Dancing in presence of PM Gillani

[Al-zakir]

This is what pisses me off: (i.e.music, singing, etc.). This is not in the quran, but translators add this, everything in parenthesis is added. This is actually quite an undoing of the Islamic way of life. The Quran should not be toyed with in this way.

Sir Asim
Dog meat is also haram in Islam yet Qur'an doesn't give us clear direction about it as it has clearly mention about pork.

“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine,

and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah.”

[Al-Qur’an 5:3]

There are such issues may not be clear cut in Qur'an or Hadith thus interpretation needed. Religious scholar can guide us with such issue based on their extensive study on Qur'an and Sunnah given the fact that their interpretation automatically discredited if it's directly contradict with Qur'an and Sahi hadith.

 

[muse]

INteresting, not even one of these chicken hawk islamist could deal with the "La iqra fi ad deen"

Alas, how deep they are is now open to all to judge -

 

[ajpirzada]

Allright Mr. Pirzada, please see pages 3 to 6 on this thread - incredible, we even have to help them argue against us.

well it was u who wanted me to read that post. so i guess u need to learn how to reffer properly instead of being sarcy.

will get back to u after readin that post

 

[ajpirzada]

Mr. Pirzada, why would anybody care what you think?? Who left Islam to you??

no one would care about wat i say. that is y unlike u im not givin my own thoughts rather sayin wat most of the religous scholors say.

However; since you want to appraoch the issue only on your terms, please refer to DarkStar's posts, complete hadith.

these are not my terms. how else r u gonna find out wat is rit or wrong (religious matters) if u are not gonna study Quran, Ahadith and Tafsirs. and that is all wat i am requesting u. to come up with evidence from Quran or Ahadith or Tafsir to prove ur point.
And about the hadith u r tryin to quote; i guess u never bothered to find it urself and look at wat it really says or did u? anyways i did it for u (a better way of sayin thanks to u for guiding me to DS's post)

After a while, 'A'isha asked the girls to leave, and the Prophet asked 'A'isha whether she would like to watch the Abyssinians who were giving a fighting display with their weapons in the mosque and she said yes. "By Allah," said 'A'isha, "I remember the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) standing at the door of my room, screening me with his cloak, so that I could see the sport of the Abyssinians as they played with their spears in the mosque of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He kept standing for my sake until I had enough and then I went back in, so you can well imagine how a young girl enjoyed watching this display."
The Muslims Internet Directory: Aisha Siddiqa bint Abu Bakr

so first of all it was not a dance but more lik a sport which was being played inside Prophet's mosque. Atleast nothing similar to wat we are debating about here.

Islamist lunes imagine that because they proclaim themselves something or the other that it must be important for the rest of us - the only thing important about Islamists is the grave threat they pose to civil society. Now they imagine that some evidence from Quran or hadith should be accepted and other rejected -- this is the continual problem -- one for time, all INTERPRETATIONS are based on the knowledge of the time and therefore the interpretations will continue to change and evolve as the knowledge of the time does, ofc ourse Islamists are not into interpretation, they are into the literal.

well we are not talkin about 'islamist lunes' unless u r callim me one. and if the basis of that is me referrin to Quran, Hadith and Tafsir than i dont mind. Secondly no one is tellin u to reject any other eividence from Quran or Hadith and you are most welcome to bring any which allows women dancing infront of men.

It is not enough that thay are greatly enraged b y this woman dancing and the PM delighted at the dance - they are not enraged that Pakistan have been unable in their "Islamic" wisdom, to create a economy so that women may find employment that does not offend the islamist, of course the very idea of women employed effends the islamist - they are not enraged that the Islmaist culture gives rise to hypocracy in society because the Islamist lives in utopia and in Utopia
all is perfect.

y do u always bring 'islamists' in ur argument when there is no need. i cant speak for 'islamists' who are only worried about one or two things. all i can do is assure u that i am equally worried about unemployment and hypocracy. but rit now lets stick to the topic which is if women dancing infront of men is acceptable in islam or not.

Mr. Pirzada, whatever happened to La Iqra Fi ad Deen? please do address this point.

did i disagree with 'There is no compulsion in religion'?

 

[muse]

Mr. Pirzada

Now we are back to interpreting, DS sees it as dance you see it as sport - now to the heart of the matter - even if we come back to sport, what we will have is a source that is, reasonable persons will agree, less than unimpeachable.

