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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Sir mirage upgrade did not include engine upgrade.

SNERMA M53 turbofans are being replaced by the M53-P2 ............

I might be wrong here but you are trying to wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.
Got your Advice, but the message in the form of hint was for my Indian brothers only for their own personal consumption.
 
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2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.
Never heard anything about an improved M53-P2 ! Maybe you opt for new engine, but not improved. It's what I know and I think.

SNERMA M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the M53-P3 ............
M53 P3 don't exist. Sorry !
 
Never heard anything about an improved M53-P2 ! Maybe you opt for new engine, but not improved. It's what I know and I think.


M53 P3 don't exist. Sorry !

Thanks for correcting me. Its M53 Engine upgraded to M53 P2 engine.
 
Sir don't give wrong information. Iaf's mirage upgradation program does not include engine upgrade

Dear Valluvan, the upgradation of the Indian Mirrage 2000 H was to the Mirrage 2005 MK2 Standard, and the upgrades includes the M53 P2 engine also. If only the avionics upgrades and the Digital glass cockpit was needed for the upgrades, then India would have easily choosen the Israeli solution. -- Aka Glass cockpits with Indian HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer plus El/M-2032/52 MMR Retrofing plus Python-5 and Derby ER, and Elta Jammers. However India choose, the french one. And they got .............

Indian+Air+Force+%2528IAF%2529+has+sent+2+of+its+Dassault+Mirage+2000H+Vajra+fighter+jets+to+France+for+upgrading+them+to+the+Mirage+2000-5+Mark+2+RDY-3+radar.jpg


  • A modular avionics concept.
  • New larger lateral displays.
  • New back-seat colour display repeater.
  • Helmet-mounted sight.
  • Automatic terrain-following system based on a digital terrain file.
  • Digital map on a head-down display.
  • An aircraft-to-missile datalink with an increased number of channels.
  • A discrete multimode datalink system.
  • The new Damocles laser designation pod featuring:
    3-5µm infrared imagery,
    increased laser range.
  • A Flir imager integrated into the Damocles pylon.
  • On-board oxygen generation system.
  • Combined air-to-air and air-to-ground configurations.
  • New multi-channel recording system.
  • Increased maximum take off weight (17.5 t).
  • Very long range stand-off air-to-ground missiles.
  • The introduction of the IR Mica missile.

To understand the whole situation, kindly check, that the original plane of the IAF was the 50 off the shelf Mirrage 2000 with 126 build under license build by HAL, however due to economical constrained the plan was stuck. IAF Choice was long fixed to the french Bird which was Mirrage 2000 and now Rafale. IAF already knows the comonality between the Mirrage 2000 and Rafale and that's why Rafale was the choice check out this.

435676d784dad5c7cbdb1fe68188e64ao.jpg


Check out this news

<quote>


New Delhi. The Indian Government formally signed a Rs 10,900 crore ($ 2.4 billion, or Euro 1.73 bn appox) deal with the French Dassault and Thales to upgrade the 51 Mirage 2000 combat jets with the Indian Air Force (IAF).


Under the agreement finalized by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and IAF, most of the combat systems like radars and Electronic Warfare (EW) suites would be upgraded to Mirage 2005-plus standards.

There would also be 30 per cent offset, which would boost expertise and production at companies like the state-run HAL and the private sector Samtel, which makes electronic displays and also controls manufacture of a critical component in the helmet mounted cueing system used by pilots of aircraft like the US Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornet.

The parameters for the upgrades have been specified by the IAF’s Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs), and the upgrade would extend the operational life of the aircraft by an estimated 25 years.

The upgraded Mirages would have all-weather 24 x 7 precision fire power capability, a new glass cockpit, terrain mapping navigation, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) electronics, and Within and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability to destroy hostile targets.

A press statement issued by Dassault and Thales from Paris described the contract, signed July 29, as commercial, saying: “Based on the integration of latest generation equipment and systems, the upgrade will further enhance the technical-operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000. The extensive involvement of the Indian industry within the programme will consolidate existing ties with the French aerospace industry and will reinforce long-term cooperation based on cutting edge technologies and the sharing of technical know-how and expertise.”

The Mirages were acquired beginning mid-1985, and this writer was at hand to meet the pilots of the first lot of six aircraft during a stopover in the Qatari capital of Doha. Their flight was then commanded by Wg Cdr (later Air Marshal) P S Ahluwalia.

The aircraft have been maintained in India under French assistance and in their 25-year life, only a couple of accidents have been reported. By all standards, the aircraft has had a tremendous safety record compared to others in the IAF inventory.

It may be noted that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared the deal just a few days ago, but without the weapons package which is being negotiated separately. The cost of the new precision fire power weapons, to be sourced mostly from Thales and the European MBDA, is reported to be around $ 600 million.

Weapons in any case are separate, and accordingly, the cost of upgrading an aircraft would be around $ 50 million, inclusive of the tools and expertise and 30 per cent offset. As the airframe has substantial life left, the cost of the upgrade would be cheaper by about about 20 to 25 per cent compared to the new Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is set to acquire in large numbers (126 to 189).

