Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Mig-29]

Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013

Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country.


ASIAN DEFENCE: Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013

 

[Developereo]

I suspect India's decision on MRCA will have less to do with ancillary issues like ToT or maintenance, and more with countering projected PLA-AF capabilities in the relevant timeframe.

 

[ihero06]

Interesting topic!
I personally feel that for IAF, Grippen would have been a better choice, considering its compactness and prize. It suits their LCA programs too.

Though I do not have any admiration for GoI, IAF is really professional. And here, IAF is showing its cunningness. Maverick is right, while evaluating world's fighters, they can learn and study the pros and cons of these machines individually. I always wondered why IAF should invite 6 just for one. Probably they want to incorporate all those best technologies in their future home built MCA.

 

[Developereo]

one thing is for sure IAF will learn the secrets of all of these very powerful warplanes in coming weeks.

Very usefull data base and learning curve for IAF future LCA MK2 plans

You've got to be kidding!

By your logic, if someone reads the sales brochure for a Ferrari and takes one out for a test drive, then they can build one the following week.

 

[maverick2009]

No Developero.

Nobody said anything about developing anything.

But very importantly the IAF can see which of these fighters best fits IAF needs eg,

1. best suits/fits in with the SU30MKI & Phalcon combo.
2. The different extreeme altitudes and climates.

3. How each plane handles in Sub continent in air combat ground strike missions.

4. Wat are the comparisons ie PROS & CONS of each fighter plane.

5. Network centric operations.

6. Future upgrade plans of Typhoon & Rafale etc.

India is about to spend $10-15 billion on a major weapon system that will gurantee thousands of jobs in the west AND YOU COMPARE it to buying a car ie a TEST DRIVE.

The indians are VERY SMART and very thorough they will go thru each plane in detail..

 

[sancho]

Broadsword: Duel in the sky: Testing the MMRCAs and rating their chances
Read the full article here

Some strange pros and cons of the author I must say!

Why is the MTOW of every double engine fighter a con, except the also heavy weight of Mig 35?
Why is combat experience of Rafale limited and a con and no combat experience of Mig 35 not even mentioned?
What about full dependence to Russia?
Why is the willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment a pro at Gripen NG, but not at Rafale which offers the same and FULL ToT?
Why is Supercruise a pro at Gripen NG even though the EF proves this capability years before?
and so on

I have also herd on other websites IAF may surpise us all and give the contract to GRIPEN.

Based on cost alone this deal will only cost around $8 billion and is a very contemporary fighter.

Should be very interesting one thing is for sure IAF will learn the secrets of all of these very powerful warplanes in coming weeks.

Very usefull data base and learning curve for IAF future LCA MK2 plans

Doubtful because, although it might be cheap in maintenance it won't offer the advantages that the other fighters offers in comparison to LCA MK2. The LCA will also have AESA radar, an engine with comparable thrust (possibly even with TVC and SC capabilities) like the Gripen NG, a payload between the older Gripen and the new Gripen NG, IRST and latest avionics, will cost way less then the Gripen NG (offer to Dutch AF was nearly $70 million dollar system price a unit) and is also cheap in maintenance. So why should IAF spend so much if Gripen NG won't be much more capable than the LCA MK2?
The other fighters offers more payload, most of them are fully developed and combat proven, can provide techs to LCA, that Gripen NG can only do with approval of other nations and IAF has already experience with some of them.

 

[sancho]

I suspect India's decision on MRCA will have less to do with ancillary issues like ToT or maintenance, and more with countering projected PLA-AF capabilities in the relevant timeframe.

J10B? Nearly all MMRCA will be at least on par (F16IN, Gripen NG) if not superior to them, so that won't be a real requirement.

 

[Lankan Ranger]

Is Gripen NG (Next Generation) Fighter jet best choice for India?

Gripen NG Specifications

Role – Multi-role fighter.
Manufacturer - Saab.
Introduction - 9 June 1996.
Unit cost - US$40-60 million.

