Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Always Neutral]

This is a reportage of Ajay Shukla, as usual it is one another example of poor reportage and hence nothing but an unsurprising stuff.


And How about porr quality of your reportage ajay shuklaji?

Dear Jeff,

I think you should check Col. A Shukla's (retd) credentials with your own before calling him or his views lame. While some of his points may not be to your agenda but dumb he is not.

Regards

 

[JEFF]

Dear Jeff,

I think you should check Col. A Shukla's (retd) credentials with your own before

I am well aware about his credentials since he is one among severl criticizers whose reportage often contains severl stark errors like above.

calling him or his views lame. While some of his points may not be to your agenda but dumb he is not.
Regards

Pls point me out which point you are positioning to my agenda?

 

[sohailbutt]

Guys i was googlin abut MRCA tender, i came across this:

"Features Mig-35:
> New uprated RD-33 engine with a smoke free and corossion resistant chamber and more importantly 3D all aspect 360 degree thrust vectoring

> A new fuel system that allows longer range and in-flight refuelling.

> Payload increased significantly

> New IRST

> Latest Russian RAM coatings have decreased the effective cross-section of the fighter by 300% to 400%.

> The Mig-35 offered to India features an open architecture avionics suite with a MIL-STD-1553B multiplex bus (a first - and this would facilitate integration with western components) and a new multichannel navigation system.

> Russia and Mig have agreed to incorporate an Israeli radar and French avionics components into the Mig-35.
Israel have offered India their latest EL/M-2052 AESA radar with 1500+ T/R modules and a ridiculously high tracking capability of 64 targets.

Infact Israel are aggressively marketing this radar in various sizes to India and even displayed it at Aero India-2005 ... its also noteworthy they also signed a deal with India to fit India's Sea Harrier's with the EL/M 2032 and Derby BVR missiles in addition to other avionic upgrades

Here's Alexei Fyodorov, the general director of MiG corporation speaking about it >>

Quote:

"We will offer our MiG-35 multirole fighters with thrust vectoring control along with transfer of technology for indigenous production in India" Director General and Chief Designer of Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) 'MiG' Alexei Fedorov said.

"It has incorporated all the features of MiG-29M/M2 fighters developed on the basis of MiG-29 frontline fighter and today we can offer top-of-the-line multirole combat aircraft with in-flight refuelling" Fedorov said.

According to MiG Deputy Chief Designer Andrei Karasyov MiG-35 is capable of delivering all present and future weapons, since it has universal open architecture.

We are willing to integrate any system, as the user wants it." MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov.

The Russians say they can offer the MiG-35 in a Brahmos-like package to India—transfer technology for manufacture within India, and jointly develop the aircraft further and sell it to third countries. "It is a double jump over the Sukhoi deal, so to speak," said a senior official in Rosoboronexport, Russia’s defence export agency. The Sukhoi-30MKI also has thrust vector technology, but is limited to one direction. The technology installed in MiG-35 would allow 360 degree manoeuvrability. And, though the Sukhoi-MKI was developed jointly, there is no provision for joint marketing in the deal.

http://www.the-week.com/25sep04/current ... ticle1.htm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_ ... 050004.htm
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The other 2, namely the Gripen and the Mirage 2000-5 are far behind and are not worthy of mention.
--
Since the F-16 is facing tough competition, what do you suppose are the systems and sub systems that the block 70 needs to have to stand a fighting chance ??

Here's what an indian defence page thinks >> ...Although details of the F-16C Block 70 upgrade are yet to be revealed one may well expect it to include –– Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar capable of interleaving air-to-air, air-to-ground and terrain following modes, providing high resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) ground imaging and capable of automatic terrain following; Infra-Red (IR) detection kit and a formidable Electronic Warfare (EW) suite. The “package” may include an impressive array of US air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry and the incorporation of “aerodynamic” aluminium Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) that “blend” nicely with the upper fuselage, which will ensure long-range and endurance with unaffected aerodynamic performance. .. link"

Source: F-16.net - F-16 block 70 offered to India ... specs ?

Guys this is alarming mig-35 with 360 thrust vectoring, capability to carry brahmos, an advanced israeli radar which can track 64 targets, smoke free engine, full TOT, i think Mig-35 will win MRCA!!!!!!

GUYS CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN ME WHY IS US OFFEREING SUPERHORNET, AND BLOCK 70 TO india, IS IT TO COUNTER CHINA N PAKISTAN IN THE FUTURE OR JUST IS IT, WITH ENOUGH MONEY U CAN BUY ANYTHIN????????

One thing i know for sure is that US always sells weapons when they have a political goal to be achieved, as they do with PAKISTAN!!!!!!

 

[Energon]

The Mig35 is undoubtedly a great platform. However the primary problem is that it's still untested and not in production unlike the rest of its competitors. Also, the Mig35 is likely to have a very high per unit cost price given that there aren't too many users lined up. If India did however acquire full licensing rights to this aircraft it may end up being a good deal. The advantages of doing business with the west however has many more advantages.

