Cultural links between India and the Greco-Roman world

[General Observer]

Common trait across these three empire/kingdoms, what have you, is that all have contributed greatly to modern mathematics. We all owe greatly to ancient mathematicians from the Indian Subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, areas using Sunskrit etc.) for deriving the modern numeric system, with the introduction of the '0' concept, as well as modern trigonometric concepts.

 

[dadeechi]

Thanks for confirming that India was a geographical expression. India, Africa, Arabia and Asian minor were geographical locations in Ancient times. So the people lived in those locations were Indians, Africans, Arabians.. Etc. they were Not a country or empire.



Actually, China was created in 221 BC with the creation of first Chinese empire. A Chinese national identity was formed at that time. Since then, the Chinese has an identity as one unifying country. When China was divided into many parts, it has an awareness that it was divided. Indians only had this awareness after British created India. Prior to that, Indians has no single nation awareness. It contained empires and kingdoms. But these political entities are not a continuation of one another. For example, does the Mughal emperor see itself as the successor of Ashoka? No they didn't.. They see themselves as successor of Tamerlane. On the other hand, the last emperor of China see itself as the successor to the first Chinese emperor more than two thousand years earlier.

Modern India was united under Ram. many millennia before Greeks called this region India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

You mean Pakistan?

What else? OP did not have the decency of saying Pakistan. Instead he just fabricated the title of this thread. Note the Persian inscription state clearly - Gandhara, Hindush, Arachosia and Gedrosia. This is approximate to Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Sindh and Balochistan. Satagydia was probably Punjab.

No where do the Persian inscription say "India". Rendering it as India is false transliteration. As in 2015 those provinces stated in the Persian inscription are Pakistan. I reiterate the Persian inscription read "Hindosh" which is Sindh.

This thread is typical Indian theft and fabrication of history. The statue and other artifacts are from Taxila area, which was central to Gandhara Kingdom and the Greek Kingdoms. Taxila - Sirkap (coloured in red line) with Greek ruins is on the outskirts of Pakistan's capital Islamabad and home of Pakistan's military Rawalpindi (coloured in green line)

Sirkap (Urdu: سر کپ‎) is the name of an archaeological site on the bank opposite to the city of Taxila, Punjab, Pakistan.


The city of Sirkap was built by the Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius and his son Stultus. after he invaded ancient India around 180 BC. Demetrius founded in the northern and northwestern modern Pakistan an Indo-Greek kingdom that was to last until around 10 BC. Sirkap is also said to have been rebuilt by king Menander I.

This is simply a case of people who have barely any history ( the Ganges India and Dravidian India have nothing in ancient times ) picking and choosing other peoples history from thousand miles away and just bracketing it as Indian.

If you want to be true to history why not rely on what the Persian inscriptions say. Then transliterating those names to 2015. We are not in the British Raj era. That came to end in 1947.

Just in case people's there is any ambiguity I have the map of Archeamenid Persia with differant satrapies. Over them I have indented the modern state of Pakistan in red line. It of course falls over the Persian satrapies of Hindosh, Arachosia, Gedrosia and Sattagydia.

Below is the map of Alexander's conquest overlaid on the modern world.

Below is route in red by Alexander through Pakistan. It is only for illustration purposes and does not follow the exact route however does give approximate idea. The green are significant points along the route through Pakistan. Hydaspes of course is the site of battle with Punjabi king Porus on the modern River Jhelum. Notice almost everything remains within Indus Basin/Pakistan.

Now I have no idea how the Indian's have dreamed up as all this happening in their Indian Republic. As can be seen India remains safely well east of all the action. This Indian delusion is equivalent of Pakistani's start dreaming they were behind Ancient Persia.

It must be understood that neither India or Pakistan as they are understood today existed. The names given in records like Hindosh have to be transliterated - This is where the Indian's put in grapes into the translieration converter and out comes pineapple.

Then they very deftly add on events in their Ganga so that it al becomes one huge aggregate which then is tagged as India - result they sit their with light shining out of their proverbial ...... !!!

Fact: Anything and everything in ancient times happened on the Indus basin. Transliterate that to 2015 and it is Pakistan.

Taxila Musuem - Pakistan just outside Islamabad. Most of the Greek inspired artifacts are kept here.