Gripen NG - The new Gripen NG (Next Generation) will have many new parts and will be powered by the GE/Volvo Aero F414G, a development of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet engine. The engine will produce 20% more thrust at 98 kN (22,000 lbf), enabling a supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 with air-to-air missiles.

The Gripen NG for India in short:

A powerful and proven engine.
AESA radar.
Advanced Communication systems.
Tactical Data Link.
Supercruise.
Advanced Electronic warfare.
Strategic reach.
Advanced Weapons Capacity.

Why India should choose Gripen NG:

Gripen NG is the world’s one of the most technologically advanced multi-role fighter aircraft with built in Net centric warfare (NCW) technologies and capabilities.

Gripen NG will meet or exceed every operational requirement raised by the Indian Air Force in all roles - Air to Air Fighter BVR/WVR, Air to Surface land and sea and Reconnaissance.

Gripen NG will provide exceptional autonomous multi and swing role capability in normal and hostile FOB operations, and act as a perfect force multiplier.

Gripen NG will, over life, have a substantially lower real Life Cycle Cost than its nearest single engined competitor, and is able to operate at a fraction of the cost of its twin engined competitors.

Gripen NG is the best option for India delivering next generation technical and military capabilities.

Gripen NG will allow India to become a significant partner in the development programme and become a platform for future technology programmes.

In combination with the Industrial Cooperation program, Gripen’s program for industrial establishment will make India by 2020 completely independent of the need to purchase Gripen NG aircraft from other countries and make it an exporter of Gripen NG aircraft like Sweden.

Operational capability:

As a Next Generation multi-role fighter Gripen NG has the operational range, payload and built-in Net Centric Warfare (NCW) capability to meet all the roles as defined by the Indian Air Force; both national and regional expeditionary. India’s Net Centric Warfare (NCW) capability will be significantly enhanced by operating the Gripen NG in combination with the Embraer E-99 ERIEYE system.

Advanced Weapons System:

Gripen NG has a fully integrated sensor suite with total weapon flexibility and is able to carry weapons sourced from suppliers worldwide. Survivability is assured through a balance between low radar, Infra-Red and visible signatures and a highly advanced modular Electronic Warfare and Self-Protection system.

Support solution:

The logistics concept is designed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force and makes maximum usage of existing India’s infrastructure.

The training programme utilizes the existing infra-structure together with synthetic training aids and the Gripen system in order to maximize the training benefit.

Partnership

India will become partner with the Sweden in the design, development and integration of future technology programmes for the Gripen NG. Early Indian involvement in the Gripen NG design and development will give the Indian Air Force and industry unrivalled access to all levels of technology now and for the future.

Offset:

The proposal will deliver Offset equal to the contract value. The Offset programme will transfer unique and advanced technologies and know-how to appropriate India’s industrial and institutional parties with the objective of developing national capabilities.

Production and Maintenance:

The commitment to India’s aerospace includes the option for manufacturing of Gripen NG parts and assemblies and Gripen NG Final assembly in India.

The maintenance concept is tailored to meet the requirements and
capabilities of the India’s Industry through - Establishment of a Gripen NG maintenance centre in India ensuring national autonomy and Extensive usage of existing India’s infrastructure securing cost savings and ensuring commonality.

Transfer of Technology:

The Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme will guarantee full involvement in future capability development and maximize India’s industrial autonomy through the transfer of unique and highly advanced competencies.

The Transfer of Technology will include - Design, development and integration of hardware, avionics, software and systems on the Gripen NG, Transfer of Advanced Technologies and key High-Tech competencies for example Sensor Fusion, Low-Observability (LO) and Stealth, Saab guarantees unrivalled access to all levels of technology, including full access to Gripen NG source codes.

Continued Enhancement:

Gripen Next Generation (NG) is a considerably enhanced version of the already proven and in-service Gripen C/D multi-role fighter. Designed for combat in the 21st Century Net Centric Warfare (NCW) environment Gripen’s flexible and modular design makes continuous development and enhancement both low risk and cost effective. The Gripen NG programme covers development of all major sensors and avionics including data communication, self-protection systems, weapons integration, as well as airframe and propulsion enhancements.

