Countering the Unethical reporting. Distortion of facts by Talibanized Media

[FaujHistorian]

I don't think South Asians value truth very highly. Personal or political agendas are more important: facts are presented - or even invented - only to reinforce these, while facts that don't support such agendas are ignored, shouted out, or unjustly denounced.

This is not an original observation. I accept as an authority on the subject centenarian historian Bernard Lewis. He's schooled historians worldwide for three generations and occasionally meets his "grandchildren" and mentions this characteristic in his autobiography Notes on a Century: Reflections of a Middle East Historian.

The casual dismissal of truth by Pakistanis is reinforced by personal accounts like this one:

My experience as a youth ambassador made me more tolerant, understanding and mature. Ironically, even my perception of Islam enhanced while residing in a non-Islamic country. Earlier, I used to believe that bowing down to God five times a day had far greater value than telling the truth all the time. But now I understand that telling the truth is an act of worship.

Well said!

We in Pakistan are drinking from the same koolaid (or the good ole British-Indian punch) that is a mixture of Islamism with Marxist massalah. Ethnic chauvinism is also added for "flavor" and to keep this damn koolaid as boiling hot.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I don't think South Asians value truth very highly. Personal or political agendas are more important: facts are presented - or even invented - only to reinforce these, while facts that don't support such agendas are ignored, shouted out, or unjustly denounced.

@Solomon2 I value your comments thank you
I must confess I had to read twice to understand fully. I mistook it for lying. which I believe is a universal trait of human beings when ends justify the means then governments and leaders lie to their public to sell their wars and their ideas.

you are pointing at our tendency to Denny the truth. but I see a reason behind it. some times the truth is too simple and boring and non-sensational. In another part of South east Asia (once upon a time called East Pakistan) there is a wide belief that 90, 00 Pakistani army managed to rape AND killed 3 Million people on one hand and also 3 Million Bengali women. the belief is so strong that it is commonly shared and I wonder at the super human abilities of these 90K soldiers who managed to achieve that, in my view even a single rape and a single murder of an innocent is condemnable so I wont justify the war crimes here but I just wonder if the number had been more realistic and not super natural, it might not have sold that well.

A similar claim is also made against the SSG team of less than a platoon size that conducted the Red Mosque operation and it is claimed that over 1000 children and women were killed by them and some obnoxious people go as far as claiming that over 1500 girls there were raped too. Faluja burnt out corpses are also used for good measure as well to demonise our military just in case anyone is not so sure.




in the current times, I was pointing at collective amnesia we are suffering as well.. where some of the opponents of military response to the terrorists have completely disregarded the recent carnage from the taliban across Pakistan and are instead at pains to crucify the military for its new new powers and possible military strike on North Waziristan which you guys have been demanding for past 10 years

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Is it not we can do any kind of legislation to prevent such a kind of baseless propaganda on the media? Is it not any law to question such kind of so called free journalists about their poison that they are putting in the minds of people? Is it not any way to questioning the credentials of these journalists their so called source? And what after they have been proven liar after a time? I thing we need law and control to stop this bullshit like law for terrorists who caught read handed in operations and get easy bails from the courts.

the nations who value their freedom and and ideology and are not confused among friends and foes treat such people as spies and traitors.
such people in such extra-ordinary situations of war are executed immediately and are not termed as heroes and no trains are named after them and the soldiers who conduct operations against the terrorists dont face treason charges.

Yes I am not talking about Pakistan. here the concept of shaheed is pretty much messed up.
and the justice means that a failed suicide bomber has to be set free even if he is caught with the suicide vest because according to Chief Justice Iftikhar Choudhary and his ilk, one can be only punished for terrorism once he explodes himself.

if such is the level justice then say the prayers for Pakistan.

 

[BATMAN]

@Irfan Baloch I'm with you, yet i have not seen what you have referred. but i believe you and need not to waste my time.
I certainly have same opinion about media as you do, and my opinion you asked about Orya..... i think he is another one of those idiots, who does not realize that from where he is sitting, cannot possibly have true picture of affairs and thus cannot see the broader picture.
He does not realized that, US is trolling with such people. They do not see our army is fighting on many fronts, which they do not see.
Whole world is playing games with Pak army, our army is tied up with irritants like ImRAWn Khan, Asma Jehangir, cheap justice, PPP, ANP, etc. etc. in the end they are acting as strategic partners of enemies of Pakistan.
I do not know much about all of the media men, but i must mention, my favorite so far is Talata Hussain, as he never disappointed me and he is very careful in his POV and most of above he seems a patriotic soul.
It is upsetting to hear such BS at times, but i think on ground we have motion, where our focus should be. IMO, we should get hands on every brand of idiot terrorist and interrogate them extensively and try to figure out what's going on.
Just pay little attention to these irritants, i hope to see more action, in coming days. While, I rest my trust in army and Allah's help in there every step.

now I understand that telling the truth is an act of worship.

