme court orders were annulled??? doesn't they have the right of habeas corpus???? why aren't they being produced before supreme court??is army above the law?????

you know a case...............what about my cases which i know does they stand as proofs to you?????????
just read this guardian report on torture sources british intelligence
UK role in torture of British citizens in Pakistan condemned | Law | guardian.co.uk
ohhhhhhhhhh............fake,vituperative propaganda a smear campaign by raw,mosad and cia to malign ISI isn't it???

18 years old guy....................ok i believe he planned it but why not bring him in the court of law and lump up strong evidence against him and if he stand guilty hang him, i have noooooooooooo objection

 

[somebozo]

Its about time we take Jamat e non-Islami to accountability as suspected state enemy!

Also, sadly we have a lot of famous street mullah to chant Kafir Kafir..but no body has come up with Kafir Kafir Taliban Kafir yet!

By the way Taliban never fought against Soviet Russia, they came around 1992 only to claim credit..the real fighters were Mujahideen who fought out of Pastun nationalism not religion. There are regular incidents when the Pastuns commanders were irked by the presence of Arab fighters and scholars among their rank constantly chanting jihad jihad as they feared it would corrupt their cause. Most of these Pastun fighters were rebels from Communist back Afghan National Army and had nothing to with with religion or Jihad!

 

[salmakh84]

you don't find it because it appeared in al qaeda video which was deleted thanks that was freedom of expression..........

no journalist have ever been to that area and tried to know the plight of people..........................your aircheif in dubai air show said himself that there were 10000 combat missions with more than 6000 bombs and yet there was only 15% success and airforce used google earth to point out targets.................imagine out of 6000 bombs 5000 going wrong even laser guided aiming on google earth targets...........how much havoc they must have wroughted its just a simple view of whole scenario

about missing persons i just want to say why we blame indian army for missing persons scores of them in kashmir?????
isn't it possible that they would be kidnapped or loose their mind and become lunatics to run away?????why blame india???
what is the real no of missing person in kashmir??? is it exaggerated???sailing according to your logic i m giving benifit of doubt to indian army.......indian army is allegation free now

please notify the law under which the acquitted 9 persons in marriot case were picked up from adiala jail and detained......why the supreme court orders were annulled??? doesn't they have the right of habeas corpus???? why aren't they being produced before supreme court??is army above the law?????

you know a case...............what about my cases which i know does they stand as proofs to you?????????
just read this guardian report on torture sources british intelligence
UK role in torture of British citizens in Pakistan condemned | Law | guardian.co.uk
ohhhhhhhhhh............fake,vituperative propaganda a smear campaign by raw,mosad and cia to malign ISI isn't it???

18 years old guy....................ok i believe he planned it but why not bring him in the court of law and lump up strong evidence against him and if he stand guilty hang him, i have noooooooooooo objection

18 year old guy story came in Herald, DAWN (forgot the month). Parade lane story

He is still "missing" by our moral/ethical army...

Also, read todays news... 10 MISSILES fired by US drones that (allegedly) killed members of (cia/raw sponsered.. lol) Tehreek e Taliban..).

And about the Shamsi Base.. I think you dont get it.. pakistan has given ITS base to UAE?? WHY??? WHEN?? And UAE then GAVE it to USA?? Which was/is used for ILLEGAL attacks INSIDE the country?? (btw, WE directly gave it to the USA. Ask someone in airforce if u have connections.. 150 flights take off daily.. nato planes :p) UAE drama was a coverup.. Now do you get the joke?

And MI only acts against India etc etc?? What was india doing in Jhelum area where recently 4 MI officers were killed in pursuit of "lashkar e jhangvi terrorists"?

And even if Army/Agencies only "pick" up NON innocent people and torture them, it makes it right? What about RULE of LAW?? if the saviours of the law do not respect it, why blame the chors and dakus?

about hamid mir: I am not talking about that clip, I am talking about the one in which a government Politicial Agent of some fata region came, showed pics of his dead son etc.. I can't seem to find the clip.. it was during musharrafs era.

 

[Icarus]

you don't find it because it appeared in al qaeda video which was deleted thanks that was freedom of expression..........

Is that your best source ? Are you actually quoting Al-Qaeda in an argument ?
I have a stash of Talib videos and the time, date, location, people are all fabricated. They show a road full of destroyed vehicles and blame it on a Pakistani raid, turned out to be a market in Kunnar after an American airstrike on a Talib caravan. So that much for your source's credibility.

no journalist have ever been to that area and tried to know the plight of people..........................your aircheif in dubai air show said himself that there were 10000 combat missions with more than 6000 bombs and yet there was only 15% success and airforce used google earth to point out targets.................imagine out of 6000 bombs 5000 going wrong even laser guided aiming on google earth targets...........how much havoc they must have wroughted its just a simple view of whole scenario

1) Source, because I find 15% hit rate hard to justify.
2) That's why people were evacuated from Operational areas, to avoid collateral damage. Remember the IDPs ?
about missing persons i just want to say why we blame indian army for missing persons scores of them in kashmir?????
isn't it possible that they would be kidnapped or loose their mind and become lunatics to run away?????why blame india???
what is the real no of missing person in kashmir??? is it exaggerated???sailing according to your logic i m giving benifit of doubt to indian army.......indian army is allegation free now

please notify the law under which the acquitted 9 persons in marriot case were picked up from adiala jail and detained......why the supreme court orders were annulled??? doesn't they have the right of habeas corpus???? why aren't they being produced before supreme court??is army above the law?????