Operational dominance:

India’s airspace boundaries requires an air defence and air combat fleet that will give it operational dominance along its borders and coastline over the next decades. The aircraft it requires should be able to deliver not only air power and air combat superiority but also logistical, multi-role and versatility in weapons and systems integration.

 

[ejaz007]

India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 17 Aug 2009 09:52

BANGALORE, India - India began trials Aug. 17 of fighter jets being hawked by the world's six top aerospace giants vying for a $12 billion military contract, officials said.

The sale of 126 combat planes to the technology-starved Indian Air Force will be the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract in more than a decade.

Military air traffic controllers said Boeing kicked off the trials with a display of its F-18 "Superhornet" jets in Bangalore, hub of India's aeronautical and space industry.

"Two F-18s carried out two sorties of 45 minutes each," a controller said as military aviation experts watched the exercise.

The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, defence ministry officials in New Delhi said.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin and Europe's EADS will be among the other firms descending on Bangalore.

India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system.

After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the Indian Air Force, the officials said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.

French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.

The lineup is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.

Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as frontrunners.

Contract stipulations prevent the contending firms from unveiling any detail of the contract, which includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 and another 108 to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more jets.

The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth-largest, is also spending $1.6 billion to buy 40 Russian Sukhoi fighter planes by 2010 and is shopping for hundreds of helicopters and transport planes.

India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets - Defense News

 

[MZUBAIR]

No Developero.

Nobody said anything about developing anything.

But very importantly the IAF can see which of these fighters best fits IAF needs eg,

1. best suits/fits in with the SU30MKI & Phalcon combo.
2. The different extreeme altitudes and climates.

3. How each plane handles in Sub continent in air combat ground strike missions.

4. Wat are the comparisons ie PROS & CONS of each fighter plane.

5. Network centric operations.

6. Future upgrade plans of Typhoon & Rafale etc.

India is about to spend $10-15 billion on a major weapon system that will gurantee thousands of jobs in the west AND YOU COMPARE it to buying a car ie a TEST DRIVE.

The indians are VERY SMART and very thorough they will go thru each plane in detail..

Yeah, India would probabily go through details and secrets of each craft.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 17 Aug 2009 09:52

BANGALORE, India - India began trials Aug. 17 of fighter jets being hawked by the world's six top aerospace giants vying for a $12 billion military contract, officials said.

The sale of 126 combat planes to the technology-starved Indian Air Force will be the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract in more than a decade.

Military air traffic controllers said Boeing kicked off the trials with a display of its F-18 "Superhornet" jets in Bangalore, hub of India's aeronautical and space industry.

"Two F-18s carried out two sorties of 45 minutes each," a controller said as military aviation experts watched the exercise.

The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, defence ministry officials in New Delhi said.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin and Europe's EADS will be among the other firms descending on Bangalore.

India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system.

After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the Indian Air Force, the officials said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.

French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.

The lineup is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.

Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as frontrunners.

Contract stipulations prevent the contending firms from unveiling any detail of the contract, which includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 and another 108 to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more jets.

The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth-largest, is also spending $1.6 billion to buy 40 Russian Sukhoi fighter planes by 2010 and is shopping for hundreds of helicopters and transport planes.

India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets - Defense News

good at last we r having it

F-18s is not offering full TOT, there will remain hegemony and dependence on Uncle Sam, personally for vote goes for Rafale & miG-35, there will be full ToT and Rafale is a also a good carrier based A/C & MiG-25 has got great maneuverability and IAF experience with MiGs will let this A/C adjust into existing IAF infra structure without much trouble

 

[Brahm0s]

good at last we r having it

F-18s is not offering full TOT, there will remain hegemony and dependence on Uncle Sam, personally for vote goes for Rafale & miG-35, there will be full ToT and Rafale is a also a good carrier based A/C & MiG-25 has got great maneuverability and IAF experience with MiGs will let this A/C adjust into existing IAF infra structure without much trouble

Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.

