Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[ajay]

Better not to compare the Brazil tender as France is helping them with nuclear sub design so of course they will promote the Rafale fighter

 

[angeldemon_007]

AESA radar is new and not an upgrade, IRST is new, engine is new, EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes.

AESA
I have told you earlier also, the aesa radar is not tested in any of the MMRCA contender except american fighters.

Apart from that, Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.

IRST
Earlier version of the gripen also had IRST, it had a range of 30km. As you are saying IRST is new, i think it must be an advanced version but its not a big deal, nowadays many flying machine has experience in IRST.

engine
NG will operate on GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 which is jointly developed by Volvo-GE for Gripen and is completely based on General Electric F-404-400 (80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class).

Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried. Also the fighter is even tested in LEH.

EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes.

Look man, share the source. Earlier you told me :

IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...

I read a blog entry dated 2004 and it showed Gripen had IRST then also.

Which basically are airframe, some radar and some avionics only and that's pretty much the same that we have (we have our own data links, have our own EWS and radar developments and even design a similiar class fighter).

some radar ??/
Dude you call an aesa some radar ?// What is wrong with you ?//Their aesa is also not of US origin. Saab and Selex Galileo developed it.

we have our own data links
Good for us but for your information Gripen has the best data link which is important for the mission completion. We could use it for our next gen fighters.

What we need instead is:

- a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition
- a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen
- a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)

Why are you talking about these. These are separate JVs. Its possible the company which is selected for MMRCA might be included in these projects, but still its a different thing.

but we can benefit way more from bigger and more experienced companies / vendors / partners like EADS, Boeing, LM, Sukhoi, or even Dassault.

You are right except the american companies.

 

[sancho]

Not sure what blogs you mean, but you should check for more reliable sources!

IRST
Earlier version of the gripen also had IRST, it had a range of 30km. As you are saying IRST is new, i think it must be an advanced version but its not a big deal, nowadays many flying machine has experience in IRST...
...I read a blog entry dated 2004 and it showed Gripen had IRST then also.

Gripen features on the official Saab website:
Gripen the Multi-role Fighter Aircraft - Features

Operational Swedish Air force Gripen C:

Operational South African Gripen C/Ds during the world cup last year:

And even Gripen NG Demonstrator:

Now where do you read anything about, or see an IRST?

Try to understand, that Gripen NG is only a demonstrator to test some tech prototypes and airframe modifications. The final Gripen E/F is planed to get the real Swashplate AESA and IRST from Selex:

The backend of the radar will get some parts of the current radar, but that's it. That's why I said, the AESA radar and IRST for the Gripen E/F will be new developments and not just an improved version of the operational techs.
That's the difference to EF and Rafale, which uses their operational IRST and radars as basis for further developments and that leads us to the next point where you are mistaken.

AESA
Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.

Sorry, but this is totally wrong!


Rafale:

Thales has been developing its own European advanced AESA radar technology since the 1990s. With its long experience in radar technology for combat aircraft and in Passive Antenna Electronic Scanning functions qualified for the Rafale’ RBE2 radar, Thales has been testing development models of the RBE2 AESA radar since 2003.

Rafale's Latest Radar Moves into Production


EF:

Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon

May 14, 2007

Basildon, U.K., 14 May 2007. The Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array (AESA) variant of the Captor radar system has completed a flight test program in the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The flights were conducted by EADS from the Manching facility in Germany.

Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon - Military & Aerospace Electronics


Gripen Demo:

The Gripen Demo technology demonstration program has been conducted in two phases and involves a flying demonstrator and an avionics rig. Phase 1 flight tests got under way with a first flight on May 27, 2008

Gripen NG matures and waits for India: AINonline

DATE:05/11/09
SOURCE:Flight International
PICTURE: Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar

Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal


As you can see, the EF and Rafale AESA's were developed and tested even before the first flight of the Gripen Demo itself. Initially it was even planed to co-develop a radar for the Demo with Thales on basis of the RBE 2 AESA, when that didn't happen (because of Dassault pressure), Saab first tried to get ELTA (didn't happen because of US pressure) and then with Selex.
Thales on the other hand finished their development last year and is producing the radar already in small numbers:

Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3

engine
NG will operate on GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12

Exactly, 2 different engines, not just a thrust upgrade!

Dude you call an aesa some radar ?

Read again, I said they can provide only some swedish ToT of the radar, because the main part is from Selex and needs approval from foreign countries.

 

[luckyyy]

AESA
I have told you earlier also, the aesa radar is not tested in any of the MMRCA contender except american fighters.

Apart from that, Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.
.

