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Dancing in the Streets of Pakistan

Yes.. all the youth india is under drugs are getting raped and are getting abortions..!!!:no: not one is left.. poor india.. :lol:

Well brother.. see freedom have to be used responsibiliy and that education ahve to be given by the parents to the child.. when they fail in that then such incidents happen....

For that you cannot take away the basic right of a women to live freely in her own terms.. you cannot lock her from the society and restrain her from doing something..if she wants to dance let her dance.. if she wants to wear something which she likes let her... those who want to watch and those who don't get the hell out.. Thats wot called tolerance.. i do not know whether these religious mullahs know that fact...

you see that was an old post. now i think women can do whatever they want..... let god deal with them:victory:
 
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you see that was an old post. now i think women can do whatever they want..... let god deal with them:victory:

Thanks God zagahaga!!
:smitten:

May Allah give you everything!

It is never too late.

I hope you show more tolerance.

Now we should say sorry to Sparklingview (thread opener) for going off topic!
 
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Sir, what you're posting is absolute rubbish and I totally disagree with it. Sounds like you're reading an imperialist orientalist pamphlet printed in the 18th century on the Moghuls.

Moghuls united the whole sub-continent, further established trade routes, invested in science and technology, economy and trade of the Sub-Continent to such that it accounted for approx 30% of the world trade, compared to less than 5% today. Heck...they were Monarchs and Kings, customs and traditions and rawayat were entirely different and you cannot judge them using political tools of today. They became stagnant and incompentent and therefore lost to British, thats part of cycle of history, rise and fall of empires. It would be highly dishonest and inappropriate to judge them, they were far better muslims than what we are today. God knows. Moghuls amongst others should be part of our curriculum however they should not be taken out.

I knew that the reply would contain at least some sort of reference to me getting these opinions from colonial books but frankly this is my opinion based on a lot of study.

Moving on, would you care to elaborate what great wonders in science and technology did the Mughals achieve? I'm guessing Galileo, Fourier and Newton didn't work in Fatehpur Sikri.

Architecture and Civil Engineering is their sole legacy and they didn't break much ground rather they beautified it. The aesthetics of their structures, I never doubted; but is there a point to building a tomb for your dead deer when you never opened a center of education and/or learning for the public.

As for trade, let me elaborate the point using the example of this region's biggest export back then, cotton:-

By the late eighteenth century, India was still the biggest cotton exporter in the world. Under slave labor, US cotton flourished but it was when Eli Whitney came up with Cotton Gin that they were able to move the plantations away from the coasts as well and within three decades US cotton was ruling the world. There was hardly a 15% gain in cotton production in India during an entire period of 60 years and production remained stagnant. While we can contend that the rise of US cotton it was because of slave labor and protection from labor market risk (and agricultural subsidies today), the fact of the matter is that innovation had died in this area long ago. Tradition was so entrenched that anybody trying to create something new might as well be signing his own financial death. There was no reward for taking an initiative. The Industrial Revolution is based almost exclusively on innovation and entrepreneurship (not to neglect colonial exploitation but there won't have been any big army of rubber slaves in Congo if Dunlop hadn't come up with the inflatable tire --> hence innovation sparked revolution which required exploitation). As for trade value, at one time in history Belgian Congo exported more than half of the world's rubber and African countries exported so much Ivory that the supply crossed the demand. The Europeans came and changed trade patterns according to their needs like they did in all colonies. They came for the raw materials and they got them from these areas. Direct trade with Britian grew while local trade routes were destroyed. The way millions of people paved way for only a handful of Britishers to rule over them is shameful. Africans were very far behind our civilization when colonials came. They weren't building Taj Mahals or Fatehpur Sikris or any other big buildings. If the Mughals had been anything more than drunken money wasting monarchs, they would have invested in defense and education. An India that was far ahead of other countries that were colonized was won over by the British.

Mughals didn't just lose because they became incompetent. Did the British beat them using their own army? Or was it a local one? You chose not to reply to my point about Britishers propagating the idea of the "martial race" and using it to build up their armies of whom they perceived to be less intelligent and easily purchasable people.They got soldiers from the plains of Punjab and across Eastern India. They beat the local rulers using locals. The "Khan Bahadur"s and the civil/military oligarchy which was rewarded by the eve important land grants saluted the Union Jack on August 13, 1947 and the Green and White on August 14, 1947. Nothing changed, the servants of the colonials became our masters. Colonial hangups in the form of nonadoption of local languages as primary forms of communication to keep the masses at bay, uninformed and exercising control by controlling information is visible to this day. Language is just a tool of communication, but English was used solely to control masses that were illiterate.

You're tlaking about their influence on textbooks, Heck....the Queen's face is still printed on the pound and canadian/australian dollars, and also in the books and thier propaganda machine never stops praising them in curriculum, yet no one raises questions and points fingers over it? Wonder why?

Because these things are civilizational values that are propagated by the state authorities and continued to next generations.