 

[sancho]

Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.

They didn't offer F35 instead of F16, they just said if we buy F16 IN now, we can have F35 sometimes in future. Also They don't even want to provide much ToT of such old fighters like F16 and F18, do you expect ToT and licence production of F35 in India? Not to forget that F35 is already delayed and will only come by 2016 for the member countries, for exports it will come later and by that time Pak Fa could be ready too.
Btw if delivery by time is a point, EF and Gripen NG also have less chances, because many features of them are still under development.

 

[Saint N sinnerr]

Face-to-face: rating their chances
Summary of MRCA aircrafts:- short and simle

F/A-18 Super Hornet: Overall chances: COOL

Pros
1. Battle-tested, frontline fighter with the US Navy
2. Powerful, agile, rugged, designed for aircraft carriers
3. Advanced avionics and missile systems
4. Can function as refuelling tanker with external fuel tanks
5. Fields fully-operational and deployed Raytheon APG-79 AESA radar

Cons
1. US restrictions on modifications and end usage
2. Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
3. Heavy, 30-ton aircraft, expensive



F-16IN Super Viper: Overall chances: WARM

Pros
1. Tested modern fighter, has logged over 100,000 combat missions globally
2. Single-engine, 19-tonne fighter, price competitive
3. Advanced avionics and missile systems
4. Advanced Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar
5. Four F-16 production lines functioning world-wide

Cons
1. US restrictions on modifications and end usage
2. Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
3. Earlier vintage F-16s in service with Pakistan Air Force


Eurofighter Typhoon: Overall chances: COOL

Pros
1. Contemporary fighter, still evolving
2. High performance, high-end technology, including supercruise
3. Offering India development partnership
4. No end user restrictions, easy transfer of technology
5. EADS already helping to develop India’s LCA

Cons
1. No combat experience
2. Heavy, 25-ton aircraft, expensive
3. AESA radar still under development


Saab Gripen NG: Overall chances: RED HOT

Pros
1. Only Eurofighter and Gripen are capable of Supercruise: supersonic flight without afterburners
2. Can land, refuel, rearm and take off in 10 minutes
3. Light, single-engine, highly cost-effective
4. Selex Raven AESA radar with advanced swashplate technology
5. Willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment

Cons
1. Has US components, including engines and avionics
2. AESA radar still under development
3. India has never operated a Swedish fighter


RAC MiG, MiG-35: Overall chances: HOT

Pros
1. Dovetails easily with IAF’s MiG-29 fleet
2. Typical Russian fast, agile fighter
3. Vastly improved avionics and targeting system
4. Thrust-vectoring engines option exists
5. Cheapest ticket price of twin-engine fighters

Cons
1. Airframe barely improved from MiG-29
2. Zhuk-Phazotron AESA radar still under development
3. Life cycle cost of Russian fighters is traditionally high


Dassault Rafale: Overall chances: DARK HORSE

Pros
1. Amongst the most contemporary options
2. France deploys on land and aircraft carriers
3. IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet creates comfort level with Dassault
4. Transfer of technology smooth; no end user restrictions
5. Only non-US fighter with deployed AESA radar

Cons
1. Limited combat experience
2. 25-tonne, twin-engine aircraft, expensive
3. Only contender never to have flown in India

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.

F-35 will be only offered if and only if u ppl choose F-16IN, which wont happen & u said India is looking for jets with full TOT, my BrahmOs Uncle Sam is not even ready for full ToT in case of F-16IN & F-18 & u think they will agree on ToT for F-35 hmmmm, and as for Time frame for delivery is concerned uptil now almost no fighter is fully complete except F-16IN & F-18 m AESA for EF n Rafale n MiG n Gripen are not ready yet...


"Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'"
expecting ToT for F-35 is called clever thinking