Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gubbi]

A program is beginning that would give American “teen series” fighters this capability, albeit in a somewhat unusual way…

Now what would that be? Any idea?

 

[Novice09]

I Really don't want MIG-35 and F16 in this race.

Therefore, my preference would be as below:
EuroFighter
SH 18
Rafael
Grippen

I'll keep providing the reasons for same in my upcoming posts

 

[SU-57E]

my 1st preference also would be eurofighter only as it is one of the best plane in the competition . it also brings political leverage. and above all they are giving us the opportunity to be partner.
feel free to comment.........

 

[MZUBAIR]

Boeing to offer more powerful engines for F-18 to India

Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Paul Oliver, Boeing’s senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing’s proposal to win the MMRCA contract.

Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.

The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20% increase in thrust by improving the engine’s hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.

Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.

Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen
Boeing to offer more powerful engines for F-18 to India IDRW.ORG

I think F-18 would be best among all. Acc to the need of Indian Air force and Navy.

 

[MZUBAIR]

I feel competition between EuroFighter & SH 18. Other will go down

 

[sancho]

Politically, France(and Sweden) will sell to anybody that can buy it without restrictions, and have a nasty habit of having second thoughts during conflicts. US and Russia are relatively safe options.
Now that's a strange comment, isn't it US that posed sanctions on India and prefered Pakistan for years. Now that money and a big market is available US is ready to give us anything. France sells to both too, but they were reliable during sanctions and supported Indias permenant seat in the UN.
Britain is the most influential member of the EADS consortium and has strong relations with India.

That's wrong, Germany and France are the powers behind EADS, Britain/BAE is only a smaller part behing Airbus which is a subsidiary company of EADS. That's why France for sure will offer EADS products, or jv combined with the Rafale offer, like they did in Brazil too (Eurocopter helicopters, partnership on Embraers transport aircraft development).

I was talking about speeds during aerial engagements not the mission profiles of the aircrafts. Delta wings have both positive and negative features/characteristics. In any case the Superhornet's performance especially at low speeds is excellent.

But MMRCA will be the main frontline aircraft alongside MKI, so it's performance against PAF, or PLAAF fighters will be a main requirement too, don't you think? That's why I said, the US weapon pack will be a bigger advantage, than the slow speed capabilities. But these weapons are available on F16IN and most of the Eurocarnards too.

They found the Rafale handles better. That's only one facet of the aircraft.

Agreed, but there are also more points where thr Rafale is better t/w ratio, logistics, ToT, co-developments and even some arms. The Rafale itself and the whole deal offers imo the best alround performance. Many good points in not only some parts, but several different parts.

Getting access to the US munitions inventory would be a far bigger draw than being able to integrate MICAs and Exocets to the aircraft. In any case, the aircraft can be wired to accept most munitions if requested by the IAF

Sure, but you are forgetting Scalp cruise missile, AASM, later Meteor which are latest weapons comparable, or even better and don't forget that some US weapons are cleared for Rafale too (as far as I know, Paveway bombs, Harm and Harpoon and if customers wants also Aim 9 and AMRAAM).

JDAMs with the DAMASK seeker(production started in 2007) have a CEP of 3m without GPS assistance. Also, the LJDAM can hit mobile units.
The JDAM deliveries started in 1997 as opposed to the AASM which started being delivered in 2007. Which only goes to illustrate how the US military in general has always been ahead of the curve.

That's what I said, US developed such kits earlier and now in huge numbers, that's why they are cheaper. AASM with 1 CEP versions is better and only in the first stages of the development, so it has a greater potential.

Well the only significant orders are likely to come from Brazil or India. In Brazil, Embraer has clearly stated a preference for the Gripen NG(giving it the opportunity to be more involved in the development) while the Rafale doesn't seem to have a better-than-average shot at the Indian MRCA contract.