Plan of Sirkap, Pakistan

The real thing

Ps. The intention of all this distortion is to create the effect and perception that it was today's India that was home to these events in history.

 

[Jamwal's]

Thanks for confirming that India was a geographical expression. India, Africa, Arabia and Asian minor were geographical locations in Ancient times. So the people lived in those locations were Indians, Africans, Arabians.. Etc. they were Not a country or empire.



Actually, China was created in 221 BC with the creation of first Chinese empire. A Chinese national identity was formed at that time. Since then, the Chinese has an identity as one unifying country. When China was divided into many parts, it has an awareness that it was divided. Indians only had this awareness after British created India. Prior to that, Indians has no single nation awareness. It contained empires and kingdoms. But these political entities are not a continuation of one another. For example, does the Mughal emperor see itself as the successor of Ashoka? No they didn't.. They see themselves as successor of Tamerlane. On the other hand, the last emperor of China see itself as the successor to the first Chinese emperor more than two thousand years earlier.

1: Do i have to bring up the maps again? The only region where SOME people look like Indians is in Sindh.

2: Pakistan can be recognized through Music (such as Qawali), ancient civilizations, clothes, religion and a shit load of other cultural stuff.



Again that is like classifying all of Asia as one country with one ethnicity and one culture.



These Indians can never get it.

Indica is the account of patliputra (present day india) the capital of indian empire,what it has to do with present day pakistan.You pakistanis can't even honor your own ancestors yet you are claiming the part of indo greek cultural heritage here.

 

[faithfulguy]

What else? OP did not have the decency of saying Pakistan. Instead he just fabricated the title of this thread. Note the Persian inscription state clearly - Gandhara, Hindush, Arachosia and Gedrosia. This is approximate to Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Sindh and Balochistan. Satagydia was probably Punjab.

No where do the Persian inscription say "India". Rendering it as India is false transliteration. As in 2015 those provinces stated in the Persian inscription are Pakistan. I reiterate the Persian inscription read "Hindosh" which is Sindh.

This thread is typical Indian theft and fabrication of history. The statue and other artifacts are from Taxila area, which was central to Gandhara Kingdom and the Greek Kingdoms. Taxila - Sirkap (coloured in red line) with Greek ruins is on the outskirts of Pakistan's capital Islamabad and home of Pakistan's military Rawalpindi (coloured in green line)

Sirkap (Urdu: سر کپ‎) is the name of an archaeological site on the bank opposite to the city of Taxila, Punjab, Pakistan.


The city of Sirkap was built by the Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius and his son Stultus. after he invaded ancient India around 180 BC. Demetrius founded in the northern and northwestern modern Pakistan an Indo-Greek kingdom that was to last until around 10 BC. Sirkap is also said to have been rebuilt by king Menander I.

This is simply a case of people who have barely any history ( the Ganges India and Dravidian India have nothing in ancient times ) picking and choosing other peoples history from thousand miles away and just bracketing it as Indian.

If you want to be true to history why not rely on what the Persian inscriptions say. Then transliterating those names to 2015. We are not in the British Raj era. That came to end in 1947.

Just in case people's there is any ambiguity I have the map of Archeamenid Persia with differant satrapies. Over them I have indented the modern state of Pakistan in red line. It of course falls over the Persian satrapies of Hindosh, Arachosia, Gedrosia and Sattagydia.

Below is the map of Alexander's conquest overlaid on the modern world.

Below is route in red by Alexander through Pakistan. It is only for illustration purposes and does not follow the exact route however does give approximate idea. The green are significant points along the route through Pakistan. Hydaspes of course is the site of battle with Punjabi king Porus on the modern River Jhelum. Notice almost everything remains within Indus Basin/Pakistan.

Now I have no idea how the Indian's have dreamed up as all this happening in their Indian Republic. As can be seen India remains safely well east of all the action. This Indian delusion is equivalent of Pakistani's start dreaming they were behind Ancient Persia.

It must be understood that neither India or Pakistan as they are understood today existed. The names given in records like Hindosh have to be transliterated - This is where the Indian's put in grapes into the translieration converter and out comes pineapple.

Then they very deftly add on events in their Ganga so that it al becomes one huge aggregate which then is tagged as India - result they sit their with light shining out of their proverbial ...... !!!