1) The Army doesn't pick people up, ISI does.
2) The police needs warrants, Intel agencies are not above the law but they are exempt from needing a warrant for arrest. Won't be very covert if you go to that constituency's police station and submit a request for a warrant before arresting him, will it ?

you know a case...............what about my cases which i know does they stand as proofs to you?????????
just read this guardian report on torture sources british intelligence
UK role in torture of British citizens in Pakistan condemned | Law | guardian.co.uk
ohhhhhhhhhh............fake,vituperative propaganda a smear campaign by raw,mosad and cia to malign ISI isn't it???

1) I am not much for conspiracies, I believe in facts.
2) I acknowledged above that torture is a part of the intelligence gathering process and only is only employed when guilt is pretty much confirmed. Secondly, these were British citizens and subject to British law, can we keep it relevant to Pakistan ?

18 years old guy....................ok i believe he planned it but why not bring him in the court of law and lump up strong evidence against him and if he stand guilty hang him, i have noooooooooooo objection

He will be produced eventually but first, information must be extracted from him, accomplices traced, financiers busted, all that jazz.

 

[Icarus]

18 year old guy story came in Herald, DAWN (forgot the month). Parade lane story

I'll need a source please.

Also, read todays news... 10 MISSILES fired by US drones that (allegedly) killed members of (cia/raw sponsered.. lol) Tehreek e Taliban..).

Quit misquoting me, I never linked the TTP to CIA, RAW or Mossad. And how is the drone strike relevant to our discussion ?
Last time I checked we were discussing Pakistan Army's unethical practices and the drone strike is not one of them.

And about the Shamsi Base.. I think you dont get it.. pakistan has given ITS base to UAE?? WHY??? WHEN?? And UAE then GAVE it to USA?? Which was/is used for ILLEGAL attacks INSIDE the country?? (btw, WE directly gave it to the USA. Ask someone in airforce if u have connections.. 150 flights take off daily.. nato planes :p) UAE drama was a coverup.. Now do you get the joke?

It was leased to the UAE in 1992 as an overseas Airforce base. After the US launched the WoT and UAE declared support for it, they entertained American Predator drones for operations in Kandahar and Helmand.
1) I have plenty of relatives in the Airforce and I am on friendly terms with many others. None know anything about these "NATO Flights" you talk about. A few odd one's took place with permission and were logistic support flights.

And MI only acts against India etc etc?? What was india doing in Jhelum area where recently 4 MI officers were killed in pursuit of "lashkar e jhangvi terrorists"?

The terrorists were scouting for an attack on Jhelum, Mangla and Kharian Cantt. That is pretty undoubtedly the MI's domain.

And even if Army/Agencies only "pick" up NON innocent people and torture them, it makes it right? What about RULE of LAW?? if the saviours of the law do not respect it, why blame the chors and dakus?

I said that torture is only practised when guilt is confirmed. As for "Picking Up", the intelligence agencies are exempt from seeking warrants for suspects. They are operating under their defined parameters.

about hamid mir: I am not talking about that clip, I am talking about the one in which a government Politicial Agent of some fata region came, showed pics of his dead son etc.. I can't seem to find the clip.. it was during musharrafs era.

During Musharraf's time, there were no active military ops in FATA, so how can the PA's son have died as a result of a military op ?

 

[AHMED85]

Here is the reality of Kharijis. It all fits good on your TTP / Al-Qaeda

Excellent Mujahid

 

[rameez ahmed]

what about the black banners emanating from khorasan it is mentioned inthe hadith that hadith can be perfectly applied on alqaeda and taliban

moral is on the part of religion we are traitors as we betrayed the islamic emirate while on the part of international community we have put forth numerable sacrifices in war against terrorism you have to choose one religion or secularisim

Brother I also have firm belief in the Hadith of Black Flags from Khorasaan. I have spent almost Two years in studying Islamic Eschatology and have seen lectures of many Islamic Scholars of various views . . . . .

The Black Flags will emerge and the Mujahideen under it will liberate Jerusalem InshaAllah. No one can ignore this fact..

But it never means that any group with black Flag today, in that area emerges and claims to be the group mentioned in Hadith. . We have no proof that Taliban is that group.

The TRUE group that will emerge from khorasaan will be the representative of TRUE ISLAM that Holy Prophet Muhammaad (SA) preached.

Taliban no doubt established an Islamic Government, but their views have more extremism than Moderation, which is in contrast to the Islam brought by Hazrat Muhammad (SA)...

The Islam Holy Prophet (SA) brought had toleration, Moderation, Religious Freedom, Justice, Love, Women Rights, Women Education, Progress (within the Principles set by Shariah), etc ..

I don't think Taliban were representing all these things.....

SECONDLY, I think its a very big thing you are saying that WE betrayed the Islamic Emirate. . . You can't bring every Pakistani under the Umbrella of betraying. .


By the way the comment i wrote was specifically for TTP and Al Qaeda. I never related my last post to Taliban in Afghanistan. . You mistakenly took it to Afghan Taliban . . .

 

[pak-marine]

Jinnah made Pakistan become haram but now he is living in his country and wants a system of his owm...what a hypocrite!

Jinnah kaam ke waja se kafir hai..hint..a movement against foundation of Pakistan!

These kharishi kharji's are pissed up with jinnah for one reason only and thats he was a shia ...