Carlos 'Cypher' Renato
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Yep, i think it is a great aircraft, but not for my country. :]
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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sancho
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Hi good to see some Brazilians here as well!
The reasons why Brazilian government wants Rafale is the same why I prefer Rafale for India:
- a politically independent choice
- the most ToT and offset advantages
- the most capable fighter in the competition
- a possible carrier fighter for the navy
France is a strategic partner for Brazil, just like Russia is to India. You get any weapon and tech from them, that the US for example wouldn't supply that easily. That's why you got a carrier before, now subs and assistance to build a nuclear sub fleet, a good source for fighters, helicopters and tanker aircrafts as well.
For India, France is a highly regarded partner as well, but this and the coming years will deepen the ties way more. Rafale is only one part, when you look at the list how much French arms and techs India might get and why, it's getting obvious how the relation will change.
No matter in which field, the French have high tech to offer us and they offer it without restrictions! That obviously has it's price, but for independent countries like Brazil or India, it's worth it and with the industrial advantage both countries can improve their indigenous aero fields too.
Gripen and F18SH might be cheaper, but offers your industry by far not the advantages that Rafale would bring and to be honest, the offer to set up a licence productionline in Brazil for just 36 fighter (possibly 24 for the navy) is very good, not even the UAE with 60 fighters will have that.
How cost effective is it though, to set up a production line for just 36 aircrafts? That might make the unit price of each plane much higher than buying off the shelf from france.
I wish they would place an order for these to be manufactured in India, that would bring down the unit cost for both brazil and india significantly.
sancho
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You have to think bigger here! For France, it's not just a deal for 36 to 60 fighters, but a strategic chance to get even deeper relations to Brazil and keep the US out of the market. Brazil is one of the growing economies and binding them to France is a big step, that's why the French government and most parts of the French industry is backing this deal. Recently they opened a joint branch for Thales, Safran and French EADS although the later is not involved in the fighter deal!
Also looking from the forces point of view, they actually are in a similar situation like IAF with up to 100 fighters to be phased out in the next years + the carrier fighters. Not to mention that the navy is interested in building 2 new carriers, again with French assistance, so even more carrier fighters are needed. All in all, the Indian deal is bigger, but the Brazilian competition could end up way bigger, especially for France and Rafale!
Yeti
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Final Price negotiation, agreeing tech transfer is a long process and so far we stated with L1 that the Rafale is cheaper now it is the crunch part of finalising a 'working contract' to be signed by both parties. The French will be hard nosed also with both parties negotiating until the final handshake.
Yeti
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With your land mass a 2 engine fighter would be more suited so i feel either the rafale or the F18 would be ideal fit.
sancho
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Carlos 'Cypher' Renato
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Yeah, but the really best offer was the Su-35, but the armed forces still have some worries with russian armament, so the government turned the offer down. :\
SpArK
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Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss
Cassidian has not given up hope of a Eurofighter win in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite the consortium holding "L2" vendor status behind the Dassault Rafale, says company chief executive Stefan Zoller.
"India is a campaign that is still running," Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.
Speaking during a financial briefing at the company's Unterschleissheim headquarters near Munich on 2 April, Zoller said: "We will see to what conclusion the Indian government will come."
A consequence of India having awarded L1 status to Dassault has been what Zoller describes as "more advanced discussions with our Eurofighter customers on how much faster we can integrate the additional capacity of the aircraft". This includes planned enhancements such as an active electronically scanned array radar, additional weapons and new reconnaissance and targeting systems.
"There is now far more willingness from the customers to converge and go ahead on those," he said.
The Eurofighter consortium had an exhibit at the 29 March-1 April Defexpo India show in New Delhi in support of its continued pursuit of the 126-aircraft MMRCA deal.
Zoller also disclosed the value of Cassidian's stake in a new five-year support contract signed by the four Eurofighter partner nations on 30 March.
Its €840 million ($1.1 billion) deal will cover the provision of in-service support to the air forces of Germany and Spain.
Alenia Aermacchi and BAE Systems last week valued their parts of the deal as worth a combined $1.38 billion.
Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss
Cassidian has not given up hope of a Eurofighter win in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite the consortium holding "L2" vendor status behind the Dassault Rafale, says company chief executive Stefan Zoller.
"India is a campaign that is still running," Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.
Speaking during a financial briefing at the company's Unterschleissheim headquarters near Munich on 2 April, Zoller said: "We will see to what conclusion the Indian government will come."
A consequence of India having awarded L1 status to Dassault has been what Zoller describes as "more advanced discussions with our Eurofighter customers on how much faster we can integrate the additional capacity of the aircraft". This includes planned enhancements such as an active electronically scanned array radar, additional weapons and new reconnaissance and targeting systems.
"There is now far more willingness from the customers to converge and go ahead on those," he said.
