Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hello_10]

Can Mrca beat China's J20?

Sir, it is foolish to compare a working aircraft with the one which in development. I had to face a logical question a year before, “How can we say 5th gen stealth F22 is a capable aircraft which was developed by US in 90s while the same US is facing so many problems for their new 5th gen F35/ JSF?” then we concluded, “As F22 certainly had stealth features, US has it in the number somewhere close to 200 but as this aircraft would also have the similar problems like F35, obviously, they neither have this aircraft in large number and at the same time IOC of their new 5th gen F35 is delayed to 2018, the ‘earliest’, to fix these problems. I even heard that they are now going back to design phase of F35/ JSF and starting it again, which has extended it IOC to at least 2018 ”

And at the present, it is found that the US’s latest 5th gen F35 would be consistently beaten by SU35/ SU30MKI in dog fight. neither F35 can move nor run once it will get caught by SU35BM or Super Sukhoi 30, (check my previous post with reference), while these two Russian aircrafts will also have many stealth features after 4-5 years. And the news we are getting that Omni role Rafale is first rated as the best aircraft for A2G/ multi role operations, and at the same time it will be capable enough to dodge any incoming missile in a2a dog fight also, (like we have a report by AUstralian scientists in my previous posts), a true 'Omni role' feature of Rafale. Rafale has also performed excellent in different a2a dog fights in air shows and it is also believed to beat the high end air superiority aircrafts easily

And now we have to fit J20 with this analysis, then here, we have seen publicity of F35 for last over 10 years and now it looks like a crap while US has spent over $300bn on this project till now, then how can we believe J20, whose first flight was just a year before, can see its induction by 2020? Neither US’s arm industry is backward to China, definitely not, nor China could still reach that level of development of J20 where US is facing real challenge with F35 right now? Hence, in today’s world, with stealth features of Rafale, F15SE, SU35BM, with future upgrades of EFT Typhoon also, hopefully we will see only these four aircrafts as the four best aircrafts in the world till 2025/30 and afterwards. As, first we doubt ‘hidden’ capabilities of F22 and then we still have to wait for at least a decade for J20 and PAK FA to have clearer idea about them, like how F35 have passed over a decade of testing and need one more decade, if .............. (check my previous posts with reference of Australian air combat analysts)

 

[kingdurgaking]

^^ Really an excellent thought.... very logical...

But need to add one more thing F-22 is a 2win engine and F-35 is a single engine... secondly technology aspect in F-35 is far more advanced and densely packed compared to F-22. The stealth itself is not reused from F-22 but a new one is tried to iron out the issues which F-22 has... F-35 is being developed to have a very low life cycle.. as compared to F-22 because F-22 is developed keeping cold war in mind while F-35 is for US security and power projection

 

[Hello_10]

^^ Really an excellent thought.... very logical...

But need to add one more thing F-22 is a 2win engine and F-35 is a single engine... secondly technology aspect in F-35 is far more advanced and densely packed compared to F-22. The stealth itself is not reused from F-22 but a new one is tried to iron out the issues which F-22 has... F-35 is being developed to have a very low life cycle.. as compared to F-22 because F-22 is developed keeping cold war in mind while F-35 is for US security and power projection

yes its clear that F22 would only have stealth tech but would be lacking many other combat capabilities, at the same time US is still facing so many problems with their new 5th gen F35 that now they are going back to even design phase to fix the problems they have during operations????????? J20 will face the real challenge associated with 5th gen stealth tech from 2016/ 17 when they will find that they would now go back to design phase again and start, like this F35. Copying/ cloning aircrafts and doing something by ourselves is different, specially if it is a 5th gen aircraft which has consumed a heavy amount of the best arm industry of the world, US, but still no result.

We would see Rafale with stealth feature, F15SE, SU35BM/ stealth SU30MKI, with upgraded EFT Typhoon as the four leading aircrafts till 2025/ 30, highly likely………

 

[ptltejas]

I think for stealth F 22 is best and in active inventory. Stealth and aerodynamic j 20 is best perhaps then any air craft (as the model of j 20 rc(remote controll) working on best as one clkp of RCj 20 youtube tell its best aerodynamic. How we can under estimate capacity of f 22 or j 2) stealth feature. They are far better than 4 gen.
Under estimate this killing machines is not good Mr. Hello 10

 

[500]

which clearly shows every 4th gen plane can detect other 4 th generation plane before it enters the missile no escape zone... so how does a RCS matter now tell me?

63 km is well within no escape zone. Also its always good to detect before to prepare and chose position. Also when u employ EW detection range will decrease even further. Its much easier to hide small RCS target with countermeasures. For example modernized MiG-21 are very hard targets when they employ EW, because of their small RCS.