Telling lie in Islam, can amount to making partner with Allah, and Allah is better judge.

 

[BATMAN]

Sir, You have highlighted very critical issue as in today's age, major portion of war is won through media not the guns, and i agree that ISPR is proved to be grossly incompetent on this front, they must wake up and smell coffee, they need to work day & night to counter and expose propaganda rather than fulfilling formality of doing occasional press releases, I don't think our corrupt & sell out parliamentarian and judiciary who can be blackmailed easily will ever go against media, nor they are gonna make PERMA an effective & independent institution.

Yes, i expected much more from ISPR but earlier, in presence of cheap justice and lying media, you can imagine the tough situation.
At times, ISPR had made reality check by passing hard intelligence to Gilani and when it didn't worked, they briefed in assembly and in the end Pasha had to go and all terrorists got released.
Fazlula fagot and the attacker of Musharraf and thousands more got declared non guilty and every lawyer kept mum.
Now, staged trial of Musharraf is only to hint army not to cross lines, but i heard army is standing solid.
I have heard stories, of big drama being unfolded in the field of energy exploration and development sector and electricity production.
All is being blocked by the previous govt. and now the current govt. is continuing and all politicians are watching suggest some thing which army already know, in the end its a multiple front war and army cannot make people believe that every political head is working against national interest and they are all running big show for the much trumpeted democracy.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@Solomon2........you are pointing at our tendency to Denny the truth. but I see a reason behind it. some times the truth is too simple and boring and non-sensational.....

Pakistan army has consistently stood for the American system in its global outlook.

This has been 180 degrees from Pakistani-Marxist-socialist POV.

This is why Marxist cannot accept a straightforward /simple view of Pak army
----- Marxist dominated media and civilian elite has spun conspiracy tales from 1950s till today.


Mix in this the Pan-Islamism. That too (apart from dying days of commies) has been opposite to USA/West's global view.
Islamists too must mix religion and Islam to explain everything in this world.

That puts them too at odds with Pak army.

And thus Islamists too have spun their version of conspiracy theories that are not too different from the global conspiracy theories against Jews and Christians and USA.


Hope this explains the fundamental mental mechanism of why majority of pakistani educated elite (civilians) are confused. This doesn't help when Islamists retired generals like Hameed Gul add more conspiracies in the mix.


Sadly

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hamid Mir needs to GO.
Mullahs need to be domesticated or else be put to sleep.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@
Just pay little attention to these irritants, i hope to see more action, in coming days. While, I rest my trust in army and Allah's help in there every step.

thanks mate, just let me share something good with you. my cousin has just returned back today from the front-lines back to his base and he was out with his unit to do some taliban killing. he reported our PAF jets talking the language TTP understands.
he has witnessed the bombings himself.
I have requested him to get some battle footage and share with us (whatever is allowed and cleared by his CO and the intelligence officer of course)

I told him, that "no pressure" but we are counting on you to teach these scum a good lesson. he praised the support on the forum so all of you guys , our armymen thank you for your support.
this fight is happening on ground, on airwaves and on the web.


Talat Hussain has established himself as a mature and level headed presenter and yes I welcome his patriotism something sadly which is not a given when it comes to some media personalities
I must add Amir Ghori too, although his area is totally different but I like his very serious demur and presentation.


Godspeed

Pak Fouj Zindabad
Pakistan Paindabad

 

[Solomon2]

Solomon2...you are pointing at our tendency to Denny the truth. but I see a reason behind it. some times the truth is too simple and boring and non-sensational. In another part of South east Asia (once upon a time called East Pakistan) there is a wide belief that 90, 00 Pakistani army managed to rape AND killed 3 Million people on one hand and also 3 Million Bengali women. the belief is so strong that it is commonly shared and I wonder at the super human abilities of these 90K soldiers who managed to achieve that, in my view even a single rape and a single murder of an innocent is condemnable so I wont justify the war crimes here but I just wonder if the number had been more realistic and not super natural, it might not have sold that well.

