Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Bang Galore]

We will get MORE RAFALES ; How we get it is just a matter of detail

36 is just peanuts ; we need more

Unfortunately they cost quite a bit more than peanuts......

The orignal RFP route though an IDEAL thing to do with offsets and TOT
but was not commercially viable

The discussions went on into several previously uncharted territories

The whole thing became a complex WEB of offsets ; TOT ; guarentees ;
workmanship and technical abilities of HAL
labour costs ; supervision ; management control ; QC /QA of HAL

The main reason for the collapse is clear. It is none of the things you mentioned, while all of them had a secondary factor to play, the main one was quite simply the prohibitive cost of the plane itself. Even without all the tot & other issues, the purchase of the aircraft in a fly away condition directly from the French is still quite expensive. The truth is something that has been known for quite a while & I have hammered about it here for the last year atleast. - there is simply no money for 126 of these aircrafts. Which is pretty much what Manohar Parrikar said. It has a debilitating effect on the rest of the essential purchases we require to do, if we buy this aircraft in the numbers originally sought. Anyone who thinks that dealing with the French is a cake walk should seriously check their noggins for brain activity. Whether it is the submarines, the M2k upgradation, the nuclear plant deal or the Rafale buy, the french are anything but pleasant to do business with. This is just another instance in a series of such instances. We may have been caught in a bind here and may end up buying some more aircraft but you can certain that we are getting ripped off big time any which way.

 

[Donatello]

Unfortunately they cost quite a bit more than peanuts......






The main reason for the collapse is clear. It is none of the things you mentioned, while all of them had a secondary factor to play, the main one was quite simply the prohibitive cost of the plane itself. Even without all the tot & other issues, the purchase of the aircraft in a fly away condition directly from the French is still quite expensive. The truth is something that has been known for quite a while & I have hammered about it here for the last year atleast. - there is simply no money for 126 of these aircrafts. Which is pretty much what Manohar Parrikar said. It has a debilitating effect on the rest of the essential purchases we require to do, if we buy this aircraft in the numbers originally sought. Anyone who thinks that dealing with the French is a cake walk should seriously check their noggins for brain activity. Whether it is the submarines, the M2k upgradation, the nuclear plant deal or the Rafale buy, the french are anything but pleasant to do business with. This is just another instance in a series of such instances. We may have been caught in a bind here and may end up buying some more aircraft but you can certain that we are getting ripped off big time any which way.

Dealing with French is easy. Pakistan never had any of these issues. India has this strange fetish with the term 'ToT' without realizing what it actually means. I've always said it, and will say again, no western company will ever transfer their knowledge to any nation just because they are selling their products. That'll be like shooting oneself in the foot and face. They can let you do the assembling etc but India was expecting more, and that wasn't going to happen.
Rafale is a product made by Dassault, but it contains systems from other vendors. Just because India is dealing with Dassault, that doesn't mean that those vendors for subsystems will give up their know how as well.
Two major sub systems that are on Rafale but Dassault having no say in, are the Engines by SNECMA and the Radar/FSO sensors by Thales.
Dassault can transfer all they want to India, but since Dassault does not have any say in Thales or SNECMA, why should these firms give up their knowledge....just because India is purchasing the a product that contains their products? Doesn't make any sense.
If India wants real ToT, it needs to do joint ventures with each company involved, and put up a capital in proportion to the work expected.

This immediate purchase of 36 aircraft is a face saving measure, assure France that we are committed, but we don't know how. Since Modi's trip was all hyped up, it was necessary to offer something......the main issue of the original RFP/Tender is still far from resolved.

 

[Bang Galore]

Dealing with French is easy. Pakistan never had any of these issues. India has this strange fetish with the term 'ToT' without realizing what it actually means. I've always said it, and will say again, no western company will ever transfer their knowledge to any nation just because they are selling their products. That'll be like shooting oneself in the foot and face. They can let you do the assembling etc but India was expecting more, and that wasn't going to happen.
Rafale is a product made by Dassault, but it contains systems from other vendors. Just because India is dealing with Dassault, that doesn't mean that those vendors for subsystems will give up their know how as well.
Two major sub systems that are on Rafale but Dassault having no say in, are the Engines by SNECMA and the Radar/FSO sensors by Thales.
Dassault can transfer all they want to India, but since Dassault does not have any say in Thales or SNECMA, why should these firms give up their knowledge....just because India is purchasing the a product that contains their products? Doesn't make any sense.
If India wants real ToT, it needs to do joint ventures with each company involved, and put up a capital in proportion to the work expected.