Finally reduced RCS also seriously (about 1.5 times) decrease reaction time of SAMs. Thats often can be the difference between life and death. With EW difference will be even bigger.

 

[ptltejas]

I think EW jtself give evidence of its existence at particular place. The detectors find the frequency and place by aplying trignometery.

 

[The enlightened]

“How can we say 5th gen stealth F22 is a capable aircraft which was developed by US in 90s

Are you a kid. So what if F22 was made in the 90’s. Is 90’s a bad period for aircraft[shani or mangal or something]. Even our beloved MKI was made in 90’s, Does that make it a bad aircraft.

And at the present, it is found that the US’s latest 5th gen F35 would be consistently beaten by SU35/ SU30MKI in dog fight.

Flankers will not even get to the merge with F35 let alone outmanouver it. And even if they do, what do you think High of Boresight missiles are for.

Hence, in today’s world, with stealth features of Rafale, F15SE, SU35BM, with future upgrades of EFT Typhoon also, hopefully we will see only these four aircrafts as the four best aircrafts in the world till 2025/30 and afterwards

F35 for last over 10 years and now it looks like a crap while US has spent over $300bn on this project till now,

These, for example say a lot about your maturity and general knowledge about Fighter Jets. My advice- do a lot more homework before you post again on these threads.

(like we have a report by AUstralian scientists in my previous posts)

Have the Aussies done a detailed assesment about the performance and are in the know of every piece of technology the F35 posseses. Grow up, kid.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

Bhai Log ...!!!! ............Khoosha Khabar ................. MMRCA ke Paise ka intezaam ho gaya hai ..................





Thanks to the Supreme Court of India ......They have squashed all 122 licenses in 2G case and asked the GOI to re auction them within next four months.

So if all goes well then in next four months then government will be able to collect more than enough money to finance 200 Rafales at one go .

Pranav Mukarjee will be jumping with joy with this order which would take care of his most of fiscal deficit worries.

Supreme Court of India ...............Jai hooooooooooooooooo !!!!

 

[Hello_10]

Are you a kid. So what if F22 was made in the 90’s. Is 90’s a bad period for aircraft[shani or mangal or something]. Even our beloved MKI was made in 90’s, Does that make it a bad aircraft.

Flankers will not even get to the merge with F35 let alone outmanouver it. And even if they do, what do you think High of Boresight missiles are for.



These, for example say a lot about your maturity and general knowledge about Fighter Jets. My advice- do a lot more homework before you post again on these threads.

Have the Aussies done a detailed assesment about the performance and are in the know of every piece of technology the F35 posseses. Grow up, kid.

first, MKI of 90's and F16/Mig29 of 80's have proved their performance on field while no one knows about F22 while a similar type US's F35 is still not active, means no guarantee whether it will be said to be of any decade.

second, if defense's Air Combat Analysts of a developed country like Australia, which is also member of G20 economies, say something then it would mean more than what any great internet warrior says including you also, isnt it?

And, as most of the key techs of 90’s F22 are ‘unknown’, (old and it is no more in production any more), and also the condition of US’s latest 5th gen F35 we can see right now, as it would now be in production line but its IOC has now been extended to fix few basic problems? then here, if you can trust me then I can tell you that you will read the similar news about J20 also after just 5-6 years from now, as both are similar type 5th gen aircrafts, just one has single engine and other one has twine. As, It will be either US who will clear IOC for F35, or, China will also make around 100 J20 aircrafts of the type they have tested to have few stealth type aircrafts but their future air defense will not rely on this so called 5th gen stealth aircrafts. (similarly how EU doesn’t have any 5th gen program, as, may be they already know where 5th gen project will be ended up?)

Measuring performance of aircrafts on paper and on ground is quite different. I have been reading about superiorities of F35/ JSF for last over 7-8 years and the final outcome, its IOC is now delayed for 7-8 years more? I have also worked on designing of material handling and I would say, sometimes developing something new is easier than again going back and start from beginning on the basis of ‘ineffective’ experiences. Hence, for the 'first cut', I would also say the same as below, for both F35 and J20 also, (considering J20 a similar type aircraft, 5th gen stealth, which hasn’t faced those problems yet, which F35 is currently dealing with):

Independent air combat analysts from Air Power Australia have also stated that the F-35 is not capable of facing high end threats; that what will be delivered (if it ever arrives) will be obsolete; and that the F-35 is not affordable or sustainable.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4416.html

 

[The enlightened]

first, MKI of 90's and F16/Mig29 of 80's have proved their performance on field while no one knows about F22 while a similar type US's F35 is still not active, means no guarantee whether it will may be said to be of any decade.

