DAC has given nod for construction of six submarines under Project-75(I): G

[sancho]

@sancho

I think the S-80 "Super Scorpene" should be selected which has NAVANTIA as prime contractor
and DCNS as prime subcontractor - we should look to fit these SSKs with BrahMos Block-I ASCM (290km)
and Block-III LACM (550km) (for land-attack capability) and the AIP propulsion too

I hope not beacause of the Sangupta article.

Personally I don't see why the S80 should be selected. I didn't find any info that it could add VLS for Brahmos and since the design is similar to Scorpene, the chances are low as well.
Although it has some commonality to Scorpene, most of the systems will be completely new, that results into less ease of production, training and increased logistical costs (instead of simply ordering Scorpenes with AIP).
The AIP propulsion comes from Spain and is unproven, just like the whole sub, since there is not even a single one operational yet. The financial problems of Spain might even delay the production and induction. All this are disadvantages, especially when the aim is production in India under ToT. The longer they take to produce the subs, the longer they will need to divert ToT to us, which makes delays likely again.
Then there is the issue that the sub is mainly a mix of design and systems bought from other countries, similar to Gripen in MMRCA. Designed in France, with systems from the US and Spain, diesel engines from Germany..., all this makes diverting critical ToT to India more difficult and the more parties are involved, the more chances for production delays again.

With all this in mind, why should we opt for a varient of Scorpene, we we already produce the original and could easily get the larger one with AIP propulsion?
Compared to the other offers I don't see a major advantage by procuring them either. The Germans offer the most proven AIP system, advanced sensors and weapons, the Russians Brahmos, customisation and low procurement costs as always.

IMO We should let the foreign OEM build 2 subs, remaining 4 should be divided between a private shipyard
(L&T, for instance) and a public-sector one (MDL) constructing 2 subs each. The technology and work
expierience with these subs should be put into practice to design & build India's own AIP-powered SSK
with DRDO-developed AIP module, and induct atleast 10-16 such subs to supplement P-75 & P-75I.

I don't give much hope to DRDO developing an AIP propulsion anytime soon, especially since you first needs the primary propulsion of the subs, which is diesel-electric!
Secondly, with long term industrial advantages in mind, I think we should use this chance and team up with DCNS or HDW to jointly develop a sub for IN, that also could be offered for the export market. With the current financial situation in Europe, neither French, nor German government will fund new sub developments anytime soon, that's where India can jump in as an industrial partner and get large parts of the exportproduction too. French navy don't use Diesel-Electric subs at all, which makes India as the perfect partner for DCNS as well.
We should not be so shortsighted because we want everything developed and produced in India, but see the current advantages on a global level. India can not only be the low cost production hub for the west, but a credible industrial partner in joint developments too, we MUST make use of their weakness today!

 

[sancho]

Why is everyone not interested in HDW Type -216

Because it's only a paper sub today. It is based on the U212/214 subs, but larger and with new capabilities that has to be developed and tested first. So far we don't even know if they really are on offer for US or only for Australian navy.
I do think it would be a good chance for a partnership, but it wouldn't be a fast addition of new subs.

 

[Yogi]

if Germans r ready to provide U-216 than okays else go bigger Scropenes same as Brazil or better...

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Pls Don't deviate, Stick to the Topic

It was u, who started the 'diversion'

 

[arp2041]

It was u, who started the 'diversion'

No, it was u when u asked - German or French, without stating about what u r talking about

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

No, it was u when u asked - German or French, without stating about what u r talking about

Buddy i am a good boy Not like you

 

[sancho]

if Germans r ready to provide U-216 than okays else go bigger Scropenes same as Brazil or better...

Germans are ready to provide, but only as a future development, since that version is just a study now. The sub offered in the competition is the U214, since that is the one that can be produced today.
Btw, even if the U216 might have VLS capability, it is doubtful that it can carry Bhramos missiles. Developing this sub as a joint development, according to INs requirement and with the aim to integrate Nirbhay would be a very good long term solution, while additional Scorpenes could be in the short term.

 

[jha]

I support bigger Scorpenes. Anyway these will be the last Submarines IN will buy from foreign countries..

 

[sancho]

If somebody is interested, some specs of subs that could be interesting for IN:

(I didn't added range, because it always depends on a given speed, which differs from sub to sub and that makes a comparison difficult)

Corrections and additions are welcomed!

 

[faithfulguy]

Germans are ready to provide, but only as a future development, since that version is just a study now. The sub offered in the competition is the U214, since that is the one that can be produced today.
Btw, even if the U216 might have VLS capability, it is doubtful that it can carry Bhramos missiles. Developing this sub as a joint development, according to INs requirement and with the aim to integrate Nirbhay would be a very good long term solution, while additional Scorpenes could be in the short term.

I understand why place Brahmos in a conventional sub for defensive purpose for short distance land attack. But India would be the irate to put a long distance LACM in a none nuclear track sub. India need to get a SSN platform for Nirbhay to be most affective.

 

[sancho]

I understand why place Brahmos in a conventional sub for defensive purpose for short distance land attack. But India would be the irate to put a long distance LACM in a none nuclear track sub. India need to get a SSN platform for Nirbhay to be most affective.

Why? What has the propulsion of the sub to do with the need to strike at long range?

Take an Indo-Pak war as an example, with Russian Klub - S and Brahmos missiles, IN will only be able to attack targets up to 300Km range. Adding a Nirbhay, that most likely offers higher ranges, provides the capability for maritime long range strikes too. The propulsion has no meaning in this scenario and you can turn it the other way around too. An U216 has an endurance of around 80 days, more than enough to sail to the Chinese Sea, attack targets at long range and return to India, without the need to be refuelled or rearmed inbetween.

Not to mention that the simple fact that Brahmos most likely will be too long for most SSKs, vertically launched Club-S, naval Scalp, or Nirbhay will be more likely anyway. Imo, Brahmos will only be integrated into SSBNs and SSNs, but not because of the propulsion, but because of the diameter of the hull.

 

[Yogi]

Why? What has the propulsion of the sub to do with the need to strike at long range?

Take an Indo-Pak war as an example, with Russian Klub - S and Brahmos missiles, IN will only be able to attack targets up to 300Km range. Adding a Nirbhay, that most likely offers higher ranges, provides the capability for maritime long range strikes too. The propulsion has no meaning in this scenario and you can turn it the other way around too. An U216 has an endurance of around 80 days, more than enough to sail to the Chinese Sea, attack targets at long range and return to India, without the need to be refuelled or rearmed inbetween.

Not to mention that the simple fact that Brahmos most likely will be too long for most SSKs, vertically launched Club-S, naval Scalp, or Nirbhay will be more likely anyway. Imo, Brahmos will only be integrated into SSBNs and SSNs, but not because of the propulsion, but because of the diameter of the hull.

Doesn't Russia already has sub version of Yankot?

Off topic:
@sancho brthr i asked u a few questions in Story of Arjun thread, may be u forgot can u plz answer them...

www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/223188-story-mbt-80-arjun.html

 

[sancho]

Doesn't Russia already has sub version of Yankot?

But not for SSKs, the Kilo class only uses Klub S, while bigger SSBNs and the new SSGNs can use the Onix / Brahmos

Off topic:
@sancho brthr i asked u a few questions in Story of Arjun thread, may be u forgot can u plz answer them...

www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/223188-story-mbt-80-arjun.html

Sorry, with this new mention function I get pretty many questions, hard to keep up with them. Wrt the MBTs, I can't tell you about the ToT issue, I am not that into that field, but Indianrabbit, or Indian Army have some good knowledge and can help you for sure.