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CTC Sentinel July 2009 - Attacks on Pak Nuclear Sites?

What a silly argument about Pushtuns not being allowed to serve in strategic organizations. LOL, Pakistan is not 1960's America were blacks were segregated. Nor is it US in 2009, where Chinese-Americans are accused (wrongly in Dr Wen Ho Lee's case) of spying for China every year.

The author of the article and the thread starter simply does not realize how well integrated most Pushtuns are into Pakistani society. If anything, Pushtuns are over represented in our forces in all areas.

I'm just sick and tired of these simplistic arguments which lump all Pushtuns in Pakistan into one category. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
 
Yeah.

Can't speak for "lumping Pashtus" anywhere but can say that Mustafa Malik suggests about 75% of both your military and civil administration is Punjabi-

Pakistan: Can U.S. Policy Save The Day?-Middle East Policy Council Journal Summer 2009

"Approximately 75 percent of contemporary Pakistan's armed forces, and roughly an equal percentage of its central government bureaucracy, come from Punjab. The Punjabis rebuff complaints about their domination, claiming that since they are Pakistan's majority ethnic community (about 60 percent of the country's population), their leading role in national affairs is natural. In the old Pakistan, though, the Punjabis were a minority, but they stubbornly resisted the leadership of the East Pakistani Bengalis, the majority community. The main complaint against them concerns the constant use of their preponderance in the army and bureaucracy to impose dictatorships and promote Punjabi interests in other provinces."

Ahmad Faruqui says-

"However, it is the perception of its [Punjabi] dominance — demographic, economic, political and even linguistic — that triggers insecurities in the other provinces. Moreover, a disproportionately large share of federal spending appears to benefit the residents of Punjab."

Pakistan's Inter-Provincial Rivalries and Nat'l Security-PakistanLink December 2004

Am I to presume, therefore, that there is no Punjabi dominance in your nuclear security forces? If so, this would contradict all other aspects of your overall nat'l ethnic composition within other institutions. Most unusually too, given that we're discussing nuclear weapons here.

As near as I can tell, both Gilani and Quareshi come from a Multan legacy, Rehman Malik is from Sialkot, and Kiyani is a Rawalpindi army brat. Zardari and Sherry Rehman appear Sindhi with Ahmed Shuja Pasha an unknown to me. Four out of those seven would absolutely be Punjabi. Maybe more with Pasha an unknown (for now).

There's no flaming here, A.M. It takes "GUTS" to write Gregory and make your comments. Easier to shoot the messenger, eh, and permissable without links to support such indignation? For shame.

This collective group has so far denied the nuclear legacy of Wah until I threw it in their face. It's a "SECRET", don't you know?:rofl:

I suspect that Gregory is correct to include Wah as both a historical nuclear legacy location and, quite possibly (based on comments made here), a continuing active nuclear research facility. That, of course, doesn't even account for the other facilities mentioned.

Great professions of disdain for any hints of punjabi ethnocentrism, but where's the data? I've got mine which trumps the self-righteous indignation spewed here. My suspicion remains that Gregory is quite accurate to state that there's a preponderance of Punjabi officers leading your nuclear security forces AND your nuclear strike forces.

I hope that all of you can understand the difference between the two.

As to Page 4's scenario, let's read closely together-

"In the context of severe international pressure on the Pakistan Army—particularly by India or the United States22—the risk exists that Pakistan might be similarly incentivized to move to such a “coercive option.” This remains extremely unlikely in the present context, not least given the level of terrorist threat to the Pakistani state itself. Nevertheless, it forms a necessary strand of the calculus about the transfer of nuclear weapons to terrorist groups in Pakistan.23"

"...severe international pressure...particularly by India or the United States..." seems a qualifier. So too "...extremely unlikely in the present context...". Finally, Gregory notes that it constitutes a "...necessary STRAND..." in the "...calculus..." of the overall scenario.