The Eurofighter consortium had an exhibit at the 29 March-1 April Defexpo India show in New Delhi in support of its continued pursuit of the 126-aircraft MMRCA deal.
Zoller also disclosed the value of Cassidian's stake in a new five-year support contract signed by the four Eurofighter partner nations on 30 March.
Its €840 million ($1.1 billion) deal will cover the provision of in-service support to the air forces of Germany and Spain.
Alenia Aermacchi and BAE Systems last week valued their parts of the deal as worth a combined $1.38 billion.
Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss
Abingdonboy
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Yeah okay buddy, believe what you like, I bet he will be saying the same come the induction of 1st SQD of Rafale. The panting is on the wall.
But I suspect this is the front he has to put on for the sake of the company, I wouldn't expect anything else.
But I suspect this is the front he has to put on for the sake of the company, I wouldn't expect anything else.
Dazzler
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Inaction Hovers Over Indian MMRCA Program
Apr 12, 2012
By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi
Such is India’s idiosyncratic procurement system that, in the run-up to the award of the $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, the joke was that the only thing worse than losing would be winning. For Dassault, that reality is not that far off.
After its Rafale offer beat out the Eurofighter Typhoon in January as the low-cost bidder for the MMRCA program, there has been much talk about the fate of the project, but very little action. Talks have been stuck since late February, with departmental inquiries into allegations that the final selection process was manipulated to favor Rafale.
Following weeks of uncertainty, Defense Minister A.K. Antony revealed last week that the program would move forward only after all inquiries were made and the ministry was satisfied that the selection process had not been corrupted. But that may not happen anytime soon.
“There are at least seven to eight more levels of scrutiny and process before the MMRCA contract can be signed,” Antony says. “The contract has to be vetted at multiple levels, including the finance ministry and the cabinet committee on security. Right now an inquiry is on. Only after we receive the inquiry report, study it and are satisfied that all processes have been followed unfailingly will the procurement effort move to the next level.”
Less than a month after the Rafale got the nod, the defense minister received a letter from M. V. Mysura Reddy, a member of the Indian parliament’s standing committee on defense, asking for an inquiry into the selection process.
Allegations of favoritism are not new in Indian defense contracting, and the MP’s letter could be the first of many twists in a journey that hardly suffers from a lack of drama and intrigue. Initially, officials indicated that the favoritism issue might only receive a cursory glance to satisfy the legislator’s concerns, but the process may now be more extensive.
Formally, negotiations between the Indian contract committee and Dassault have begun, but in reality the two parties have not met even once as a result of the complaint, according to officials close to the proceedings. The ministry has refused to divulge the nature of its inquiries, although in March it acknowledged that internal questions raised about the Rafale’s life-cycle cost had been looked at but dismissed.
A Dassault official says: “We are waiting to see if we can help with any information. We’ve worked with the Indian air force and [defense ministry] for years, and are confident that we have provided all the information necessary and are fully compliant with the selection process. The Rafale was selected because it was the better aircraft backed by a better industrial package.”
The delays are beginning to worry the eventual customer, however. Indian air force sources say IAF leader Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne, who met the defense minister last week as part of a defense acquisition council (DAC) meeting, raised both the MMRCA program and delays in a final contract for a basic trainer as issues of concern.
The Indian government doused speculation that India and Brazil would jointly negotiate with Dassault for a common best price on the Rafale. “That is impossible and can never happen,” Antony declares. Brazil is due to make a type selection among the Rafale, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Saab Gripen. A visit by Defense Minister Celso Amorim to India shortly after the Rafale selection gave rise to speculation that a partnership was in the offing, but that has been dismissed as merely coincidental. Furthermore, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff is due in Washington this week, and the F-X2 fighter competition also is expected to be on the agenda.
The company most eager to see the derailment of MMRCA talks is runner-up Eurofighter. Officials for EADS, the Typhoon partner in charge of the Indian campaign, have signaled that they view the contest as still in play. “As L2 [second-lowest bidder], we take our responsibility seriously,” a company official said during the recent Defexpo defense exhibition in New Delhi. “There is a larger concern that the Indian air force shouldn’t suffer on any count as a result of delays. They need their aircraft as soon as possible.”
The loss in India also has given rise to renewed interest in Europe for core Eurofighter governments to press forward with a radar upgrade to add an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) to the fighter. Eurofighter industrial partners have been self-funding the development in the absence of government backing. That has created uncertainty over the fielding schedule, although industry officials insist they could meet a 2015 objective. In contrast, the first Rafale with the Thales RBE2 production AESA is to fly this year; the first radar was recently delivered to Dassault for installation on C137, the aircraft to be used for the test campaign at the Istres flight test center in southern France. France would become the first European air force to field an AESA when the system becomes operational.
The fluid status has also led to continued political lobbying in India over the program. British Chancellor George Osborne, who visited India last week, is understood to have pushed Eurofighter’s case with the government. A French delegation also called on the country’s junior defense minister to see if it could gain more information about the inquiry.