But of course, the MRCA would be much more advanced, and is supposed to be equipped with some weapons exclusively in production and control of the US companies and government. Either of the MRCA winner would have to source these systems from them.

Under the Mirage deal, Thales, which manufactures onboard combat and EW systems, would get nearly $ 1.8 billion and the rest would be shared by aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which built and sold the Mirages, and HAL. The latter’s component is around Rs 1008 crores ($ 230 million, or Euro 160 million). The remaining would go to Dassault.

Dassault also has a controlling stake in Thales, acquired a couple of years ago. Its Rafale is one of the two finalists in the MMRCA competition, the other being the European Eurofighter Typhoon.

Notably, HAL would use the amount to import equipment and technical expertise from Thales to build potentially useful capability in upgrading the remaining 47 aircraft in India. It is also likely to spend some more on setting up the facilities.

The process to upgrade the aircraft is rather long, as according to Thales sources, it is like building a new aircraft from scratch except the airframe. New systems would mean literally every thing new except the body; new wiring, a new centre of gravity and everything to be fixed around that.

According to authoritative sources, it would take some four years to build the first lot of the first four aircraft, and the upgrade facilities in India. After that, HAL would upgrade 10 or 11 aircraft per year, ending the programme by about 2020.

But assures Thales: Each aircraft would be like a new fighter, with contemporary combat suites and missiles, including possibly the “most advanced Meteor missile if India wants it.” An active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), it is still under development but is on offer on both the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Under the contract, initially two aircraft would be sent to France to be checked and upgraded there by Dassault and Thales under Indian supervision. Then, two more aircraft would be similarly upgraded at HAL by French engineers and technicians in India as part of the learning curve for Indian engineers.

After that, the equipment supplied by Thales would be fitted on the aircraft in India at HAL’s factory in Bangalore.


© India Strategic

</quote>

Hope this will clear all doubts, because the engine have their own TSL (Technical Service Life) and by no standard the old engine, can serve for 2 decade more.
 
Dear Valluvan, the upgradation of the Indian Mirrage 2000 H was to the Mirrage 2005 MK2 Standard, and the upgrades includes the M53 P2 engine also. If only the avionics upgrades and the Digital glass cockpit was needed for the upgrades, then India would have easily choosen the Israeli solution. -- Aka Glass cockpits with Indian HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer plus El/M-2032/52 MMR Retrofing plus Python-5 and Derby ER, and Elta Jammers. However India choose, the french one. And they got .............

Indian+Air+Force+%2528IAF%2529+has+sent+2+of+its+Dassault+Mirage+2000H+Vajra+fighter+jets+to+France+for+upgrading+them+to+the+Mirage+2000-5+Mark+2+RDY-3+radar.jpg


  • A modular avionics concept.
  • New larger lateral displays.
  • New back-seat colour display repeater.
  • Helmet-mounted sight.
  • Automatic terrain-following system based on a digital terrain file.
  • Digital map on a head-down display.
  • An aircraft-to-missile datalink with an increased number of channels.
  • A discrete multimode datalink system.
  • The new Damocles laser designation pod featuring:
    3-5µm infrared imagery,
    increased laser range.
  • A Flir imager integrated into the Damocles pylon.
  • On-board oxygen generation system.
  • Combined air-to-air and air-to-ground configurations.
  • New multi-channel recording system.
  • Increased maximum take off weight (17.5 t).
  • Very long range stand-off air-to-ground missiles.
  • The introduction of the IR Mica missile.
To understand the whole situation, kindly check, that the original plane of the IAF was the 50 off the shelf Mirrage 2000 with 126 build under license build by HAL, however due to economical constrained the plan was stuck. IAF Choice was long fixed to the french Bird which was Mirrage 2000 and now Rafale. IAF already knows the comonality between the Mirrage 2000 and Rafale and that's why Rafale was the choice check out this.

435676d784dad5c7cbdb1fe68188e64ao.jpg


Check out this news

<quote>


New Delhi. The Indian Government formally signed a Rs 10,900 crore ($ 2.4 billion, or Euro 1.73 bn appox) deal with the French Dassault and Thales to upgrade the 51 Mirage 2000 combat jets with the Indian Air Force (IAF).


Under the agreement finalized by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and IAF, most of the combat systems like radars and Electronic Warfare (EW) suites would be upgraded to Mirage 2005-plus standards.

There would also be 30 per cent offset, which would boost expertise and production at companies like the state-run HAL and the private sector Samtel, which makes electronic displays and also controls manufacture of a critical component in the helmet mounted cueing system used by pilots of aircraft like the US Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornet.

The parameters for the upgrades have been specified by the IAF’s Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs), and the upgrade would extend the operational life of the aircraft by an estimated 25 years.

The upgraded Mirages would have all-weather 24 x 7 precision fire power capability, a new glass cockpit, terrain mapping navigation, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) electronics, and Within and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability to destroy hostile targets.