Fact: Anything and everything in ancient times happened on the Indus basin. Transliterate that to 2015 and it is Pakistan.

Taxila Musuem - Pakistan just outside Islamabad. Most of the Greek inspired artifacts are kept here.

Plan of Sirkap, Pakistan

The real thing

Ps. The intention of all this distortion is to create the effect and perception that it was today's India that was home to these events in history.

Indians today regard British India as the boundary of the historical India. And that Pakistan split off from India. Furthermore, India existed as a nation since Ancient time. This is a total fabrication of history.

 

[gslv mk3]

Indians today regard British India as the boundary of the historical India. And that Pakistan split off from India. Furthermore, India existed as a nation since Ancient time. This is a total fabrication of history.

 

[FullMetalJacket]

1: Do i have to bring up the maps again? The only region where SOME people look like Indians is in Sindh.

2: Pakistan can be recognized through Music (such as Qawali), ancient civilizations, clothes, religion and a shit load of other cultural stuff.



Again that is like classifying all of Asia as one country with one ethnicity and one culture.



These Indians can never get it.

LOL, majority of these "cultural stuff" you speak of is Arab and Persian in origin, that includes your religion, language, food, etc. Please explain to me what religion did the "ancient pakistanis" follow? Was it Jainism? Hinduism? Bhuddism? All you claim is IVC this and IVC that, but the world knows who are the true inheritors. You gave all that up for contents of Arab Imperialism, my brother.

 

[Nilgiri]

Indians today regard British India as the boundary of the historical India.

No the historical borders of "India" as an entity go well beyond British India. Mauryan empire extended well past Afghanistan when Mauryan emperors defeated the Seleucids and Bactrians of Central Asia. We are not in the business (at least most of us anyway) of claiming all of that, just we like to counter people that distort history for their own agenda.

Furthermore, India existed as a nation since Ancient time. This is a total fabrication of history.

So the Yuan dynasty must then also count as a cut, since it was imposed from people outside China. What came after cannot be linked to what was there before according to your logic. How Han did the Manchus of the Qing empire consider themselves to be either?

Even in Europe many still look beyond their individual identities to the various Empires that united many of the modern day countries found there....that created many cultural ties and bonds that still exist to this day. This is true of India as well....basically India inherited a "European Union" from the legacy of the British. We enjoy our diversity and it unites us. If it is alien to a mostly homogenous Han country like yours (which came about because of a very brutal tyrant)...that does not bother us. But don't preach to us from some artificial position that Chinese political enterprise has continued unaltered and uninterrupted since it was first united.

Besides, a single uninterrupted political entity from ancient times is found nowhere in the Earth today....definitely not in countries the size of India and China. We call periods of rule as dynasties for that very reason....specifically because each one eventually ended...rarely peacefully.

 

[faithfulguy]

No the historical borders of "India" as an entity go well beyond British India. Mauryan empire extended well past Afghanistan when Mauryan emperors defeated the Seleucids and Bactrians of Central Asia. We are not in the business (at least most of us anyway) of claiming all of that, just we like to counter people that distort history for their own agenda.



So the Yuan dynasty must then also count as a cut, since it was imposed from people outside China. What came after cannot be linked to what was there before according to your logic. How Han did the Manchus of the Qing empire consider themselves to be either?

Even in Europe many still look beyond their individual identities to the various Empires that united many of the modern day countries found there....that created many cultural ties and bonds that still exist to this day. This is true of India as well....basically India inherited a "European Union" from the legacy of the British. We enjoy our diversity and it unites us. If it is alien to a mostly homogenous Han country like yours (which came about because of a very brutal tyrant)...that does not bother us.

Besides, a single uninterrupted political entity from ancient times is found nowhere in the Earth today....definitely not in countries the size of India and China. We call periods or rule as dynasties for that very reason.

Indians never had a sense of a national identity until British created it. Do you think that the subjects of Tipu sultan, Sihk empire or Maratha confederation regard themselves as citizens of an Indian nation or empire?

I like how you compare India to European Union though. Because in effect, India Union is an equivalent of European Union. The difference is that no outsiders ever colonized the countries of Western Europe and created one single political entity. Without British colonialism, India would consist of various countries, just like Western Europe today.

 

[Audio]

Very interesting thread.