That is not the GoI's problem, it's Dassault's. Nobody forced them at gunpoint to bid, you can't expect to change the terms & conditions of the tender after you have been shortlisted. Your argument would hold good if they didn't bid as the French refused to with Pakistan recently. Once you participate, you can't then use these excuses. It's Dassault business to convince its partners about the expectation in the tender, no one is insisting that they bid.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Bang Galore

We have no option but to bite the bullet

Money has to be arranged somehow ; 36 Rafales is just USELESS
because you have to create a lot of infrastructure and spend money on other related activities

The reason we need Rafale is simple J 20 and SU 35

Our SU 30 MKI alone cannot take them on

FGFA is at least a DECADE away

Rafale was expensive to start with BUT our MMRCA PROCEDURE
made the whole deal more expensive

It is our mistake as pointed out by the Defence Minister

@Bang Galore watch this

here the Former chief ACM Tipnis is clearly saying we will buy more

 

[tsinga]

@Bang Galore

We have no option but to bite the bullet

Money has to be arranged somehow ; 36 Rafales is just USELESS
because you have to create a lot of infrastructure and spend money on other related activities

The reason we need Rafale is simple J 20 and SU 35

Our SU 30 MKI alone cannot take them on

FGFA is at least a DECADE away

Rafale was expensive to start with BUT our MMRCA PROCEDURE
made the whole deal more expensive

It is our mistake as pointed out by the Defence Minister

Ordering an additional 18 Rafales is a given.

That means in total we will have 54 Rafales i.e. 3 squadrons, against the 6 squadrons wanted under MRCA.

I believe 3 squadrons of Rafale along with LCA are more than enough to tide over till the FGFA starts entering service.

 

[cerberus]

While the two squadrons of 36 Rafale jets to be procured under direct purchase from France would meet the critical operational requirements of the Air Force, the need for additional aircraft would be addressed through the ‘Make in India’ process, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said.

This gives some clarity on the government’s plans for fighter aircraft procurement after the surprise announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to buy 36 Rafale jets from France under direct purchase through a government-to-government deal.

“I think two squadrons at least if you get in fly-away condition, meantime you can work on ‘Make in India’ process. While Air Force gets what it requires, the ‘Make in India’ process also gets enough time to work on,” Mr. Parrikar told NDTV on Tuesday.

Stating that the Rafale deal shouldn’t have gone through a global tender in the first place, Mr. Parrikar said “the previous UPA government did not think it through.”

He also pointed that this was an in-principle decision and the details would be worked out by the two governments and claimed that the deal for direct purchase was better than the original Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

Under the MMRCA deal, India was negotiating the purchase of 126 aircraft for over $20 billion of which 18 would come in fly-away condition while the remaining were to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

However, Mr. Parrikar did not elaborate on how the ‘Make in India’ process would unfold. Officials said there are two ways to go about. One is accelerating the development of Light Combat Aircraft MK II and buying additional Sukhois from Russia while the other option would be to get Dassault to set up a joint manufacturing facility in India in partnership with a private sector firm to build additional Rafales.

More jets through ‘Make in India’ process: Parrikar - The Hindu

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Ordering an additional 18 Rafales is a given.

That means in total we will have 54 Rafales i.e. 3 squadrons, against the 6 squadrons wanted under MRCA.

I believe 3 squadrons of Rafale along with LCA are more than enough to tide over till the FGFA starts entering service.

We need at least 80

People believe that we have to pay everything at once

The whole payment will happen over a decade

 

[cerberus]

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign ..

Read more at:
Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times

 

[GURU DUTT]

so its done now 36 on fast track G TO G terms and 126 more under make in india as per rules set by Dassult not a bad deal

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Bang Galore

There are THREE considerations in the whole deal

1 National Security

2 Price

3 TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

Point 1 and point 2 are the most crucial

Obviously we cannot may more than 20 billion

SO we will have to compromise on POINT 3 ie
TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

We can spend at least 20 Billion on this deal

The question is how many Rafales can we get in 20 Billion

 

[Donatello]

That is not the GoI's problem, it's Dassault's. Nobody forced them at gunpoint to bid, you can't expect to change the terms & conditions of the tender after you have been shortlisted. Your argument would hold good if they didn't bid as the French refused to with Pakistan recently. Once you participate, you can't then use these excuses. It's Dassault business to convince its partners about the expectation in the tender, no one is insisting that they bid.

By that logic, all western options are out. Only Russians will give you the JVs and ToT without additional expense (<----or is it?)

 

[Stephen Cohen]

By that logic, all western options are out. Only Russians will give you the JVs and ToT without additional expense (<----or is it?)

Yes that is right But we dont want more Russian planes
AT THIS stage

More SU 30 mki and SU 35 is the LAST option
That will happen if we dont get ANY Rafale at all

The NEXT Russian plane we will buy is FGFA

 

[rockstarIN]

@Bang Galore

There are THREE considerations in the whole deal

1 National Security

2 Price

3 TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

Point 1 and point 2 are the most crucial

Obviously we cannot may more than 20 billion

SO we will have to compromise on POINT 3 ie
TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

We can spend at least 20 Billion on this deal

The question is how many Rafales can we get in 20 Billion

FGFA will not happen as there are reports that India pulling out and Russia will only make one sqn.

Follow up orders will be there post 2020, we need to start AMCA right now or as a JV with other partners.

 

[cerberus]

so its done now 36 on fast track G TO G terms and 126 more under make in india as per rules set by Dassult not a bad deal

My guess is Reliance they were seeking it for very long.it will definitely create a buzz in political lines

 

[Stephen Cohen]

FGFA will not happen as there are reports that India pulling out and Russia will only make one sqn.

Follow up orders will be there post 2020, we need to start AMCA right now or as a JV with other partners.

FGFA will happen ; it is only delayed

Russian economic woes are all temporary

Stop dreaming about AMCA ; First let us make LCA MK 2