A press statement issued by Dassault and Thales from Paris described the contract, signed July 29, as commercial, saying: “Based on the integration of latest generation equipment and systems, the upgrade will further enhance the technical-operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000. The extensive involvement of the Indian industry within the programme will consolidate existing ties with the French aerospace industry and will reinforce long-term cooperation based on cutting edge technologies and the sharing of technical know-how and expertise.”

The Mirages were acquired beginning mid-1985, and this writer was at hand to meet the pilots of the first lot of six aircraft during a stopover in the Qatari capital of Doha. Their flight was then commanded by Wg Cdr (later Air Marshal) P S Ahluwalia.

The aircraft have been maintained in India under French assistance and in their 25-year life, only a couple of accidents have been reported. By all standards, the aircraft has had a tremendous safety record compared to others in the IAF inventory.

It may be noted that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared the deal just a few days ago, but without the weapons package which is being negotiated separately. The cost of the new precision fire power weapons, to be sourced mostly from Thales and the European MBDA, is reported to be around $ 600 million.

Weapons in any case are separate, and accordingly, the cost of upgrading an aircraft would be around $ 50 million, inclusive of the tools and expertise and 30 per cent offset. As the airframe has substantial life left, the cost of the upgrade would be cheaper by about about 20 to 25 per cent compared to the new Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is set to acquire in large numbers (126 to 189).

But of course, the MRCA would be much more advanced, and is supposed to be equipped with some weapons exclusively in production and control of the US companies and government. Either of the MRCA winner would have to source these systems from them.

Under the Mirage deal, Thales, which manufactures onboard combat and EW systems, would get nearly $ 1.8 billion and the rest would be shared by aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which built and sold the Mirages, and HAL. The latter’s component is around Rs 1008 crores ($ 230 million, or Euro 160 million). The remaining would go to Dassault.

Dassault also has a controlling stake in Thales, acquired a couple of years ago. Its Rafale is one of the two finalists in the MMRCA competition, the other being the European Eurofighter Typhoon.

Notably, HAL would use the amount to import equipment and technical expertise from Thales to build potentially useful capability in upgrading the remaining 47 aircraft in India. It is also likely to spend some more on setting up the facilities.

The process to upgrade the aircraft is rather long, as according to Thales sources, it is like building a new aircraft from scratch except the airframe. New systems would mean literally every thing new except the body; new wiring, a new centre of gravity and everything to be fixed around that.

According to authoritative sources, it would take some four years to build the first lot of the first four aircraft, and the upgrade facilities in India. After that, HAL would upgrade 10 or 11 aircraft per year, ending the programme by about 2020.

But assures Thales: Each aircraft would be like a new fighter, with contemporary combat suites and missiles, including possibly the “most advanced Meteor missile if India wants it.” An active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), it is still under development but is on offer on both the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Under the contract, initially two aircraft would be sent to France to be checked and upgraded there by Dassault and Thales under Indian supervision. Then, two more aircraft would be similarly upgraded at HAL by French engineers and technicians in India as part of the learning curve for Indian engineers.

After that, the equipment supplied by Thales would be fitted on the aircraft in India at HAL’s factory in Bangalore.


© India Strategic

</quote>

Hope this will clear all doubts, because the engine have their own TSL (Technical Service Life) and by no standard the old engine, can serve for 2 decade more.
I think indian Mirage 2000 was already filled with M53P2. so maybe they will be refurbished so as to increase life....
 
I think indian Mirage 2000 was already filled with M53P2. so maybe they will be refurbished so as to increase life....

Indian Mirage 2000 had both M53 and M53P2, and now upgrade plans includes all M53 P-2. PS two Upgraded planes arived in India in 2015, and rest will be done by HAL in India.
 
While the upgrade does not involve fitting a new engine, it includes extensive avionics upgrades. Thales is providing a new radar, mission computer and electronic warfare suite, said the French vendors in a statement today. In place of the old analogue instruments in the cockpit, the pilots will now have an "all-glass cockpit", with video displays of flight parameters and weapons aiming and operation. They will also have helmet-mounted sights, which allow pilots to aim weapons at targets merely by looking at them.

Valluvan allow me some time time, so that I can search, the link you wanted.
 
Wo

So you r saying we wil have to pay only $10 billion for next 90 jets . Delusions of highest order facepalm

Facepalm urself, I took the time out to explain u. If u wanna act like a idiot then I cannot help u. You have some serious comprehensive delinquencies.
 
You r only acting like a stupid, Qatar is paying $7.02 billion for 24 jets . I asked simple question .how we will be able to pay for 126 jets. Do you really believe french wil sell 90 jets for $10 billion ?
listen Kid you are wasting everyone's time. All these questions have been answered in this thread go back 70 pages and start reading.
 
You r only acting like a stupid, Qatar is paying $7.02 billion for 24 jets . I asked simple question .how we will be able to pay for 126 jets. Do you really believe french wil sell 90 jets for $10 billion ?


Where in the world are you getting 90 jets for 10 billion?
 
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