Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gogbot]

Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets
MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ ,

Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor ,
If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI .
Can be hot-refueled in a minute .
Just sips fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .

What else can you ask for , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .

We have the Tejas to perform those tasks , We don't need the Griphen to fill that role within the IAF.
By the time we get delivery of the First Griphen we will already have a squadron of Tejas aircraft. So time is not factor here.

Second , even if the Griphen can perform better then the Tejas(which is only speculation) , what ever marginal befits you get as a result , is not worth undermining the decades of effort , for a measly mid term gain. Compared to long term investment.
IAF has all the high performance twin engine fighter aircraft it wants , all it needs to do is ensure the place for the Tejas as it's Single Engine standard Fighter.

Also not to mention Tejas can perform most of the roles of the Grihen and do so at half the cost. and be built in 2/3 the build time.

Simple put we lose more than we gain , if we get the Giphen.

Given that we have the Tejas , we should leverage our position use the MMRCA for Technological , economic and political gains . Sweden offered us neither of those.

Eurofighter and Dassult however , make very attractive offers , with the only downside being the high cost.

 

[sudhir007]

pilot save in Gripen Crash

 

[KEETARP]

Gog....
You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ?

not worth undermining the decades of effort , for a measly mid term gain.

Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?

 

[SpArK]

Gog....
You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ?


Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?

We want to hear your analysis on Grippen and Tejas existing together.

 

[sancho]

Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets
MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ ,

Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor ,
If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI .
Can be hot-refueled in a minute .
Just sips fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .

What else can you ask for , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .

Like gogbot pointed out, Gripen NG and LCA are meant for the same point defense, close air support roles and should be a cost effective addition too, but if the requirements of IAF and MoD are higher it doesn't fit anymore!

Deep penetration strike for example is not possible, because it can carry only 2 x fuel tanks and has only 2 x stations left for bombs, or stand off missiles, which limits the range. Also a combined deal for IAF and IN is not possible, because there is no carrier version available yet.

ToT, which should be a big requirement will be a problem too, because the high dependance on foreign countries. Be it radar, engine, or weapons, without their clearance nothing is possible and this makes it vulnerable for sanctions too.

Economical advantages are also a point, from the Swiss competition it is known that Saab has the lowest offset offers.

Political, or strategic advantages are not available at all.

We should also keep in mind what the upgrades of Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 means, because they are also meant for the same point defense and CAS roles like LCA, or Gripen NG too. So they and the at least 140 LCAs that will be ordered for sure, will mean more than 250 fighters on the lower end of IAF, for the same use (not to mention around 120 Bisons). So are there really more fighters needed for the same role?

Btw, the short take off range is not something special for Gripen NG only, EF can take off at 300m and Rafale at 400m distances too.

 

[sancho]

pilot save in Gripen Crash

Sudhir, is this the NG prototype, or earlier versions?

 

[KEETARP]

Benny , its discussed before many times . This MRCA thread running into Pages - Everyone has its own choice

Someone would say - Get MRCA for political benefit , and who will be better than USA for Political gains on World stage , and in next posts he simply rejects US jets saying they are junk or old design and no political benefits .

Someone would pop up saying Mig35 is old Russkie and not developed , next post without knowing status of AESA radar on Eurofighter will say buy Eurofighter .

Its same everytime going round the same circle .

I support Gripen big time , not bcoz I am SAAB salesman . What I read about requirements and analysis from ex-IAF pilots .
That sounds more logical and true bcoz they are only person on this planet who can comment , not someone like me or others reading some fancy stuff about Eurofighter and supporting it.
There was very good article posted by SANCHO few days back -
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF

These are words of retired air-force pilot , and i take it much more credible than any internet warrior like me .

 

[sancho]

These are words of retired air-force pilot , and i take it much more credible than any internet warrior like me .

Don't forget that not the air force will take the decision of who will win MMRCA, but the MoD!

 

[KEETARP]

And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates .
Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .

Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count

 

[sudhir007]

Sudhir, is this the NG prototype, or earlier versions?

It is older verson

 

[Dash]

And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates .
Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .

Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count

It will be quite interesting to see who wins, IAF or MOD..
Coz If I have to bring thsi topic, i will say even after IAF selected Airbus as the future air refueller, even after MOD approving, MOF rejected it....and man, they have a point, why such high price for a refueller???..

So dont know what IAF was thinking when they selected that peice.
I will also agree that here its a different ball game all togather.

Just to make it a little practical. Do you think the decision makers in the IAF will consider whats best for the pilots or whats best for both pilots and the country when it comes to selecting one...

and to add spice, when they will look for which one suits both the needs...we all know there is no one which suits both...

I respect your feelings Lt Prateek, but this is going to be one hell of a decision...

My only fear????..