I was not talking about influence on text books rather their portrayals. Akbar is solely demonized because he was the liberal one and Din e Ilahi doesn't corroborate with the idea of the "Muslim Ruler". Aurangzeb is glorified far beyond what he was. Tell somebody that the story of the cap stitcher is just a myth, and the answer you'll get is that Aurangzeb was demonized by the British for he was a religious man and the British wanted to destroy Islam. Mahmud of Ghazni is portrayed as a liberator of the poor and the list goes on. Cooked up stories define the common narrative passed down. Naseem Hijazi fiction novels add to the textbook problem.

Queen on the notes isn't the same topic. Also, as I said earlier comparison with European and/or any other history is unnecessary and pointless. There is no such thing as comparative morality or comparative ethics. Barbarians should be portrayed as barbarians not as liberators. Tyrants and dictators better be demonized. Mughlas better be told in a breath of shame rather than glorification for the state of affairs of the common man inside the Mughal Empire throughout their rule was abysmal.
 
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That is exactly the premise of my argument. We aren't doing anything to prepare for our future, heck we aren't even doing anything for ourselves because we're morally and cuturally lost, and we're busy singing and dancing to the tunes of the neo Colonialists.

Heck our kids learn to sing and praise the goras still, Jack and Jill went up the hill, but why not Fatima and Ali?


And this is what this thread is suggesting, providing a justification for imposing western cultural values on to our masses sponsored by the secular liberal elites, and giving it a 'patriotic' approval.

If we keep fighting over why jack and jill are not known and Fatima and Ali, thats the legacy we will be leaving our children. We have lost a lot of time fighting over this. Let us not loose another 20 years while we decide how to recreate that story. Learn from them to beat them. No other way. I should not always have to give the japanese examples after they got nuked.
 
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Israel out of all those places? Oh sir, Com'on! That's very shortsighted way of looking at Israel. I don't mean to be bias, but Israel exists because of economic and military donations from the US. If you give that much money to the poor Africans, I'm sure they might come up with some remarkable inventions.
That is a poor excuse to denigrate Israel's legitimate achievements. The Israelis have not accomplished this much because of aid from the US (though it undoubtedly helps), but because of the domestic policies the State has chosen to pursue. The Egyptians get just as much aid from the US, why are they not even close to the Israelis? How about the ****** rich Gulf Arab States? What is their excuse, given that they have more money than even Israel, with aid from the US, could dream about?

The difference is in attitude, thinking and policies. The Israelis have invested in education, research, infrastructure and allowing freedom of expression and creativity. The Muslim world, in general, has invested in 'which foot goes first when entering a mosque' and 'restricting creativity and free expression under the garb of 'culture and tradition'.
And, Pakistan should NOT emulate an apartheid state with the most Human Rights abuse cases filed against her in UN.
Pakistan should not emulate Israel's policies with respect to the Palestinians, but that is a strawman in anycase, since I was very specific, with the list I presented, in what policies of Israel Pakistan should emulate.

Israel's domestic policies and achievements need to be lauded.
The best example would be Malaysia and Iran. I would say Malaysia is the best country in the Islamic world that goes by religion, with tolerance and ethics.
And interestingly enough, the ethnic Chinese (non-Muslims) are the most successful community (in terms of education and economic status and contributions) in Malaysia.

Iran is hardly 'the best country'. It is a nation that forces draconian restrictions on women, from dress to their rights as wives and daughters. It embodies some of the worst aspects of a repressive and patriarchal society.

Yes, it is yards better than Saudi Arabia, but that is an extremely low bar to begin with.
 
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Now, coming to ur point,,, today, it's jeans/T-shirts & no-touch policy, u never know what it will be tommorrow,,, or may be u do know!!!! That's how things always start... If u really don't want ur ladies to become **** stars then u gonna have to put certain boundaries in place today otherwise tommarrow will not be in ur control...
No one is suggesting that Pakistan liberalize to the extent of the West, but even if it did, would you kindly illustrate to me what proportion of the women in the West are 'pornstars', given the 'extreme liberalism' present there?

Yours is a poor 'slippery slope' argument. One could use this to justify pretty much any sort of restriction, and in fact it has been in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran, and to a degree even in Pakistan. Women have been barred form wearing anything but Burqas, or barred from driving and even from education. And in imposing all those restrictions the arguments were identical to yours, 'X is against our culture and will lead to 'fahashi' and immorality'.

You and some others believe you are being reasonable when you argue that 'jeans and T-shirts' representing 'Western dress' are inappropriate and that women should only wear Shalwar Qamiz. The Saudi, Iranian and Taliban Mullah's believe they are being reasonable by calling for complete Burqa's or Hijab's and restrictions on a woman's movements and even whether she can drive or get and education in some cases!

In fact it is your argument that leads to a slippery slope that is extremely dangerous. The West, if you believe it is beset with debauchery due to its 'liberalism', has shown us the worst that can happen. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran have also shown us the worst that can happen when 'conservatism' is taken to extremes.

Between the two, I think I'll go with the 'worst case scenario' of the West - indeed, no rational individual would choose the Saudi or Afghan case over the West.
 