Seems clear enough that he characterizes this as remote but tangible. Given the legacy of A.Q. Khan's network and the intersection of PAEC scientists Sultan Bashirrudin Mahmood and Chaudrey Abdul Majeed with Al Qaeda in 2000 we're not discussing an absolute immutable impossibility.

Your PRP system vetted these men right up to the transfer of nuclear technologies to rogue states and conferences with terrorist groups. What makes you so certain that your army remains beyond the pale?

Now take it up with Gregory...

...if you've the GUTS.

and please post a link or two now and again to substantiate your refutations...if you can. Any and all of you.

Thanks.:smitten:
 
yaro iss magroor ullu kay pathay say kyun magaz mari kar rahay ho ?
 
Can't speak for "lumping Pashtus" anywhere but can say that Mustafa Malik suggests about 75% of both your military and civil administration is Punjabi-
Don't be stupid dude.Pakistan population is 70% Punjabi so of course a lot of people will come from this ethnicity..Tell me when you get more then 50% Muslims in US Army or 50% Native Americans.US Army is predominately Christian why because America is predominately christian..Even though Soldiers are Punjabi..Pushtuns have reached top slots including Director General of ISI..Hell our last COAS General Musharraf who ruled Pakistan for more then 10 years was not a Punjabi.Don't tell me Joint Chief of Staff, DG ISI, Core Commandor, COAS and President are small posts..A more insightful fact is that out of the 11 chiefs of the army, four have been Pashtuns (Generals Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Gul Hasan Khan and Waheed Kakar), leading the institution for a total of 18 years (Dawn, October 13). Two of them imposed martial law and remained presidents of Pakistan. Ayub Khan, the first Pakistani commander-in-chief of the army, remained at the helm of affairs for eight years as army chief (1951-58) and an additional 11 years as head of the country (1958-69) (Dawn, October 13). Ayub Khan also promoted himself to field marshal in 1965 and is credited with developing the army into one of the most resourceful and powerful institutions in the country. If it is any indicator of his legacy, his hand-painted portrait can often be seen on the back of the trucks driving from one side of the country to the other—as the transport business overwhelming is in the hands of the Pashtuns..These are some popular Generals only i can list a lot more..Pashtuns comprise over 15.42% of Pakistan's population or 25.6 million people yet they have reached top spots..that should tell you something.
By the way Mr Muradk ex- PAF Pilot here who is respected by all Pakistanis here and was a very senior PAF Officer is also Pushtun.His father was a full General..1 of his brother died fighting for Pakistan.One of his brother retired as a General and both of his sons are in air force and commanding one of the finest squardon so there is no discrimination in Army.
and
The main complaint against them concerns the constant use of their preponderance in the army and bureaucracy to impose dictatorships and promote Punjabi interests in other provinces.
The author really needs to get his brain checked.The three dictators were actually not Punjabi (Ayub Khan- Pushtun- Yahya Khan- Pushtun- General Musharraf- Mohajir)...only 1 dictator was Punjabi (General Zia) and during his tenure all top spots were given to Pushtuns!and what exactly is promoting Punjabi Interest?So much bullshit...
 
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75%.

Stay around long enough in a country with 170 million and there'll always be an outlyer or two.

No biggie.

Punjabi pre-dominance is a recognized problem.

Why wouldn't they dominate your nuclear security forces? More to the point, how long did it take you to write that diatribe?

Use the time to post Gregory, fella. I'm eager to see what you guys know and what he knows.

Now don't YOU be stupid...

Dude.
 
This magazine has a series of articles. This particular issue has a preponderance of them relating to Pakistan.

Collectively, you focus on the ONE article that was sure to raise your hackles. Predictably, I suppose.

Central to this base concern about your nuclear arsenal that so frightens others is the responsibility and effectiveness of any socio-political order that would permit the encroachment of islamo-fascism into the cultural fabric of your country.