 

[ejaz007]

Defenseindustrydaily.com has posted latest update on the MRCA. Its a long report, however this is what seems to be the update:

"April 24/08: Boeing delivers a 7,000-page proposal offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Indian Air Force, and The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi will formally hand it over to Indian Ministry of Defense. The F/A-18IN includes Raytheon’s APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, and Boeing is also touting the claim that “the fighter won’t need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that.” Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.

Over the past 36 months, Boeing IDS has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Tata Industries, and Larson and Toubro. Boeing’s release announces that: “If the F/A-18IN Super Hornet is selected, these companies and others are expected to play a significant role as Boeing transfers some production and assembly to India.”

Feb 26/08: The Indian government has extended the date of submission for technical and commercial bids for the MMRCA program from March 3/08 to April 28/08, while the deadline for offset bids has been extended from May until August 2008. Defense News."

India’s MMRCA Fighter Competition

 

[ejaz007]

Global Giants Bid for Indian Fighter Deal
By PRATAP CHAKRAVARTY, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 28 Apr 12:03 EDT (08:03 GMT)

NEW DELHI - Global aviation giants on April 28 submitted bids to sell 126 warplanes to India - the world's richest fighter aircraft deal worth $12 billion.

Six aeronautical companies from Russia, the United States and Europe offered their proposals to the Indian defense ministry well before an official deadline ended, the companies said.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin said its proposals, which run over 10,000 pages, describe an upgraded version of the F-16 fighter jet.

"The F-16IN is a unique configuration of the F-16, designed to address the requirements specified in India's request for proposals," said Orville Prins, a Lockheed Martin vice president.

"Our proposal also represents a long-term partnership between the air forces of India and the United States and between Indian industry and the F-16 industry team," he added.

Seattle-based Boeing, which is offering F-18 Superhornets, said it submitted its 7,000-page bid on April 24.

"One of the concerns here in India is the cost of owning and maintaining combat fighters over their lifetime," said Vivek Lall, a vice president in Boeing's military wing.

"The Super Hornet offers a very attractive life-cycle-cost dynamic, since the fighter won't need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that," he said in statement.

The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), in its 7,000-page submission pushed the Typhoon Eurofighter, saying scores of air forces were flying the multi-role aircraft.

EADS suffered a setback in December when India scrapped a $600 million deal for 197 military helicopters from Eurocopter - an unit of the consortium.

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS' military wing said that the company was ready to meet Indian deadlines.

The Indian air force contract includes outright purchase of 18 war jets by 2012 with another 108 of the same planes to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more such jets.

Russian manufacturers of MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Sweden's Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, and French Dassault, which constructs the Rafale and Mirage, also handed over bids to the Indian authorities.

Dassault has promised to supply 40 Rafale jets on a fast-track basis as part of the deal, while Gripen is offering larger technology transfers.

The bids were scheduled to be opened later April 28 for technical evaluation.

Army commanders meanwhile began reviewing India's arms purchase laws which stipulate that foreign firms selling products worth $600 million or more must re-invest 50 percent of the amount to build local manufacturing capacity.

New Delhi introduced this clause into all its big defense deals in 2003 as a way of protecting itself from non-delivery and to boost the domestic arms industry.

"The commanders' conference which began today is discussing the merits and de-merits of the policy before it goes for a final revision in June," a ministry official said.

New Delhi called for the war jet bids in August last year as the air force's operational fighter fleet plunged to a low of 576 aircraft, from nearly 750 in early 2000.

Global Giants Bid for Indian Fighter Deal - Defense News

 

[sohailbutt]

"US company offers key radar technology to India
El Segundo (California) (PTI): Indian Air Force will get access to cutting-edge radar technology, as permitted by the US government, if it decides to buy Boeing F-18 Superhornets under its global tender for 126 combat aircraft, American space and airborne systems company Raytheon has said.

"We are willing to support Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar technology transfer up to the level the US government allows us," said Dave Goold from Raytheon's F-18 Business Development, Tactical Airbone Systems.

"The technology transfer, though likely to be limited, would meet the requirements of IAF. Our proposal will be compliant with the request for proposal (RFP) issued by IAF for the 126 combat aircraft," he said.

The powerful AESA radar lends an edge to the F-18 by increasing its air-to-air detection and tracking range, apart from enhancing its air to ground targeting capabilities. The cutting-edge AESA radar technology has been allowed by the US to be transferred only to Australia till now.

Raytheon has partnered with the defence wing of aerospace giant Boeing's F-18 multi-role ground fighter which is being pitched as an ideal solution to IAF's future requirements.

Earlier, Boeing Integrated Defence System (IDS) representative John Salas said the company has plan to sell anti-ship missile Harpoon and long-range precision missile to India. Both the systems are integrated with the F-18 fighters."

MONEY TALKS!!!!

 

[Energon]

^^^This should obviously come of no surprise. The Russians and the Europeans have already made offers to either co-develop or arrange ToT on AESA radars. The American companies have to match the offer or risk losing out to their competitors given that India is adamant about tech procurement.

India from what I understand has a good track record of not violating ToT and/or production license agreements, making it worthwhile for the manufacturers to be in business with India.