You and others have suggested that dance is offensive, generally, some of the other respondents, hedge their bets, it's Ok between women, it's Ok between men, but not together in mixed company.

Here the issue is larger, is the religious persepective informed by a particular understanding of Islam, the only way to understand this issue?? Why do those who are persuaded by this point of view so insistent that their view is the sole, exclusive, way to look at the issue, even as you say you do not disagree with the idea "La Iqra fi Ad Deen" - so, I think you can see why so many are confused as to the real position you are proposing, is the religious understanding you suggest is the only way to look at this or is it that forcing or imposing a particular religious point of view, unacceptable in Islam?

Another aspect of the issue, is of course to not view this with any reference to religion or religious understanding - Dance is a cultural reality in Pakistan, it is a art form, that some associate immoral and unethical practices with it, is also a fact, however; as we do not mark all Muslims with the label "terrorists", we do not view Dance and dancers as immoral or unethical.

y do u always bring 'islamists' in ur argument when there is no need

Mr. Pirzada, any position in which all cultual propositions are viewed only with reference to a particular understanding of Islam, is a refelection of Islamism -- See, islam is ablout faith in God, not the culture of a 7th century tribal culture in Arabia - Islam, the religion, exists in all parts of the world, however; that does not mean that it destroys the culture of the societies in which it exists - Muslims were admonished when the beloved prophet passed away, that if they worshipped the prophet, then they should know that he was passed away, but if the worshipped God, He is still their lord, similarly Muslims were advised that Islam the religion, is not the same as the culture of 7th century tribal society in Arabia, that the adherents of Islam are Muslims, not arabs of 7th century.

Pakistan is a largely Muslim country and we are proud of that and we are proud of our Pakistani heritage and our pre-Islamic heritages as well - we, Pakistan, have a rich and long history of cultures, we need not abondon it just because some confuse islam with the culture of 7th century Arabia.

 

[Enigma SIG]

INteresting, not even one of these chicken hawk islamist could deal with the "La iqra fi ad deen"

Alas, how deep they are is now open to all to judge -

Would Islam had survived on this notion?

True; there is not compulsion in religion; but had the Prophets not spread the word of Islam by stopping bad morality and spreading the word against it?

Had Prophet Lut stood down after seeing all the vices of the homosexuals in his place of living? You want muslims to turn a blind eye to all that happens in our country in the name of culture? This is not our culture; this is the culture of the stupid mughals promulgated in the form of tawaif khanas which you can still see in Lahore's heera mandi; which ultimately led to their downfall. If you regard that as Pakistani culture; i feel sorry for our nation.

We do not ask non-muslims to follow our deen; rather it is our duty to protect our faith; and respect the minorities; regardless of what the non-muslim minorities indulge in. This is La Ikraha fid deen.

I am not responsible for your faith; but to dignify something which has been abhorred by the Quran and the Prophet SAW himself; is viewed as distortion which many secularists indulge in.

So what if dancing has not been explicitly made haraam in the Quran? Is the way of salaat also mentioned in the Quran? How do you know your salaat is correct? It is by the traditions of the Prophet SAW and his sunnah. Try to search the traditions and im sure you will get a lot against dancing and music...

 

[muse]

Imran


Thank you for your post, you represent Saudi version of Islam well. We said earlier that the particular religiosity seeks to contract the experience of Being muslim, that it seeks to straight jacket Islam and Muslim into what Saudi insist that it is:

So what if dancing has not been explicitly made haraam in the Quran? Is the way of salaat also mentioned in the Quran? How do you know your salaat is correct?

This is a position normally carted out when the Saudi Islam finds itself unable to muster Faith as the central meaning of Islam, which it obviously cannot, because it is focused on Behavior of a particular kind -- now if God is God, can there possibly be a "correct" way to offer Salat? Does God, if he is God, not hear the Christian, the buddhist, the Hindu or the Jew?? DO these offer Salat in the manner of the Muslim, does the Shiaah offer salat as the Sunni?? Does it matter??

The entire effort to "brand name" and to enculturate in a particular view is the anti-thesis of Islam - Islam is submisson to the Will of God, all who do so are Muslims, offering prayer in a particular manner has zero implication for the faithful, but has everything to do with those who seek to contract Islam, "only this way" is their Islam of outward appearance, the size of your beard, how high is your shalwar over your ankles, did you open your fast with a date, how many rakah, who saw you pray, where do pray, whom do you follow, etc. .