Excuse me. In 1971 my neighbors were Pakistani diplomats. They knew what the Pakistani Army's orders were: to deliberately rape and kill the innocent, not just kill those known to be political activists. They knew that the Army was being manipulated by the teeth of its oath - to keep Pakistan whole - to subdue E. Pakistan through both occupation and unconscionable acts that would never reach a court of law; only then would the Bangladeshis realize the futility of their efforts. These diplomats took an emotionally wrenching step and broke their oath of loyalty to the State to help the nascent Bangladesh. As one put it, "Whatever Pakistan was supposed to be, it's not this!"

According to the Pakistani journalists who lived through the period, the public atmosphere in W. Pakistan portrayed the East Pakistanis as thinly-disguised Indians. The hate in the air was absolutely venomous. A W. Pakistani soldier instilled with it would likely overcome any moral limits he may have had to carry out horrible orders.

I don't doubt that your number of six million is something of an exaggeration.

What isn't in doubt is that many Pakistani veterans of the 1971 war committed war crimes and were never held to account for it. For the post-WWII Nuremberg Trials established that a soldier may never use the excuse he was only following orders when committing acts considered criminal under international law.

Such people welcome the "collective amnesia" Pakistan is suffering. And they want to protect their legacy as long as possible through mis-education and misdirection. You may not notice this wound in your soul, but I assure you it is there and you are suffering for it.

 

[BATMAN]

@Irfan Baloch i wish your brother and other army men all the success in fighting the evil, keep bringing us the good news.
One thing which keep bothering me is that, they may cross the border and be safe!

 

[khair_ctg]

Excuse me. In 1971 my neighbors were Pakistani diplomats. They knew what the Pakistani Army's orders were: to deliberately rape and kill the innocent, not just kill those known to be political activists. They knew that the Army was being manipulated by the teeth of its oath - to keep Pakistan whole - to subdue E. Pakistan through both occupation and unconscionable acts that would never reach a court of law; only then would the Bangladeshis realize the futility of their efforts. These diplomats took an emotionally wrenching step and broke their oath of loyalty to the State to help the nascent Bangladesh. As one put it, "Whatever Pakistan was supposed to be, it's not this!"

According to the Pakistani journalists who lived through the period, the public atmosphere in W. Pakistan portrayed the East Pakistanis as thinly-disguised Indians. The hate in the air was absolutely venomous. A W. Pakistani soldier instilled with it would likely overcome any moral limits he may have had to carry out horrible orders.

I don't doubt that your number of six million is something of an exaggeration.

What isn't in doubt is that many Pakistani veterans of the 1971 war committed war crimes and were never held to account for it. For the post-WWII Nuremberg Trials established that a soldier may never use the excuse he was only following orders when committing acts considered criminal under international law.

Such people welcome the "collective amnesia" Pakistan is suffering. And they want to protect their legacy as long as possible through mis-education and misdirection. You may not notice this wound in your soul, but I assure you it is there and you are suffering for it.

West Pakistani military had the right goal but the wrong execution. the military itself was the government. the military started operations in East Pakistan to maximize military efficiency. it was in line with this that Bengali personnel, some decorated veterans from previous wars with India, were disarmed and excluded from the operations in East Pakistan. what such actions did was compromise the very sovereignty and future of East Pakistan to an enemy (India)that never accepted the existence or progress of its Muslim neighbours. there was no shortage of East Pakistanis who would pay a heavy toll to stop India's transgression. unfortunately neither could some of those same people steer clear of misinformation spewed mostly by Hindus who were against the very creation of united Pakistan who had better knowledge of the Bengali Muslims more than the latter had of themselves. war crimes happened in isolated cases even if anti-United Pakistan people have tried to inflate them to 'spice it up' in vain. and to say the least, atrocities committed by Bengalis armed by India on other Bengalis and Non-Bengalis who supported United Pakistan to varying degrees, and even among those pro-India Bengalis, is no less than war crimes committed by West Pakistanis in isolated cases. even among those Bengalis fighting their government, their understanding of the implication of a defenceless unstable East Pakistan was clouded in the rush of battle. a lot of that understanding did occur to them but it was too late in a few years already post 1971

Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971 | Natun Dhaka Digest

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Solomon2 @khair_ctg thanks for your contribution, I would like to keep the discussion strictly Pakistan in its current war on terror
and the use of media/ propaganda by the anti Pakistani side to present TTP as some holy warriors and justifying their every action due to drone strikes, American invasion and Pakistan army collaboration with Americans.