Hope it doesnt get into Delays.....

 

[KEETARP]

Now with Multi-Vendor approach , until and unless MoD decides to go with FMS way there wont be a direct purchase . Even if MoD cancels and again goes for multi-vendor approach it will be Air-force to decide which one they want .

So dont know what IAF was thinking when they selected that peice

No one other than IAF can judge better what country needs and what is best . These men have flown Jets with faulty spare parts even risking their life , proudly to keep head of Indian's sky high when MoD was pocketing money and bureaucracy at its worst . Not a single day an IAF officer came complaining . When they ask for something , its duty of MoD to provide them bcoz they are the best ones to judge .

There are certain advantages that A330 gives over IL-78 its not that IAF saw and hand-picked new machine . When you chose a platform like these , you look at operational cost , availability of spares, Fuel , etc for full 30 years and then decide what is the cost-effective option . A short term cheap purchase due to higher operational cost may turn out twice expensive than the other platform .

Eurocopter won LUH last time and MoD scrapped IAF choice , in re-bidding + trials only Eurocopter and Ka have made it to last again , and no surprises Eurocopter will win again as it is leading .
Now Mod is thinking to scrap once again since Ka brought different engines - Bring it on next time also Eurocopter will win . Thats what IAF wants , MoD can cancel as many times as they want but IAF will only select what they need .

 

[Dash]

MoD can cancel as many times as they want but IAF will only select what they need .

That is what is the point here.


See its not our wish that matters, and we may debate endlessly. But the deciding authority will be MOD always.May be for whatever reasons....

Thats the price of democracy in some ways. However I dont doubt on what IAF selects and they select the best and in fact a very professional fighting force what we are proud of

But what I am talking about is basics.I think its time for IAF and the MOD to get realistic and act togather. We need to project a requirement which is viable from all angles, and MOD needs to get that requirement.

Tom IN might select F35, dont know what is the tender for, when they can have FGFA and all that....its the same equation here like IAF.

The concept of win win is gone past of time. What we can levearage from MRCA depends on how much we can negotiate for. After all we all know the reality.......Long term strategy and wise projection of requirement..

If this doesnt happen, then IAF will keep selecting and MOD will keep cancelling..
leave the frustration apart, time to get practical.

It sometimes worries me when the complications will end...

What my point is, Airbus has advantages over life time(even I agree). So IAF need to do a life time cost analysis and project it to MOD in such a way that it will clearly blink MOD's eyes to see that there in fact is a technical and financial advantage on that aircraft.....the point is why it wasnt done...? how does it server better in saving an airman's life that IL -76 and all that, why wasnt it done...somebody failed to project it the right way!!!!...

This is what I am talking about....

 

[gogbot]

Gog....
You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ?
Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?

Not exactly , but i was struggling to find the exact word , "undermine" may not have been the best choice.

But Ghiphen NG would have a damaging effect on the Tejas program.

One of the primary factors for successful development of any platforms is support of the user the armed forces themselves.

The Arjun is by far on of the most important developmental saga's in our nation. It's a case study on what happens when User and R&D have deferring PoV. The end product of which , no matter how capable it may be , get's squashed in between never realising its full potential.

Now getting the Saab Griphen will not harm the tejas in a direct way , but knowing the mentality of the officers , i can easily the Griphen being favoured over the Tejas . Missions the Tejas would have done might go to the Griphen , IAF may as a result never use to its full potential.

this could translate to less orders
IAF not using the fighter to its full potential

essentially i am worried the Tejas may be given the back seat , to the Grihen Many a case.

The end result of which diminishes the need of a Tejas aircraft in the IAF.
However if the Griphen is not there , the Tejas would be very unique to the air force and then the IAF has pressing need for more Tejas aircraft , it will eventually become the work horse of the IAF.

I want the deck scale tipped as much in the favour of the Tejas as possible , the Griphen it tips the scale in the wrong direction , i dont like that.

Not to mention that our export hopes for the Tejas will be damaged since the Griphen will be the Primary competition , how will it look if we tried to sell a plane , while we owned the planes that our competitors make.

 

[Dash]

hi Gogbot -

But Ghiphen NG would have a damaging effect on the Tejas program.

I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...

Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...

The Arjun is by far on of the most important developmental saga's in our nation. It's a case study on what happens when User and R&D have deferring PoV. The end product of which , no matter how capable it may be , get's squashed in between never realising its full potential

If T-90 couldnt kill Arjun programe then Gripen cant not kill Tejas program. Developement on self reliance and national security are two different roads and I think GOI is has started understanding this.

So Gripen killing LCA is no way related.

There is also a possibility that if Gripen is choosen you can have more numbers than just 126. There are some advantages.

But -
Polotically- Nothing
Technically- may be something but not substantial.

And there it goes down.....