Why so? Could be the subterfuge with which this arsenal was raised over time? Perhaps the propensity of graft and corruption to prevail among 170 million people who possess the intellect to raise forth such a weapon? How about the parallel and unbridled growth of radical islamic institutions of elementary education in a country that offers little else to the general public since the Afghan-Soviet war?

Four-fold as I recall since about 1980.

Or the consequent rise of islamo-fascist insurgents within your western borders?

Were those taliban 60 miles from your country's capitol in April...in force? Weren't they patrolling a 4 km stretch of BUNER just the other day?

How can this be?

And you're armed with NUKES?

Those taliban up in Buner, btw...pashtu maybe? Did you read the article, Patriot?

If so, you'd properly know, Punjabi exclusivity or otherwise, the real concern lies with the propensity of these vetted nuclear security or other nuclear-related personne/elements to be of pashtu origin.

Can you guarantee the allegiance of a man who's kin may be held hostage to his compliance WRT certain "requests"? Hope so but I wouldn't were I you. Gregory suggests there's a certain reluctance to post an inordinate number of Pashtu ethnicities into these areas for fear of raising the liklihood of such manipulation...or misguided pseudo-religious behavior leading to something horrible.

Like a nuke in the hands of al Qaeda.

Anyway. I'll await the comments that anybody here with the courage to do so as written to Mr. Gregory and his responses...

...if you dare.:agree:
 
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Well the others have answered your query about punjabi majority.

Now coming to wah.I never denied that wah group does not exist.Every one knows it exists but his article is flawed as he does not know the exact location and making up facts by stating that the gate attacked belonged to nuke assembling facility.

What does the bombing of a school bus have to do with nukes.

Those bad scientists have been sifted out and we have a new NCA in place that has SPD. Such things can't happen again.Read more on SPD in other threads.

Now taking it up with Mr. Gregory, i would love to but i won't because while i may be able to counter his arguments but i would be spilling some more beans/information and i really do not want to do it as i really do not want to end up in some cell and damage the careers of my relatives.

You can always give a link to my posts to him.


Gregory suggests there's a certain reluctance to post an inordinate number of Pashtu ethnicities into these areas for fear of raising the liklihood of such manipulation...or misguided pseudo-religious behavior leading to something horrible.

Again assumptions without any facts. Did he work for the HR department?


BTW buner is not 60 miles away from islamabad,its way too far away. My village is 5-8 km away from buner.
 
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S-2, yes punjabi dominance is a recognized problem but its just limited to the bureaucracy & politics. As for the armed forces & nuclear apparatus, that doesn't counts. As for the COAS who were pashtun, there have been many other top ranking Lt Generals & Maj Generals who have been pushtun. Even in PAF also. Our army is based on merit not from where u r or what ur province is. Many pashtuns have risen to very high ranks even in the civil bureaucracy, we even had a non-dictator pashtun president.
Nearly all the top of the line military training establishments are in the pastun dominated areas, even the Punjab regimental Centre, is in a pashtun area. Our top most scientific & engineering institute is in pashtun area, many nuclear related assets have been now positioned in the same pashtun areas. We have a mixed army, the names of arms are just for identification purposes as in this part of the world that is how armed forces are made up of.

As for this article that u all guys are referring to is BS, reason being its by americans for their own propaganda purposes, these so called think tanks have their own purpose to supprt specific agendas, so they write biased opinions, by sitting in america they or u cant judge us. reality is something else and u & ur country puts its in another manner.

And last but not the least, just check ur own history how u have treated the blacks & the native red indians. I guess uptill the 50s & 60s, u hadn't given rights to the blacks. KKK kind of organizations are still there in ur country.
How many black generals u had before that or even now. Ur country is still possessed with the color thing even after hundreds of years of democracy & evolution, so why lecturing us ???? we just got independence 60 years ago, but we atleast better then u that we have a mixed army, where everyone has the opportunity to go up and become a general.

issues are there with us, but kindly correct urself then lecture us.

Checkout the link below and see wht ur country has done to & for us.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-chief-rapes-two-muslim-algerian-women-2.html
 
why are you people wasting time with this Yankee?