 

[Solomon2]

@Solomon2 @khair_ctg thanks for your contribution, I would like to keep the discussion strictly Pakistan in its current war on terror

It is. I'm showing part of the record, the Pakistan Army's history of endorsing or committing terror. Propaganda ops are part of that. The constant low-level conflict doesn't risk the armed forces like regular war does, yet nevertheless serves to keep the Army on top of the heap.

Your problem, I.B., is that you want to believe the Army is an honorable and praiseworthy institution. You don't want to let go of the lies crammed into your head in school, or from experience in the service. Certainly the soldiers who committed war crimes in 1971 honored their oath; nevertheless, doing so was criminal. And the sort of praise such an Army merits is very faint indeed.

From Day One of Pakistan its WWII ex-Indian (Muslim) Army was keen to employ the guerrilla techniques it learned in Burma operations. While its British commanding officers had orders not to engage in conflict with the Indian Army, Jinnah figured out a way around that by whipping up anti-Indian sentiment among the populace to promote massacres and set the stage for sending savage armed tribals to the border to do what the P.A. initially would not do.

I doubt Jinnah intended to let the Army beon top; but the man didn't have much time left. His right-hand man was assassinated soon after Jinnah died; only very mediocre and fractious civilian leadership remained, while the Army - now trained and supplied by the Americans who were alienated from India by Nehru - shone out as the most competent institution in the country. The politicians yielded power to the military before holding a nationwide election or neutering the trouble-causing tribals - and so the stage was set for later violent fractures among religious and ethnic lines.

...the use of media/ propaganda by the anti Pakistani side to present TTP as some holy warriors and justifying their every action due to drone strikes, American invasion and Pakistan army collaboration with Americans.

Umm, I don't get what the "anti-Pakistan" side is here. As for "American invasion", nothing stops Pakistan from taking American involvement in the W.O.T. in the same constructive fashion that the Yemenis do, save the dynamic Pakistanis have fallen into of blaming America for everything wrong and demanding more power and money in return.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......From Day One of Pakistan its WWII ex-Indian (Muslim) Army was keen to employ the guerrilla techniques it learned in Burma operations. While its British commanding officers had orders not to engage in conflict with the Indian Army, Jinnah figured out a way around that by whipping up anti-Indian sentiment among the populace to promote massacres and set the stage for sending savage armed tribals to the border to do what the P.A. initially would not do. .

Didn't expect that you will write this garbage Solomon

Didn't expect

you will be so ignorant about our history and yet so arrogant.

What you say flies in the face of what Gen Gracey COAS and Brigadier Francis Ingall the first CnC of Kakul.

But then you must have gotten all this grand historical knowledge from your neighbors aka diplorats. hahahaha

 

[khair_ctg]

It is. I'm showing part of the record, the Pakistan Army's history of endorsing or committing terror. Propaganda ops are part of that. The constant low-level conflict doesn't risk the armed forces like regular war does, yet nevertheless serves to keep the Army on top of the heap.

Your problem, I.B., is that you want to believe the Army is an honorable and praiseworthy institution. You don't want to let go of the lies crammed into your head in school, or from experience in the service. Certainly the soldiers who committed war crimes in 1971 honored their oath; nevertheless, doing so was criminal. And the sort of praise such an Army merits is very faint indeed.

From Day One of Pakistan its WWII ex-Indian (Muslim) Army was keen to employ the guerrilla techniques it learned in Burma operations. While its British commanding officers had orders not to engage in conflict with the Indian Army, Jinnah figured out a way around that by whipping up anti-Indian sentiment among the populace to promote massacres and set the stage for sending savage armed tribals to the border to do what the P.A. initially would not do.

I doubt Jinnah intended to let the Army beon top; but the man didn't have much time left. His right-hand man was assassinated soon after Jinnah died; only very mediocre and fractious civilian leadership remained, while the Army - now trained and supplied by the Americans who were alienated from India by Nehru - shone out as the most competent institution in the country. The politicians yielded power to the military before holding a nationwide election or neutering the trouble-causing tribals - and so the stage was set for later violent fractures among religious and ethnic lines.

Umm, I don't get what the "anti-Pakistan" side is here. As for "American invasion", nothing stops Pakistan from taking American involvement in the W.O.T. in the same constructive fashion that the Yemenis do, save the dynamic Pakistanis have fallen into of blaming America for everything wrong and demanding more power and money in return.

you should elaborate on what crimes you think members of the Army committed in 1971 (because of my background i'm interested to know if it's anything but those Indian-manufactured mythical figures), then one can tell what kind of data was crammed into your head