Not all program activities are on ice, though. Hindustan Aeronautics, which will license-build 108 MMRCAs, has requested bids for a new design and manufacturing facility in Bengaluru for the new production line.
With Robert Wall in London.
Inaction Hovers Over Indian MMRCA Program | AVIATION WEEK
Apr 12, 2012
By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi
Such is India’s idiosyncratic procurement system that, in the run-up to the award of the $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, the joke was that the only thing worse than losing would be winning. For Dassault, that reality is not that far off.
After its Rafale offer beat out the Eurofighter Typhoon in January as the low-cost bidder for the MMRCA program, there has been much talk about the fate of the project, but very little action. Talks have been stuck since late February, with departmental inquiries into allegations that the final selection process was manipulated to favor Rafale.
Following weeks of uncertainty, Defense Minister A.K. Antony revealed last week that the program would move forward only after all inquiries were made and the ministry was satisfied that the selection process had not been corrupted. But that may not happen anytime soon.
“There are at least seven to eight more levels of scrutiny and process before the MMRCA contract can be signed,” Antony says. “The contract has to be vetted at multiple levels, including the finance ministry and the cabinet committee on security. Right now an inquiry is on. Only after we receive the inquiry report, study it and are satisfied that all processes have been followed unfailingly will the procurement effort move to the next level.”
Less than a month after the Rafale got the nod, the defense minister received a letter from M. V. Mysura Reddy, a member of the Indian parliament’s standing committee on defense, asking for an inquiry into the selection process.
Allegations of favoritism are not new in Indian defense contracting, and the MP’s letter could be the first of many twists in a journey that hardly suffers from a lack of drama and intrigue. Initially, officials indicated that the favoritism issue might only receive a cursory glance to satisfy the legislator’s concerns, but the process may now be more extensive.
Formally, negotiations between the Indian contract committee and Dassault have begun, but in reality the two parties have not met even once as a result of the complaint, according to officials close to the proceedings. The ministry has refused to divulge the nature of its inquiries, although in March it acknowledged that internal questions raised about the Rafale’s life-cycle cost had been looked at but dismissed.
A Dassault official says: “We are waiting to see if we can help with any information. We’ve worked with the Indian air force and [defense ministry] for years, and are confident that we have provided all the information necessary and are fully compliant with the selection process. The Rafale was selected because it was the better aircraft backed by a better industrial package.”
The delays are beginning to worry the eventual customer, however. Indian air force sources say IAF leader Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne, who met the defense minister last week as part of a defense acquisition council (DAC) meeting, raised both the MMRCA program and delays in a final contract for a basic trainer as issues of concern.
The Indian government doused speculation that India and Brazil would jointly negotiate with Dassault for a common best price on the Rafale. “That is impossible and can never happen,” Antony declares. Brazil is due to make a type selection among the Rafale, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Saab Gripen. A visit by Defense Minister Celso Amorim to India shortly after the Rafale selection gave rise to speculation that a partnership was in the offing, but that has been dismissed as merely coincidental. Furthermore, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff is due in Washington this week, and the F-X2 fighter competition also is expected to be on the agenda.
The company most eager to see the derailment of MMRCA talks is runner-up Eurofighter. Officials for EADS, the Typhoon partner in charge of the Indian campaign, have signaled that they view the contest as still in play. “As L2 [second-lowest bidder], we take our responsibility seriously,” a company official said during the recent Defexpo defense exhibition in New Delhi. “There is a larger concern that the Indian air force shouldn’t suffer on any count as a result of delays. They need their aircraft as soon as possible.”
The loss in India also has given rise to renewed interest in Europe for core Eurofighter governments to press forward with a radar upgrade to add an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) to the fighter. Eurofighter industrial partners have been self-funding the development in the absence of government backing. That has created uncertainty over the fielding schedule, although industry officials insist they could meet a 2015 objective. In contrast, the first Rafale with the Thales RBE2 production AESA is to fly this year; the first radar was recently delivered to Dassault for installation on C137, the aircraft to be used for the test campaign at the Istres flight test center in southern France. France would become the first European air force to field an AESA when the system becomes operational.
The fluid status has also led to continued political lobbying in India over the program. British Chancellor George Osborne, who visited India last week, is understood to have pushed Eurofighter’s case with the government. A French delegation also called on the country’s junior defense minister to see if it could gain more information about the inquiry.
Not all program activities are on ice, though. Hindustan Aeronautics, which will license-build 108 MMRCAs, has requested bids for a new design and manufacturing facility in Bengaluru for the new production line.
With Robert Wall in London.
Inaction Hovers Over Indian MMRCA Program | AVIATION WEEK
article sounds more Brithish than I expect 
may be with the additional 60 fighter to fill in gaps. 40 a/c off the shelf in 3 years
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