This is not our culture; this is the culture of the stupid mughals promulgated in the form of tawaif khanas which you can still see in Lahore's heera mandi; which ultimately led to their downfall. If you regard that as Pakistani culture; i feel sorry for our nation

Thank you for this, yet another example of applying a particular religious worldview to understand history, and may I add, a particularly shallow understandingof both religion and history. On one hand you suggest that it is a part of our cultural history and on the other you say it is not - you seem confused about this aspect.

La Iqra fi ad ad Deen:

Would Islam had survived on this notion?

True; there is not compulsion in religion; but had the Prophets not spread the word of Islam by stopping bad morality and spreading the word against it?

Would Islam have survived on this notion, you ask - that is all any real Muslim needs to know about the Saudi Islam - hypocracy is built into it -- so I guess, it's OK for propaganda, but not reality?

Not only would it survive, it has been surviving on this idea, that is why there is diversity and pluralism within Islam - this Saudi islam with it's phony "companions" BS, is just from the 1800s and while arbys buy into it, Muslims it is obvious view it with suspicion, as a kinds of Arby imperialim, imparting arby culture and not islam of meaning, of Faith in God.

Interesting, so, is there or is there not, compulsion in religion - this is not a "maybe" or depends answer, it is either "yes there is" or "no, there is not" - it is interesting that you assosicate bad morality with dancing but if one is to offer that the obscene number of child molestation by Mullahs and Maulvi suggest that Islam itself is bad morality, would you find merit in such a suggestion??????????

You come across as ernest but confused, no one is suggesting that bad morality should not be spoken up against, but it is interesting that the Saudi Islam's morality is itself suspect, for it does not speak up against child moslestation by Mullah, it does not speak up against extremists such as lal Masjid types, but instead denies Pakistani culture. Would it be fair to suggest that Saudi Islam, which you indeed do an excellent job of representating, takes more offence at any behaviour when it involves women and especially when women express or are seen to express a freedom from the Saudi social norms??

I hope you will regard our exchanges as means to examine some positions and not as personal. Religious world view is important and valid, but it is not the entirety of the ways in which we can understand our experience of Being.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Imran


Thank you for your post, you represent Saudi version of Islam well. We said earlier that the particular religiosity seeks to contract the experience of Being muslim, that it seeks to straight jacket Islam and Muslim into what Saudi insist that it is:


I hope you will regard our exchanges as means to examine some positions and not as personal. Religious world view is important and valid, but it is not the entirety of the ways in which we can understand our experience of Being.

umm you're mistaken buddy i abhor the saudi's actually; am idelogically opposed to wahhabism as im a twelver shia. i'll come back with my reply though soon

 

[muse]

In which case, my sincere apology.

 

[Razzaq]

It's not fair Gillani G.........

 

[muse]

Gillani G? Is that like Ali G except less cool?

 

[ajpirzada]

muse

Now we are back to interpreting, DS sees it as dance you see it as sport - now to the heart of the matter - even if we come back to sport, what we will have is a source that is, reasonable persons will agree, less than unimpeachable.

well if u have read the hadith carefully, u must have also noticed that this was play was happenin in the mosque. now this will help explain if it was dance or not. well wateva u may wanna call it, can that be compared with the video posted on the first page? For me this video has crossed the limits set it islam.

You and others have suggested that dance is offensive, generally, some of the other respondents, hedge their bets, it's Ok between women, it's Ok between men, but not together in mixed company.

im only sure about the last type and therefore wont say anything about first two.

Here the issue is larger, is the religious persepective informed by a particular understanding of Islam, the only way to understand this issue?? Why do those who are persuaded by this point of view so insistent that their view is the sole, exclusive, way to look at the issue, even as you say you do not disagree with the idea "La Iqra fi Ad Deen" - so, I think you can see why so many are confused as to the real position you are proposing, is the religious understanding you suggest is the only way to look at this or is it that forcing or imposing a particular religious point of view, unacceptable in Islam?

there are so many different schools of thoughts. and almost all of them consider this un-islamic. so the question of only way to look at this does not hold.

Another aspect of the issue, is of course to not view this with any reference to religion or religious understanding - Dance is a cultural reality in Pakistan, it is a art form, that some associate immoral and unethical practices with it, is also a fact, however; as we do not mark all Muslims with the label "terrorists", we do not view Dance and dancers as immoral or unethical.

yes its culture and art. but does culture and art has to cross the islamic lines? if yes then do we really have to say islam allows this coz its part of my culture? pre islamic era had also many different cultures which muslims stopped following bec they were objectionable in islam.

islam can be a part of ur culture but culture does not always become part of islam.