UAE 60, that alone woulde be 3 times more than Super Hornets for foreign operators, not to mention 100+ from Brazil and India each

Australia didn't get only a light version, the RAAF ordered all its F-18E/Fs in a Growler-lite configuration.

Sure, they only wanted the inferior Growler. No mate, America don't like to share such techs.

BTW, I'd personally like the IAF to opt for the Eurofighter, not the SH or Rafale, but I don't think that's going to happen. With the delay that this contract has gone through, it would make better sense to go for the best one on offer. At least the marginal gain in potency will offset the more-than-probable delays in future IAF orders.

I like the EF too, but it is too obvious that it won't be fully developed soon and that it will face further delays. That is not exactable for IAF at such a high unit cost, for Saudi Arabia instead, whithout a real threat and as shiny toys they will be good.

 

[sancho]

I'm not saying that RCS reducing measures aren't there on the EF and Rafale. But, the idea that the Rafale is stealthier than an SH is flawed.

Try to understand that the Superhornet is a base Hornet with improvements. The Hornet had not enough range and speed, that's why the SH is bigger now and has more internal fuel, also the air intakes was redesigned to be big enough for the upgraded GE414 engine.
The features you mention for RCS reduction will help, but won't make it a stealth fighter, because the main design is still the same (imo same goes for Mig 35 and Gripen NG). EF and Rafale on the other side a totally new developed design and the design itself aimed for very low RCS, not only the use other materials. They won't be stealthfighters too, but it is easier to develop such a design right from the start, than redesign it later. Just look at the F15 Silent Eagle, it is redesigned and of course with the experience that Boeing had in developing stealth fighters. But even RAM coatings, special materials and internal weapon stations, can't equalise the big size and design of it.


Found this in another forum:

Visible stealth features on Rafale:

Serrated area (airframe, Inlets)

48* leading edge sweep.

IR Superssion for M88.

S-shaped inlet, M88 vanes, 5th generation core system architecture

 

[RPK]

India: Fighter Jet Deal Trials Likely to End July - WSJ.com

MUMBAI -- Field trials by six aircraft makers -- including Boeing Co. and Dassault Aviation SA -- for an estimated $10 billion Indian Air Force contract will likely be completed by July, an Indian minister said Wednesday.

"They (the trials) are expected to get over some time in June or July next year because testing has to be done across both the winter and summer seasons," M.M. Pallam Raju, junior defense minister, said on the sidelines of an industry conference.

Boeing is offering the F/A-18 fighter jet for the 126 multi-role combat aircraft deal, while Dassault has put up the Rafale.

Vivek Lall, vice president and India head for Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said in October that the F/A-18 recently completed the second phase of trials in India's Leh, Jaisalmer and Bangalore areas.

The third phase will start in the U.S. in February.

Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-16 Falcon, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon -- produced by a consortium of European companies--are also competing for the contract.

India plans to buy the 126 jets, as well as advanced helicopters and other defense equipment, to modernize its mainly Soviet-vintage defense forces. The Indian Air Force has 1,700 aircraft, including helicopters and transport planes, according to its Web site.

India, which is among the world's top arms importers, has earmarked 1.42 trillion rupees ($30.7 billion) as capital expenditure on defense for the current fiscal year through March 2010, up from 1.06 trillion rupees in the previous year.

Mr. Raju said 30%-40% of this year's defense budget has been spent so far.

Under current rules, foreign companies which receive import orders in excess of 3 billion rupees must draw at least 30% of that order from domestic suppliers or make a similar sized investment within India, in what is known as an offset.

"The offset obligation for this (126-fighter jet) order is 50%," said Mr. Raju

 

[Novice09]

The six competing MRCA aircraft. (L-R): Rafale, Typhoon, F-16C/D, F/A-18E/F, JAS 39 Gripen and MiG-35. (Note: from Wiki)

 

[Novice09]

Reasons to oust MIG 35:

- This is a new plane which have to prove its worthiness.
- By getting this FJ India would (specially IAF) be badly depending on Russia to fulfill our defense needs.
- Track record of Russians for providing product support is very bad.
- Recent Russian demands for renegotiation of earlier contracts (specially in case of Gorkshov)

Those who think that Russia is our all time friend, I 100% agree with you. But when it comes to BUSINESS I don't think that their are friends and foes.