MIG-35's Phazotron Zhuk-AE aesa radar was displayed at last years aeroshow at bangalore......IAF could have tested it , coz there were news reports that this radar will be put on su-30mki upgrade..

 

[kingdurgaking]

@Sancho....
Though Griphen NG is not poweful like Rafale or EFT at present... But being a small single engine multi role , If it had AESA, IRST etc.. it will really had muscle to our Fleet.. Though my Favourite was EFT... but considering the numbers of twin engine + Quality in our current fleet i feel Griphen is the best option ..... further more Griphen NG will be customized according to indian requirement like Indian weapons.. ability to take off from Roads + hot refuleing etc which impressed IAF very much .... Only thing is it is late ... if the above requirements exist now.. Griphen NG would have been the best option.. Still it is the best option but not yet complete... Too say in simple terms... Quality for the unmatched cost...

 

[angeldemon_007]

Thanx Sancho for clearing up and you are right.

 

[luckyyy]

new MiG far ahead in capability than SU-30MKI

"We are ready to offer the top-of-the-shelf technology, including some new systems like stealth features for the Mig-35 "...

Navy's MiG-29K superior to IAF's SU-30MKI

 

[IND151]

if MIG 35 comes with AESA radar then only we should go for it. if not then rafale should be selected.

 

[GORKHALI]

India’s MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid
SOURCE DEFENCE WORLD.NETMILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: India’s MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid
Flight trials of the six contenders for India's Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender have had an unusual side effect on the race to sell India aerial refueling aircraft. Asked to prove aerial refueling capability, the contenders, F-16 , Gripen, Rafale, F/A 18 , MiG-35 and Eurofighter have had no option but use the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s existing tanker, the lL8 mid-air refueler to prove that their aircraft is capable of meeting IAF's requirements as regarding aerial refuelling The IL-78 is a contender in India's re-floated bid to buy fresh aerial refueling tankers. Fresh bids are due later this month and the besides the IL-78 , the other likely contenders are the Airbus A-330 MRTT and the Boeing KC- X. The success of the MMRCA aerial refueling tests means that the IL-76 tanker will have a stronger case due to the fact that its capability has been proven on all the MMRCA bidders, one of which will be eventually selected. In fact, the MMRCA contenders had to make major modifications to their aerial refueling systems to match the IL-76 's fuel pipe mating and locking systems to prove that the their aircraft can be refueled in mid-air. Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that the Russian bid had "emerged stronger" after the MMRCA aerial refueling tests. The ll78 had earlier been disqualified in favor of the Airbus A-330 MRTT but the Airbus bid was turned down following objections from the Indian finance ministry which found the aircraft "too expensive". It is not known was the quoted price was. Indian media quoting unnamed Airbus officials has reported that Airbus would be resubmitting its bid for the tanker contest. Boeing however has reportedly expressed that its bid would depend upon whether it wins the U.S. aerial tanker bid in which it is engaged in a bitter battle with the U.S. subsidiary of EADS which is fielding the A-330 MRTT. Airbus' tanker has been ordered by the U.A.E, Saudi Arabia, Portugal and Australian air forces while the Boeing KC-X was unveiled only in mid-2010 and the U.S. tanker contest is is first major bid. The IL-78 has been an old workhorse for Russia, India and china At Aero India 2009 , the Il-78 had made a demonstration refueling two aircraft simultaneously. It is quite likely that it may repeat this feat with the LCA Tejas at Aero India 2011.

 

[sancho]

@Sancho....
Though Griphen NG is not poweful like Rafale or EFT at present... But being a small single engine multi role , If it had AESA, IRST etc.. it will really had muscle to our Fleet.. Though my Favourite was EFT... but considering the numbers of twin engine + Quality in our current fleet i feel Griphen is the best option ..... further more Griphen NG will be customized according to indian requirement like Indian weapons.. ability to take off from Roads + hot refuleing etc which impressed IAF very much .... Only thing is it is late ... if the above requirements exist now.. Griphen NG would have been the best option.. Still it is the best option but not yet complete... Too say in simple terms... Quality for the unmatched cost...

There is no doubt about the cost advantage of Gripen and I do think that it is a capable fighter in A2A (one could say Gripen EF will be a downgraded EF T3 in the A2A role, because it offers everything the EF offers in this field, only in less capable versions). But that is also the problem, because India has it's own fighter for this cost-effective A2A role, the Tejas!
And it is not important if Tejas MK2 will be equally good as Gripen E/F or not, but that the difference will only be very small compared to the difference to real medium class fighters like F16, Rafale...