So the said F22 is not exactly combat proven and F16/Mig29/Su27's are all supposedly combat proven. But that in no way discounts the capabilities of the Raptor unless you think that USAF has been ranting about the Raptor for all these years for nothing.
It's key tech's may be of the 90's era but they are still better than just about everything you can find on other platforms including your FAV 4- Rafa/Tiffy/Flankie and 'Old' silent Eagle. F22 was designed keeping in mind all the potential threats that could arise from Russia in the coming 2-3 Decades and they have more than succeeded with their goals.

second, if defense's Air Combat Analysts of a developed country like Australia, which is also member of G20 economies, say something then it would mean more than what any great internet warrior says including you also, isnt it?

Yes, they are but that doesn't mean that you take their word blindly. I am no aviation expert, but there are some things that don't require rocket science, simple common sense would do. And again as I said, these so called experts haven't looked under the hood of the JSF and have no friggin' knowledge about it other than what has been revealed intentionally. As for the rest of your post I think I have given my best in explaining to you some basic fundamental concepts and this is the 4th time I'm trying to explain the same friggin' thing again and now I am done with you for now. Later.
And since you have been following Defense news from the 90's, maybe you remember the story about C17, right?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

though fifth gen filters are not war proven American and Chinese have put it in combat situations with their war proven jets and other Sam systems...so it would be much close to a real war situation...

 

[kingdurgaking]

63 km is well within no escape zone. Also its always good to detect before to prepare and chose position. Also when u employ EW detection range will decrease even further. Its much easier to hide small RCS target with countermeasures. For example modernized MiG-21 are very hard targets when they employ EW, because of their small RCS.

Finally reduced RCS also seriously (about 1.5 times) decrease reaction time of SAMs. Thats often can be the difference between life and death. With EW difference will be even bigger.

I guess the best AIM 120D and meteor will have a no escape zone within 60 KM for sure.. secondly the RCS you are talking is not a fixed one and it varies when you carry a weapon under the wings and belly... because the fins on missiles , the missile surface the pylons and the drop tanks will definitely increases RCS tremendously ...

and your claim is on clean configuration which does not apply when they carry a missile

 

[Hello_10]

So the said F22 is not exactly combat proven and F16/Mig29/Su27's are all supposedly combat proven. But that in no way discounts the capabilities of the Raptor unless you think that USAF has been ranting about the Raptor for all these years for nothing.
It's key tech's may be of the 90's era but they are still better than just about everything you can find on other platforms including your FAV 4- Rafa/Tiffy/Flankie and 'Old' silent Eagle. F22 was designed keeping in mind all the potential threats that could arise from Russia in the coming 2-3 Decades and they have more than succeeded with their goals.

Yes, they are but that doesn't mean that you take their word blindly. I am no aviation expert, but there are some things that don't require rocket science, simple common sense would do. And again as I said, these so called experts haven't looked under the hood of the JSF and have no friggin' knowledge about it other than what has been revealed intentionally. As for the rest of your post I think I have given my best in explaining to you some basic fundamental concepts and this is the 4th time I'm trying to explain the same friggin' thing again and now I am done with you for now. Later.
And since you have been following Defense news from the 90's, maybe you remember the story about C17, right?

I too don’t have more to say than what I have already told you . And Im agreed that we can’t blindly support any expert even if he/ she is from any top developed country and gave his/ her opinion to his government. But, I was responding to that certain gentleman who wanted to compare J20 with Rafale (Rafale with stealth features itself), with just one argument that first J20 is in development and second report from the best arm industry, the US, for their similar 5th gen aircrafts isn’t coming very impressive. So, its foolish to compare a tested/ working aircraft, Rafale, with that which is in the ‘early stage’ of development, the J20, thats it

But I too repeat that the chances are at least 50% that PAK FA, J20, F35 will come in operation, even if it may take 2020 for F35 and 2022/25 for FAK FA/ FGFA & J20. But I repeat, it is also likely that these countries may make these 5th gen aircrafts in limited numbers only due to its limited capabilities other than just stealth technology, similar to F22 of US. lets see

and, we are just talking about the ‘possibilities’ only. as even the professionals working on F35 and J20 projects don’t know how they will be ended up after 8-10 years. so we gotto wait for at least 8 to 10 years to have clearer idea, thanks

 

[itaskol]

what will be the new name of rafale in india?
my suggestion is " garuda".
a supernatural eaglelike being that serves as Vishnu's mount, eat dragons every day.

 

[R-DB]

what will be the new name of rafale in india?
my suggestion is " garuda".
a supernatural eaglelike being that serves as Vishnu's mount, eat dragons every day.

you are correct