SINDH SARHAD PUNJAB BALOCHISTAN Monga tool yaoo oo yaoo de PAKISTAN.
PAKISTAN Pak saro sir zameen da, awalam pathan walda Pakistani dee diya pakhtoon
 
75%.

Stay around long enough in a country with 170 million and there'll always be an outlyer or two.

No biggie.

Punjabi pre-dominance is a recognized problem.

Why wouldn't they dominate your nuclear security forces? More to the point, how long did it take you to write that diatribe?

Use the time to post Gregory, fella. I'm eager to see what you guys know and what he knows.

Now don't YOU be stupid...

Dude.

S2,

Greogory and many dont know that punjabis in northern punjab belong to pushtoon tribes settled in punjab during nadar shah and sher shah suri era and in southern punjab majority is from balouch (kurd) tribes.

That is reason punjab have to ethnic problems, you cant say there is problem of punjabi dominance .

Majority PA officers belong to pustoon background inducted on basis capability and merit.
 
Gents,

The issue here is quite simple-

Find counter-vailing articles by sources that merit more credibility than you. Bring forth your professionals that can dissent his assertions as supporting arguments. Quote the personnel statistics that deny either Punjabi pre-eminence or assert Pashtu inclusion at a level commensurate with the general population-particularly, if possible in these positions of some sensitivity.

Question Gregory. You can do so politely, can't you? Why not? I've called out Tom Ricks of WAPO before and received a correction to one of his articles for the effort. Do so here and determine if this scholar and director of an institute focused on Pakistan actually knows more than you credit.

All of those suggestions would ADD to the discussion. None of your second-hand anecdotes tossed at me, OTOH, really matter or are especially relevant. Your "local" expertise has already been successfully punctured. Mian Asad's assertions about Wah bore the stark signs of dissemblance. "...the gate attacked..." was to the outer perimeter of a facility that's long been associated with the birthplace of your nuclear arsenal. What goes on somewhere inside there now is classified, generally, and certainly so WRT any nuclear-related research and/or development.

The issue surrounding the security of your nuclear weapons and underlying technical base is sensitive to Pakistanis and the reasons for such are myriad and complex. I know that.

Unfortunately, the consequences are equally sensitive to the rest of us. Your baby was brought into this world surreptiously. You've been accused of transferring nuclear information. Your scientists have participated in discussions with known terrorists. Your nuclear arsenal has been raised at the same time that islamo-fascism has emerged within your tribal/pashtu society in the west...where your arsenal is maintained. You've key leadership in your past that had a real affinity to some of these men...and there's reason to suspect that others of similar ilk may still inhabit your leadership in some capacity. Your experience managing such an arsenal is new.

I've noted the comments about America's own arsenal. If anything, the recent incident shows that anybody is vulnerable to mistakes- including us. We know that and our reaction confirms the seriousness with which these mistakes are viewed.

As they should be.

Remember, though, that we maintained a MASSIVE arsenal since 1945. Since 1955, we've had bombers ARMED with mated weapons at failsafe stations 24/7 365 days a year until about 1990. Our submarines have patrolled in firing stations since the early sixties with ARMED missiles in their silos-every single day. Our land-based ICBMs were in their silos ARMED- every single day since we developed TITAN in the early sixties.

Nothing happened...except accidents. Not many but how many do you need.

You, though, aside from all that I've mentioned above have an active war now being fought with these very men for whom so many of us fear might seize a nuclear-armed state, much less their weapons.

Until April we were uncertain if you all weren't collectively asleep at the wheel. We're still unsure to what extent you are on-board with eradicating all of these scum. "Good"..."bad"...you know.

So find your articles or write Gregory-nicely- and have a chat. Post the comments here. I'll certainly learn more. Maybe him and you too.

Thanks.

P.S.- Bill, remember that this is an english board please. I think that's the rule, IIRC.:)
 
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