How things would have turned differently perhaps if Greek influence stood the test of time (primarily the Huns).

 

[Nilgiri]

Indians never had a sense of a national identity until British created it.

And we have your word to go on that? Your knowledge of Indian history is extremely limited to some catchphrases.

Do you think that the subjects of Tipu sultan, Sihk empire or Maratha confederation regard themselves as citizens of an Indian nation or empire?

Yes if you read the poets, luminaries and thinkers of all these periods, they always wanted there to be a Bharatavarsh of peace and development.

The Mauryan empire and Gupta empires political and economic legacies were never forgotten...no matter which invaders and kings sought to expunge them from our collective memory. Chanakya works were studied closely and implemented by both the Marathas and Vijayangara empires...you think they forgot what once was when they were reading that?

The difference is that no outsiders ever colonized the countries of Western Europe and created one single political entity.

The Huns did for large massive areas of Europe. They were definitely outsiders, so much so that they pushed the Goths into Rome and caused its eventual downfall.

Did that suddenly mean there was a sudden break among Europeans with the cultural expanse of the Roman empire? A political entity may not have lasted (after Constantinople finally fell)....but its lingering effects are still felt today in language, political thought process and priorities, military organisation, government, law and philosophy.

There is much that unites people beyond just political heritage. Humans are not so weak and ignorant they forget altogether what their ancestors accomplished.

Thats why the Eastern parts of Europe still are majority Christian and identify as European even after such long rule by the Ottomans. Same goes for Spain and the Moors.

Without British colonialism, India would consist of various countries, just like Western Europe today.

That is a big hypothetical situation. If the Marathas pursued and finished off the British after defeating them in the first anglo-Maratha war (instead of giving them time and space to regroup)...India may very well have been united under Maratha stewardship to a large degree to this day. Who can say for sure? Certainly not someone not even from India, who has just read about India from some wikipedia articles and online forums.

What if Japan never declared war with the West and courted them and kept them on friendly terms...and continued to be ruling China today after defeating them (because lets face it that would be the end result). Does that suddenly mean that the Chinese political history is irrelevant....and that we would be talking about a modern indigenous united China in mere hypotheticals? Cultural links and history go way more than nationalistic interpretation of indigenous "continued" polity....which is just factually wrong.....and such cultural links have always been present in the Indian subcontinent since the ancient times, even before the Mauryans even. You are simply out of your depth when talking about this subject trust me.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Indians today regard British India as the boundary of the historical India.

The most word is regard. Historically that was never the boundry. Since the boundries kept moving as the states had their rise and fall.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Indica is the account of patliputra (present day india) the capital of indian empire,what it has to do with present day pakistan.You pakistanis can't even honor your own ancestors yet you are claiming the part of indo greek cultural heritage here.

Anything that is and was in mostly OUR BORDERS, we have the right to claim to. Indo-Greeks,Scythians,Parthians were all strangely in modern day Pakistan's borders.

What else? OP did not have the decency of saying Pakistan. Instead he just fabricated the title of this thread. Note the Persian inscription state clearly - Gandhara, Hindush, Arachosia and Gedrosia. This is approximate to Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Sindh and Balochistan. Satagydia was probably Punjab.

No where do the Persian inscription say "India". Rendering it as India is false transliteration. As in 2015 those provinces stated in the Persian inscription are Pakistan. I reiterate the Persian inscription read "Hindosh" which is Sindh.

This thread is typical Indian theft and fabrication of history. The statue and other artifacts are from Taxila area, which was central to Gandhara Kingdom and the Greek Kingdoms. Taxila - Sirkap (coloured in red line) with Greek ruins is on the outskirts of Pakistan's capital Islamabad and home of Pakistan's military Rawalpindi (coloured in green line)

Sirkap (Urdu: سر کپ‎) is the name of an archaeological site on the bank opposite to the city of Taxila, Punjab, Pakistan.


The city of Sirkap was built by the Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius and his son Stultus. after he invaded ancient India around 180 BC. Demetrius founded in the northern and northwestern modern Pakistan an Indo-Greek kingdom that was to last until around 10 BC. Sirkap is also said to have been rebuilt by king Menander I.