This is a really stiff competition. I was almost sure that the Eurofighter was out of the competition when they suddenly came back strong with the offer to induct India into the consortium. Boeing however seems to be hot on their trails, and given their success in obtaining the contract for the LCA project their outlook seems very good in the MRCA competition at the moment.

From a purely technological point of view, Rafale is still the best option; however this tender IMO has more to do with geopolitics than it does with simply hardware procurement. Either way, India will end up with a top of the line fighter.

 

[vish]

Ok… sorry if I’m being naïve… but the IAF initially wanted to go for the Mirage… and this being a $10Bn+ contract… why doesn’t the IAF establish an assembly line for the Mirage (upgraded with the latest avionics)… or is that the costs of such a move are too high… or may be the IAF has gotten over its love for Mirage… can anybody clear my doubts...

 

[ejaz007]

This is the latest on defenseindustrydaily.com. I have only copied and pasted the latest update.

May 5/08: More details concerning the Boeing/Raytheon Super Hornet offer appear in India’s press. According to Boeing’s F-18 programme manager for India Mike Rietz, Boeing’s offset program involves a 4-phase effort.

Phase 0 supplies 18 fully assembled Block II Super Hornets.
Phase 1 and 2 will deliver 54 aircraft as partial assemblies , and would begin within 54 months of the contract’s start date.
Phase 1 supplies as 1,800 parts and 300 tools for assembly by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. in India.
Phase 2 supplies HAL with 17,000 parts and over 1,000 tools for assembly.
The final 54 aircraft of Phase 3 would have the entire range of the airframe’s 30,000 parts built in India, with the last aircraft delivered by 2020.

With respect to radar technology transfer, Raytheon’s Dave Goold states the obvious when he says that “Our response has been fully compliant with the IAF request for proposal (RFP). However, the extent of technology transfer would be dependent on the permission we receive from the US government…. The issue is under discussion.” If technology transfer is limited by the government, this could result in AN/APG-79 radars being supported in India but manufactured entirely in the USA. The question is whether that would disqualify the Boeing bid outright or force a shift back to earlier APG-73 radars. The extent of radar technology transfer is reportedly set at 60% in India’s RFP.

India’s MMRCA Fighter Competition

Any ways by the year 2020 even the latest super hornet won't be the latest.
Regards,

 

[PakSniper]

OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break

 

[Janbaz]

OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break

Maybe after you get through the summer barbecues, a descion will be made!

 

[vish]

OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break

Welcome to the Indian Procurement Methodology... "we might get it someday"...

 

[nitesh]

Check this news
The Hindu : International / India & World : EADS invites India to join Eurofighter upgrade

EADS invites India to join Eurofighter upgrade

Sandeep Dikshit
European aviation giant sweetens offer for IAF mega tender
MUNICH: Bidding for the mega tender for 126 fighter aircraft, the European aviation giant EADS has sweetened its offer by inviting India to become the fifth country and the first outside Europe to join the ongoing upgrade of Eurofighter aircraft.

EADS is also prepared to involve India in its supersonic jet trainer development programme as well as other futuristic projects such as unmanned aerial and undersea vehicles.

“India would be interested to jump into these. This is one topic that would be discussed with respect to offsets,” said EADS officials.

Offsets are a crucial component of the over $ 10 billion mega tender floated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the six competitors are conjuring new avenues to ensure that 50 per cent of the contract value is generated within India.

The normal offset value is 30 per cent for big contracts but Defence Minister A.K. Antony insisted that the percentage be hiked to 50 so that the Indian aviation industry becomes more sophisticated and advanced.

“We are in the build-up for phase II of the Eurofighter programme. It will include new equipment and continue to be dynamic. It might be interesting for Indian companies to jump in at phase II and III,” senior EADS official Christian Albert told visiting newspersons at the company’s new Manching plant on the outskirts of Munich.

EADS cited the example of Spain which has benefited by becoming the fourth country to join the Eurofighter development project.

In a production process that is unique in the world, the central fuselage and the right wing is made in Germany, the left wing in Spain and other vital components sourced from the U.K. and Italy.

This process would make it easy for the company to seamlessly source the assembly line to India, something other countries would find it difficult to emulate, suggest company officials.

When Spain joined the programme, it only had the design capability for propeller and jet aircraft. It was also “very poor” in engine manufacturing. After entering the Eurofighter programme, Spain has boosted its aviation capability considerably and 90 per cent of the money is spent in the country itself. The skill of its workers and engineers has also increased.

“This encourages us to invite you,” observes Dr. Albert.

Later, in the basement of a test facility with Eurofighters roaring overhead, test pilot Heinz Spolgen pointed out how the plane’s cockpit was the best in business.

With 80 per cent of the single pilot’s work devoted to weapons control, Wing Commander Spolgen points out that it is vital for the pilot to be comfortable with the plane’s flying characteristics.

“The working place is very good because it is designed for the pilots by the pilots. The cockpit’s controls have been designed after taking inputs from pilots who have flown a variety of American, European and even Soviet-era planes. Therefore the cockpit is more advanced and user-friendly,” he explains.

 

[BATMAN]

^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?