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It is a nation that forces draconian restrictions on women, from dress to their rights as wives and daughters. It embodies some of the worst aspects of a repressive and patriarchal society.

In the traditional "Muslim" society, a female can either be a mother, daughter or a wife. There is no other role. Their activities are controlled extensively by the holy males.

would you kindly illustrate to me what proportion of the women in the West are 'pornstars', given the 'extreme liberalism' present there?

The same as the number of prostitutes in Pakistan, maybe less.
 
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Thanks God zagahaga!!
:smitten:

May Allah give you everything!

It is never too late.

I hope you show more tolerance.

Now we should say sorry to Sparklingview (thread opener) for going off topic!

:what::what: ye ...... we should ...but on the other hand we shouldent but we should....:lol:.... nehow its sad to end it like this ... as muslims we are to stand up in what we belive but on the other hand god told us not to opress women even if it means that they can wear inaccessible cloathing.
 
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No one is suggesting that Pakistan liberalize to the extent of the West, but even if it did, would you kindly illustrate to me what proportion of the women in the West are 'pornstars', given the 'extreme liberalism' present there?

Well i don't agree with that...... the percentage of prostitutes is extremely high in UK. The area where i live has at least 4-5 clubs and cross my town and you find plenty of more clubs overall there are hundreds of prostitutes even in the smallest town of UK and the situation in Europe is even worse and lets not talk about swingers offering free ***

Prostitutes in London offer sex for £15 - Telegraph

Btw i have been offered for SEX quite a few times :rofl: thanks to the crap UK culture but PAKISTAN the situation is not like that.

Women have been barred form wearing anything but Burqas, or barred from driving and even from education. And in imposing all those restrictions the arguments were identical to yours, 'X is against our culture and will lead to 'fahashi' and immorality'.

Who says Womens have been barred from driving or wearing anything but burqas or even from Education? It is not the case at least in Punjab. My female cousins have been driving in Pakistan since decades now. I have hardly seen them wearing Burqas in my life (can't remember). Even in some towns of Pakistan womens are more educated than mens take an example of my city Gujrat. I know the situation in NWFP or Balochistan is like that but you cannot claim to be true in Punjab area for sure.

In the traditional "Muslim" society, a female can either be a mother, daughter or a wife. There is no other role. Their activities are controlled extensively by the holy males.

Jao bhi check karo they are recruiting females even in PAF and first of all who is following Islam in Pakistan.
 
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no for real how can you guys be protecting liberals you saw what happend in iran? the so called sha era? that is what is happening in paksitan people are ghetting fed up by the so called western way of life mixed with paksitani way of life... soon you know your whole country is run by fundamentalist! :lol:
 
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Who says Womens have been barred from driving or wearing anything but burqas or even from Education? It is not the case at least in Punjab.
He was referring to Saudi Arabia. Although they now are allowing women to drive within cities, in day time (after permission from husband), but they cannot ask directions from males on their way.

A couple of years ago a story hit big when a women was prosecuted for "driving" because she overtook the driving seat when her husband suffered from a cardiac arrest while driving on the highway.

Jao bhi check karo they are recruiting females even in PAF and first of all who is following Islam in Pakistan.

Exceptions do not counter a general behaviour. Outlying events are always their but you cannot deny that these are the only roles our society has crafted for women and men cannot bear independent women.
 
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He was referring to Saudi Arabia. Although they now are allowing women to drive within cities, in day time (after permission from husband), but they cannot ask directions from males on their way.

A couple of years ago a story hit big when a women was prosecuted for "driving" because she overtook the driving seat when her husband suffered from a cardiac arrest while driving on the highway.



Exceptions do not counter a general behaviour. Outlying events are always their but you cannot deny that these are the only roles our society has crafted for women and men cannot bear independent women.

oh yaar you are talking about 1999. Musharraf chacha ne pata nai kya kya introduce karwa diya hai........ you find beauty parlours all across the street. You find female waiters in any poss restaurants. You find female receptiantinists in any office. You find female teachers in every secondry school. You find a lot female professors now also. The hospitals are filled up with female doctors and nurses

I don't know which year of Pakistan you are talking about or probably you have been staying abroad for a long time now.

Mane to wahan Barber shops bhi dekhain hain females ki ........... :rofl:
 
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oh yaar you are talking about 1999. Musharraf chacha ne pata nai kya kya introduce karwa diya hai........ you find beauty parlours all across the street. You find female waiters in any poss restaurants. You find female receptiantinists in any office. You find female teachers in every secondry school. You find a lot female professors now also. The hospitals are filled up with female doctors and nurses
Urban areas catering to a upper middle class do not represent the whole society. Even in these areas, females suffer heavily. Even the educated female doctors , wives of educated people suffer domestic abuse thanks to our male masochistic highly patriarchal system.

Karo-kari and honour killings are still widespread. Victims of sexual abuse are harassed not to speak and bring "dis honour" to the family. A women is still the "dignity" of the males of a family and either a sister, daughter or wife. She has no independent identity.
 
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You're going a bit over the top here. Who decides whether she is property of males? I can bet you vast majority of them would say otherwise than what you say.
 
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