This is simply a case of people who have barely any history ( the Ganges India and Dravidian India have nothing in ancient times ) picking and choosing other peoples history from thousand miles away and just bracketing it as Indian.

If you want to be true to history why not rely on what the Persian inscriptions say. Then transliterating those names to 2015. We are not in the British Raj era. That came to end in 1947.

Just in case people's there is any ambiguity I have the map of Archeamenid Persia with differant satrapies. Over them I have indented the modern state of Pakistan in red line. It of course falls over the Persian satrapies of Hindosh, Arachosia, Gedrosia and Sattagydia.

Below is the map of Alexander's conquest overlaid on the modern world.

Below is route in red by Alexander through Pakistan. It is only for illustration purposes and does not follow the exact route however does give approximate idea. The green are significant points along the route through Pakistan. Hydaspes of course is the site of battle with Punjabi king Porus on the modern River Jhelum. Notice almost everything remains within Indus Basin/Pakistan.

Now I have no idea how the Indian's have dreamed up as all this happening in their Indian Republic. As can be seen India remains safely well east of all the action. This Indian delusion is equivalent of Pakistani's start dreaming they were behind Ancient Persia.

It must be understood that neither India or Pakistan as they are understood today existed. The names given in records like Hindosh have to be transliterated - This is where the Indian's put in grapes into the translieration converter and out comes pineapple.

Then they very deftly add on events in their Ganga so that it al becomes one huge aggregate which then is tagged as India - result they sit their with light shining out of their proverbial ...... !!!

Fact: Anything and everything in ancient times happened on the Indus basin. Transliterate that to 2015 and it is Pakistan.

Taxila Musuem - Pakistan just outside Islamabad. Most of the Greek inspired artifacts are kept here.

Plan of Sirkap, Pakistan

The real thing

Ps. The intention of all this distortion is to create the effect and perception that it was today's India that was home to these events in history.

No matter how much times your prove these Indians wrong; they will still not admit.

LOL, majority of these "cultural stuff" you speak of is Arab and Persian in origin, that includes your religion, language, food, etc. Please explain to me what religion did the "ancient pakistanis" follow? Was it Jainism? Hinduism? Bhuddism? All you claim is IVC this and IVC that, but the world knows who are the true inheritors. You gave all that up for contents of Arab Imperialism, my brother.

Where does American culture come from? Migrants (Europe,Latin America, Asia) Where does Pakistan culture come from? Migrants (Indo-Scythians, Indo-Parthians, Indo-Greeks, Central Asians, Persians, Indians) ; there is nothing wrong with that, it is what makes a country great. Our religion is Human in origin. Yes there was religious difference of people living in modern day Pakistan and modern day India; Modern day Pakistan mostly followed Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Animism and some local religions compared to India who were mostly Hindu. IVC isn't the only thing we have and if you were its inheritors it would be in your borders. Also, what Arab imperialism? Talking to you is like talking to a brain-washed hinduvati 6 year old.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Indica is the account of patliputra (present day india) the capital of indian empire,what it has to do with present day pakistan.You pakistanis can't even honor your own ancestors yet you are claiming the part of indo greek cultural heritage here.

Yes, we have no rights to Indo-greeks. It was an Indian empire as you can clearly see from the maps.

Indians today regard British India as the boundary of the historical India. And that Pakistan split off from India. Furthermore, India existed as a nation since Ancient time. This is a total fabrication of history.

Egypt and Sudan were ONE under British rule, but were partitioned after independence; are they ethnically,culturally and linguistically the same? NO; Does Sudan have the right to claim all of Egypt's heritage? NO and lastly India was never a nation; it was a collection of different nations (up to 50) who fought each other.

Modern India was united under Ram. many millennia before Greeks called this region India.

Fairytales dont count.

 

[faithfulguy]

Yes, we have no rights to Indo-greeks. It was an Indian empire as you can clearly see from the maps.

Egypt and Sudan were ONE under British rule, but were partitioned after independence; are they ethnically,culturally and linguistically the same? NO; Does Sudan have the right to claim all of Egypt's heritage? NO and lastly India was never a nation; it was a collection of different nations (up to 50) who fought each other.


Fairytales dont count.

I agree that it's a fairytailthat Indians believe India existed since ancient times. India was a geographical expression. It only became a political entity since British India. The first monarch of India is queen Victoria.