Basic spec comparison (LCA MK1, MK2 expected, Gripen E/F, F16IN, Rafale, EF):

Emptyweight - 6.5t / 6.5 - 7t / 7.1t / 10t / 9.5t / 11t
MTOW - 13.5t / 14 - 16t / 16.5t / 21t / 24.5t / 23.5t
Internal fuel - 2.4t / 3+t / 3.3t / 3.2t + CFTs / 4.7t / 4.9t
Weapon stations - 7+1 / 7(9) + 1? / 7(9) + 1 / 11 + 2 / 9(12) + 2 / 13 + 0
Dry thrust - 54kN / 62.3kN / 62.3kN / 84kN / 100kN / 120kN


So adding Gripen NG along side of Tejas means of course low costs, but only a minimal improvement of IAF capabilities, especially in A2G roles.
When you add the lack of political and strategic advantages, less ToT and offsets compared to the other Eurocanards, the fact that it's not ready and as admitted from the Saab India official, the lack of support during war times, it offers way too less for us, to be the winner of the biggest fighter competition of the world.


Btw, please don't fall on SAABs PR!
Benny's post showed that landing on roads is even possible with F18s and I guess we all know the conditions of Indian roads, so that's not a requirement for sure. Even the hot refuelling is nothing special for Gripen only:

...The built-in Auxiliary Power Unit provides electrical power until the engine-driven generators come on line. During exercise "Trident d'Or", French Naval Aviators validated the RAFALE hot refuelling procedure....

Low operating costs

 

[sancho]

India’s MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid

Not really, because any tanker will be able to refuel the MMRCAs, but which tankers will be able to refuel P8I and C17?

 

[SpArK]

Eurofighter At Aero India 2011​

 

[GORKHALI]

Not really, because any tanker will be able to refuel the MMRCAs, but which tankers will be able to refuel P8I and C17?

SANCHO JI mujhe kue dosh deto ho hahaha

 

[GORKHALI]

anyone who can help me to put lots of xclusive details in Indian Airforce thread about APACHE 64 D block II here's the link
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: EVERTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT APACHE AH 64 D BLOCK II IS HERE thanks in advance lol

 

[kingdurgaking]

There is no doubt about the cost advantage of Gripen and I do think that it is a capable fighter in A2A (one could say Gripen EF will be a downgraded EF T3 in the A2A role, because it offers everything the EF offers in this field, only in less capable versions). But that is also the problem, because India has it's own fighter for this cost-effective A2A role, the Tejas!
And it is not important if Tejas MK2 will be equally good as Gripen E/F or not, but that the difference will only be very small compared to the difference to real medium class fighters like F16, Rafale...

Basic spec comparison (LCA MK1, MK2 expected, Gripen E/F, F16IN, Rafale, EF):

Emptyweight - 6.5t / 6.5 - 7t / 7.1t / 10t / 9.5t / 11t
MTOW - 13.5t / 14 - 16t / 16.5t / 21t / 24.5t / 23.5t
Internal fuel - 2.4t / 3+t / 3.3t / 3.2t + CFTs / 4.7t / 4.9t
Weapon stations - 7+1 / 7(9) + 1? / 7(9) + 1 / 11 + 2 / 9(12) + 2 / 13 + 0
Dry thrust - 54kN / 62.3kN / 62.3kN / 84kN / 100kN / 120kN


So adding Gripen NG along side of Tejas means of course low costs, but only a minimal improvement of IAF capabilities, especially in A2G roles.
When you add the lack of political and strategic advantages, less ToT and offsets compared to the other Eurocanards, the fact that it's not ready and as admitted from the Saab India official, the lack of support during war times, it offers way too less for us, to be the winner of the biggest fighter competition of the world.


Btw, please don't fall on SAABs PR!
Benny's post showed that landing on roads is even possible with F18s and I guess we all know the conditions of Indian roads, syo that's not a requirement for sure. Even the hot refuelling is nothing special for Gripen only:


Low operating costs

if Griphen NG comes to Next level and L1 is the only candidate ... I think NG will get the chance.. From the level of Mirage from which MRCA issued to MMRCA level Griphen will be the best choice if available on time.. Further we will be having lot of twin engine fighter by 2020.. so in order to have a mix of hi-lo ... then Griphen is the outmost choice... If it is able to land on roads and do hot refuelling in the cost it provides dont you think it is a good choice?..
As per political decision i dont think any one will add any value except US ... and if IAF doesnt choose Fteens.. and if NG is delivered on time ...


No wonder Tejas-MK2 is trying to compete to the level of NG...it is the kind of platform which IAF feels enough to defend China massive fleet... Can we compare the weapon load capability of F-16 , J-20 with NG.. i think that is the level IAF is looking for... I dont think IAF excepts best of the best.. it needs a good platform ... even IAF hinted cost is a important factor