 

[Enigma SIG]

You come across as ernest but confused, no one is suggesting that bad morality should not be spoken up against, but it is interesting that the Saudi Islam's morality is itself suspect, for it does not speak up against child moslestation by Mullah, it does not speak up against extremists such as lal Masjid types, but instead denies Pakistani culture. Would it be fair to suggest that Saudi Islam, which you indeed do an excellent job of representating, takes more offence at any behaviour when it involves women and especially when women express or are seen to express a freedom from the Saudi social norms??

Sorry for replying late muse...

I cannot answer to this paragraph; as i do not follow the wahabi interpretation of Islam.

But as I said before; dancing is deemed haram in Islam; whatever the interpretation; and as ajpirzada said; art and culture do not have to cross Islamic lines.

Art and Culture even existed in the time of the Prophet SAW but dancing was never a part of that.

Dancing and music in Pakistani culture are deemed to be local customs; not representing the Islamic customs. There are several ahadith against "ghina".

There is really no compulsion in religion; that is with regards to non-muslims. We are not allowed to forcefully convert non-muslims; rather they should convert by seeing the actions of the muslims and seeing the good in Islam.

But Allah commands us (muslims) to enter the deen fully; not halfway (believing some commands of Allah and leaving and some). We as humans by nature accept commands that are in our favor; and leave out those which go against us.

 

[muse]

Imran

Thank you for you post - I wish you had given more thought to your response

dancing is deemed haram in Islam; whatever the interpretation; and as ajpirzada said; art and culture do not have to cross Islamic lines

.

Dancing is certainly not haram - it may be deemed Haram by some, however; as DS has already pointed out, both the beloved prophet and his wife Ayesha viewed dance - now some will call it, altheletic exercise - call it what you will. The larger issue in your response is similar to arguing that society is and ought to remain in stasis, that society is and should be as if 7th century tribal society - this is itself the crux of the problem - the notion that society can be arrested in time, or that a specific society in a specific time, space and geography can be recreated and ought to be -- as if it was a perfect society - it wasn't, there never can be.

Cricket was not a cultural aspect as it is now, should it also be declared "unIslamic" and "haram" - neither were mass communication and personal communication devices, should these also be declared haram??

The idea or the purpose, my purpose anyway, is allow for a reexamining of ideas about culture and attitudes about culture that are flawed, there is more to culture than a jhudgemental attitude derived from a particular religiosity - for religion to be meaningful to a free peoples of a free country and Pakistan hope to such, then religion must find a role in conscience and culture, and not assume that it is the entirety of either conscience or culture, don't you think?

 

[Enigma SIG]

Dancing is certainly not haram - it may be deemed Haram by some, however; as DS has already pointed out, both the beloved prophet and his wife Ayesha viewed dance - now some will call it, altheletic exercise - call it what you will. The larger issue in your response is similar to arguing that society is and ought to remain in stasis, that society is and should be as if 7th century tribal society - this is itself the crux of the problem - the notion that society can be arrested in time, or that a specific society in a specific time, space and geography can be recreated and ought to be -- as if it was a perfect society - it wasn't, there never can be.

The hadith of the Prophet SAW and Aisha viewing a dance is not authentic according to Shia sources; as it puts into question the Infallibility of the Prophet SAW.

"....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one." (Quran 76:24)

53:1
By the Star when it sets,
53:2
Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived
53:3
Nor does he speak out of his desire;
53:4
It is no less than a revelation that is revealed.
53:5
The Mighty in Power has taught him.

The Prophet SAW does not speak by himself; nor his actions are out of the will of Allah. The dance tradition is outrageous and blasphemous at best...

Society can be adapted to a new geography or time; it doesn't necessarily mean that the basis of society should be abandoned. We're in the 21st century; should we abandon the Nikah to adopt the western system where pre-marital sex is allowed? Nikah is so 7th century...
This is the same problem with burqa/hijab and other Islamic symbols in the west; they are deemed to confine the freedom of humans; whereas it is the opposite; they protect the fabric of our society against moral degradation.

Cricket was not a cultural aspect as it is now, should it also be declared "unIslamic" and "haram" - neither were mass communication and personal communication devices, should these also be declared haram??

There is a difference between immoral activities and activities which do not defy any Islamic laws. Cricket in itself is not "Haraam"; but if it leads away from the remembrance of Allah; it is not permissible.