Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

Is it Gripen?

Its EF.. gripen is a single engine fighter.

 

[kali]

So Eurofighter is the best fighter for mmrca?

 

[angeldemon_007]

I also think Eurofighter is the best but it is still under development but this problem is faced by most of them.
Good thing with rafale is, we could negotiate on any level of tot but the problem is, i think its way too expensive. Its upgrades will be expensive too. Just look at our Mirage case.
I also think, since our force is interested in expensive aircrafts ie. typhoon and rafale, then we could also talk to US about F35 for MMRCA.

 

[KEETARP]

So Eurofighter is the best fighter for mmrca?

Question to be asked -------
Are we there looking for best fighter in the market , or the jet that matches the minimal air staff req with L1 price .

In comparison between two diff jets , Rafale and Eurofighter can never be L1

 

[GareebNawaz]

^^ i dont know which one is the best, but the super hornet is the most advanced in terms of avionics and technology. I seriously believe the typhoon is overrated. It is yet to prove its capabilities. I dont doubt the ability of the EF, but it is not great. Su-30MKI is even better. I bet j-10 is somewhat better.

 

[angeldemon_007]

I seriously believe the typhoon is overrated. It is yet to prove its capabilities.

Is typhoon used by RAF in AFg. or Irq. ??/

 

[sancho]

Did they change the engines within a month?

Anyway i do not believe the prices on the chart, but TWR is correct, i feel...

The chart is not only old, but like Spark said, filled with wrong infos!

Examples?

- Nearly all costs
- EF has a payload of 7t not only 5t like the chart says
- Rafale TWR 1.08, not 0.8, empty weight and payload 9.5t, G load 9+, SC at least according some Dassault Aviation sources
- F18SH has no GE414 EPE engine yet, that's why the AB thrust is wrong, payload is 8t, Mach 2 is also wrong
- F16 TWR, empty weight, payload, SC,
- Gripen Vixen 500 radar, empty weight, payload, G load,

 

[sancho]

Question to be asked -------
Are we there looking for best fighter in the market , or the jet that matches the minimal air staff req with L1 price .

In comparison between two diff jets , Rafale and Eurofighter can never be L1

That's the wrong question because there is no "best fighter", only the best suited fighter for the requirements of the forces, or the country and because that are always different, just like the capabilities of the fighters and the advantages in the deals, any competition is different!

So the question should be, which is the best suited fighter and which deal is the best suited deal for India?

Regarding L1:

Indian acquisition procedures, in fact, stipulate that the cheapest compliant aircraft, identifi ed as “L1,” should be selected for the force. The least expensive aircraft in this context, however, will be that defined by the criteria laid out in the Request for Proposals and does not refer simply to either an aircraft’s flyaway or acquisition costs. While such a winnowing process would be easy if all the contenders were perfectly commensurate, each airplane in the MMRCA race embodies a different bundle of capabilities. Comparing the costs of the different rivals will, therefore, be a difficult process and, if handled inappropriately, it could produce dangerously suboptimal results.
Given this fact, the Indian government will have to be sensitive not simply to the sticker price of the shortlisted aircraft, but to their true marginal costs—that is, to cost differences insofar as they relate to the true differentials in combat capability, assuming that all the other relevant variables, such as the technology transfer and off set packages, are equal. To the degree that they are not, these differences will also have to be factored into the
assessment of marginal costs. In other words, the final cost comparison of the various contending aircraft will be a far more complex matter than a simple price check.

Source: Carnegie Endowment report

Is typhoon used by RAF in AFg. or Irq. ??/

No Typhoon was fielded in a war situation yet, the only realistic mission were interception missions against Russian surveillance aircrafts, mainly in Kosovo like this:

And from time to time also this:

 

[sancho]

Between Refale & Eurofighter which is better in term of technology transfer to india?

between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?

All six aircraft which is latest avionics? In which aircraft they give us full TOT of radar & EW warfare?

If we choose the eurofighter, can they provide the engine technology?

First of all, please don't post all these 1 liners and simply ask in 1 normal post!

Regarding your questions, by the fact that nobody here has a clear inside view of the offers, the real specs, or performances of the fighters in the trials, it will be very difficult to answer them. That's why it should be clear that the following is only my personal opinion!

1. Difficult to say, the core techs of both fighters are developed alone, which means they can offer up to 100% ToT of them if they want, but which is unlikely. The advantage of Rafale here is, that India has only to negotiate about it with 1 country and their companies, while the EF was developed by a consortium of different companies from different countries. That means all countries have to agree on ToT according to their rules and laws, which makes it more difficult.
This problem is obvious also in other decisions about EF, like the upgrads, because either one country pays alone for specific upgrades like UK did with integrating litening pod, or some A2G weapons, or all countries have to agree on core upgrades like the T3 including AESA radar.
Rafale on the other hand needs only permission and funding of French gov and can be upgraded easily and that's why it offer a higher tech, or maturity level at the moment.

2. Again difficult to say, because there are only a few infos available on this. The all French spares and techs makes them costlier, but even from EF customers like Germany, or Austria there are always reports about very high maintenance and per hour cost.
They should be higher then the US fighters, as well as Gripen mainly because of one engine, but lower then Mig 35s.