By MRCA we are investing a huge amount of $$$$ and you can't make decisions on emotional basis.

These are my personal views. please feel free to disagree

 

[ironman]

The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.

The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs. The baseline F414-GE-400, which also powers the Saab Gripen demonstration aircraft, is itself a 35% higher thrust version of the F404 and entered service with the Super Hornet fleet in 1998.

Boeing held a meeting last week in India and said that they are offering the GE F 414 EPE engine for the Indian SH which increases the thrust per engine from 98KN to 118KN+ or 196 KN per aircraft to 236KN+, the same engine is also being offered for the LCA's mk-2 engine contest where the EJ2000 and GE F414 EPE will go head to head. EJ2000 is offering MATV however the thrust is 90KN just enough for the LCA mk-2 while Ge's F 414 EPE has a lot more thrust, but is also slightly heavier. the new GE engine reduces the fuel burn of the SH by 1%. Engine change can be done in less than 30mins and engines are left and right interchangeable. EJ2000 on the other hand boasts engine change in 45 mins. The EJ is also much more expensive with the engine costing over 10 million while the GE 414 comes for around half that. Boeing is also offering a 9-G superhornet unlike the USN's 7.5 g aircraft, this will require changes to the flight control system.

ie 118Kn each... good going. Even good news is LCA Mk2 gonna be a MMRCA.

 

[marcos98]

Eurofighter: AESA decision by February
Industry hopes to deliver proposals to the Typhoon partner nations to fit an active electronically scanned radar on the fighter by the end of the year according to Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini.A decision by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain on whether to proceed could come by February, he said.

Some industry executives thouh wonder whether funding constraints amongst the partner nations might make that approval date slip to the right.

Speaking at the show Casolini said he believed that adopting the new radar technology and the new MBDA Meteor ram-jet missile by 2015 is a fundamental requirement for current users and the aircraft’s future export prospects.

Eurofighter is already embroiled in key export campaigns in India and Japan where an AESA radar capability is essential.

Saudi Arabia,Typhoon’s biggest export customer to date, would fall in behind what the British Royal Air Force does, he said.

The British have been the strongest supporters of AESA technology for Typhoon for operational and export reasons, followed by Germany.

The Eurofighter boss said he was confident industry could deliver an “affordable and technically feasible” proposal to the partner nations.

A study involving industry and the partner nations has focused on two options. One is converting the current mechanically scanned Captor radar to electronic scan known as Captor-E.

Casolini said though his perception is that a new Selex Galileo radar which uses novel swashplate technology will be adopted.

A Selex radar using the same technology has already been selected by Saab for the Gripen NG fighter development being offered in Brazilian and Indian fighter competitions.

Swashplate technology allows the radar to reposition, giving it a wider scan than current AESA systems offered by U.S. manufacturers.

 

[sudhir007]

Indian IT firms eye IAF’s combat aircraft project

Six global vendors have been shortlisted.Indian information technology companies are eyeing the $10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft deal, up for grabs from the Indian Air Force.

Of this, about $1-1.5 billion (Rs 4,600-6,900 crore) is the size of the total IT integrated services pie, that would include engineering services and IT services, said industry sources.

One of the largest deals, the $10 billion budget by the Indian Air Force for 126 multi-role combat aircraft is being eyed by global players. Six global vendors — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Mirage, Russian Aircraft Corp’s MiG, Saab
Indian IT firms eye IAF’s combat aircraft project IDRW.ORG

 

[SU-57E]

@dore00011

what the **** is this, turning the thread to advertising board.

 

[gubbi]

@dore00011

what the **** is this, turning the thread to advertising board.

That is a spammer post. Report and ignore such posts.