3. The best radar imo will be the Captor - E, but it is also the radar that needs the most time for development and as it seems will not be ready in time.
Rafales SPECTRA EWS on the other hand is really high class, not only in defensive, but also in offensive roles. The only EWS that has shown passive launch of missile capabilities yet!

The question is how much ToT we would get of these techs, Rafale is often offered with full ToT of the radar + source codes, but I would prefer SPECTRA ToT, to use it later on 5. gen fighters like FGFA.
The US fighters will offer obviously high techs in radar and EWS too, but will not offer critical ToT and often tend to downgrade export systems.

Another way to get radar ToT is the AESA radar co-development for Tejas MK2 and most MMRCA competitiors are participating here as well, with the MMRCA radars as the base.

4. Yes, that was even offered during the Tejas MK2 engine competition, but after that deal was given to another contender, it's doubtful that we will be interested in it now. Especially when we get ToT of the French M88 engine now as well.

 

[GORKHALI]

MIRAGE M2K STILL ON SALE

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: France Offers To Sell Iraq Mirage Fighter Jets

France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage fighters to Iraq, which is already negotiating a deal for U.S. F-16s to protect its skies after American forces pull out at the end of this year, the French ambassador said.

France has proposed selling 18 Mirage fighter jets to Iraq. Above, a Mirage 2000 jet fighter takes off from Nancy-Ochey, France. (File photo / Agence France-Presse)

"France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage F1 retrofitted aircraft that can be delivered from late 2011 and immediately operational because many Iraqi pilots were trained in the past on this type of plane," Boris Boillon told Agence France-Presse on Jan. 27.


He said France was offering the multi-role planes for $1 billion (733 million euros).

Baghdad has been negotiating to buy 18 U.S.-made F-16s, and the cabinet on Jan. 26 authorized Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to negotiate the terms of the first payment on the contract, a statement said.

Boillon said that, because of the price tag, the Mirage offer would not affect the F-16 deal.

"This [Mirage] sale is in the context of a proposal on a comprehensive military air program that France has submitted to this country," Boillon said.

Iraq's government spokesman said that Baghdad welcomed any offer.

"Iraq needs to build up its Air Force and that needs tens of fighters to protect its sovereignty," Ali-al Dabbagh said.

"Any origin of high quality with good offer will be welcomed taking in consideration that we need to unify the source of arming if they fulfill Iraq's requirements," he said, without disclosing the cost of the F-16 deal.

The Iraqi government "has submitted a letter of request for 18 F-16s and packages composed of spare parts, support equipment, weapons, logistics support and training," said U.S. Army Capt. Dan Churchill, a U.S. military spokesman in Iraq.

"The delivery and cost of the aircraft will be dependent upon a finalized purchase, which has not yet happened."

In early September, U.S. Army Gen. Michael Barbero, then deputy commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, said the absence of a multi-role fighter limited Iraq's air capabilities.

"They will not have the capability to provide air sovereignty, to fully protect the skies over Iraq, because they will lack a multi-role fighter," he said.

Iraq's air force was destroyed during and after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

 

[rockstarIN]

The chart is not only old, but like Spark said, filled with wrong infos!

Examples?

- Nearly all costs
- EF has a payload of 7t not only 5t like the chart says
- Rafale TWR 1.08, not 0.8, empty weight and payload 9.5t, G load 9+, SC at least according some Dassault Aviation sources
- F18SH has no GE414 EPE engine yet, that's why the AB thrust is wrong, payload is 8t, Mach 2 is also wrong
- F16 TWR, empty weight, payload, SC,
- Gripen Vixen 500 radar, empty weight, payload, G load,

Rafale TWR 1.08 is fine.

If that is the case, why should we go for partnership with french firm for new Kaveri engine for AMCA?

Rafale engine thrust - 60 kn to 75 kn

Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn

If the above is the case, we can easily use the current Kaveri engines for AMCA, no need a partnership with French firm.

(For LCA Mk2, it is fine as the single engine needed 90-95 kn)

What you think?

 

[angeldemon_007]

Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn

The Kaveri Snecma engine which would be used in AMCA and later tejas have a thrust of 90Kn.

 

[Mani2020]

India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.

On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal

Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry

but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help

The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft

 

[kingdurgaking]

The question is how much ToT we would get of these techs, Rafale is often offered with full ToT of the radar + source codes, but I would prefer SPECTRA ToT, to use it later on 5. gen fighters like FGFA.

How do you compare SPECTRA with Mayawi?? ... There are reports which states that the latter is the best and will go into 5G craft of IAF

 

[rockstarIN]

India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.

On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal

Russia knows MMRCA will not go for their way, as you said its is managed by PAK FA

Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry

TOT and local production is offered by everyone, not just Sweden, Gripen will not fit into IAF as we are going for LCA Mk2, which is more or less equal.---problem solved------

but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help

Afganistan and MMRCA??? two different stuff, no US jets in IAF. Even US knows that they are not gonna win else there should be no strings at all. Ball is in their court.

The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft

The only confusion is is it EF or Rafale....

There Rafale is good coz it is good as EF (may be 20% difference in capacity) BUT France is not going for F-35, AMCA is powered by France co-Kaveri engine. etc. etc.

There is a huge chance that IAF go for Rafale and AMCA will be developed by India and France as france is not committed to F-35, afterall they need a 5th gen fighter. arent they? they hardly go for PAK FA, and no Chinese one. The only option left with co partner with INDIAN AMCA.