Counter-Ideology: Unanswered Questions and the Case of Pakistan

[Valiant_Soul]

Yes he he can and there is no bar on him or her as far as Islam is concerned.

Islam gives you the freedom if you wana leave it you can there is no punishment for that in Islam.

Thanks for the response, it was a long wait.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

The ideology behind present day terrorism is that Islam is a political system and that it is the duty of all Muslims to establish the political rule of Islam in the world. This kind of thinking was not prevalent during the time of the Prophet Muhammad or his early companions. It is a later innovation. This was developed over the last few centuries by a handful of people and has become widespread in the Muslim world today. This has led to the present-day violence.

I do not think all Muslims agree with this. Watch the following videos.

I suppose either the Quran has two opinions in different verses about an issue or the mullahs do not interpret it correctly for the people.

 

[bigmoneymaker]

Yes he he can and there is no bar on him or her as far as Islam is concerned.

Islam gives you the freedom if you wana leave it you can there is no punishment for that in Islam.

jana, things are not like what you imagined when it is truly carried out.....the people who want to rule through religious influence are still there....example is the malays who are born in malaysia must participate islam since their ethnicity has decided their fates...all malays with high fertility rate will only increase in number and finally kick out other ethnics religious rights with their majority rules theory...malaysia is not the original place for malays, they are coming from indonesia which speak the almost same language as indonesia but one is influenced by british words and another is influenced by dutch incoming foreign words......malaysia belongs to all people living on this peaceful ground but the policy makers want to maintain their status they utilise religious constraints on the people....i am glad i am not a malay so i have chance to speak to you here, normally malay dont even care their muslims brethens in chaos, they started to learn arabic in seeing the oil rich arabs with same islam background...so dont you think everyone is just using islam for self gain, so sorry for your naive thinking that ones can freely enter or exit islam......buddhism and taoism dont care whether the people come to pray for them regularly, they still exist there for our psychological support and their nonviolence teaching will still remain, that is why i would definitely love them for their true benevolence........ true religion doesnt need worships daily, they will come to our rescue if we are really worth saving......if you every day gets obsessed with religious issues how can you work well using sensible minds to improve your life and develop country....thats it.......

 

[Valiant_Soul]

This is another thought provoking video that you should watch.

In this context, I want to ask whether it is possible for Muslims to become moderate and remain moderate. I am quite confused on this topic because it is hard to say as to where the allegiance of a Muslim lies, in his country or in his Holy book, and whether they are decisive about this.

I have admiration for people who think like the great king Akbar, i.e., who do not believe in forceful subjugation of others to one's own faith. I know in India, Muslim thinking is akin to this kind of opinion and also the Sufi tradition. However, I am confused on the topic of allegiance of Muslims because it seems Quran teaches forceful subjugation of others to Islam.

 

[aakalim]

This is another thought provoking video that you should watch.

IvUyRecphg0[/media] - Is Islam Intrinsically Violent? - Robert Spencer on FOX


In this context, I want to ask whether it is possible for Muslims to become moderate and remain moderate. I am quite confused on this topic because it is hard to say as to where the allegiance of a Muslim lies, in his country or in his Holy book, and whether they are decisive about this.

I have admiration for people who think like the great king Akbar, i.e., who do not believe in forceful subjugation of others to one's own faith. I know in India, Muslim thinking is akin to this kind of opinion and also the Sufi tradition. However, I am confused on the topic of allegiance of Muslims because it seems Quran teaches forceful subjugation of others to Islam.

Brother taking FOX news as a source of information on Islam and Muslims is not a good idea.

Nowhere does the Quran teaches its followers to forcefully subjugate other into Islam. On the contrary it says that there is no compulsion in religion. The quran was revealed in a particular context and unless we understand it in its true context, we are bound to be misled.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Brother taking FOX news as a source of information on Islam and Muslims is not a good idea.

Nowhere does the Quran teaches its followers to forcefully subjugate other into Islam. On the contrary it says that there is no compulsion in religion. The quran was revealed in a particular context and unless we understand it in its true context, we are bound to be misled.

If you believe in this and you think that this is the general opinion among the Muslims, then I am very glad to know your opinion and I thank you for this clarification.

 

[Spring Onion]

This is another thought provoking video that you should watch.

IvUyRecphg0[/media] - Is Islam Intrinsically Violent? - Robert Spencer on FOX


In this context, I want to ask whether it is possible for Muslims to become moderate and remain moderate. I am quite confused on this topic because it is hard to say as to where the allegiance of a Muslim lies, in his country or in his Holy book, and whether they are decisive about this.

I have admiration for people who think like the great king Akbar, i.e., who do not believe in forceful subjugation of others to one's own faith. I know in India, Muslim thinking is akin to this kind of opinion and also the Sufi tradition. However, I am confused on the topic of allegiance of Muslims because it seems Quran teaches forceful subjugation of others to Islam.

Although you are lying sugar-coatedly about Quran and Islam.

But let me know what do you mean by a moderate??

Our religion is moderate in itself. Quran does not teach forceful subjugation.

The preaching or Tabligh has always been peacful. The expansionanist movements by different Muslim rulers were merely expansionanist movements and not preaching of Islam.

On the other hand there are many such wars and violence described in many epics and scriptures.

 

[EjazR]

I do not think all Muslims agree with this. Watch the following videos.

First of all we are discussing a counter-ideology for the perverted ideology that has caused these problems. Muslims have been by far more affected by this ideology that non-muslims and that is why my post said that this is particularly for muslims. Groups led by the ideology to establish an "Islamic state" have done far more damage and killings in muslim countries than they have to non-muslims. Ironically, it was the western countries that strengthened these same fringe forces as a counter to Communism; training them, providing with financial support and giving asylum to their leaders in UK France and the US when arab countries pronounced death sentences on them for spreading strife and violence.

Now MEMRI is a known Israeli lobby organization, although they call themselves Middles east institute, they have never, not even once as far as I know posted the many hate articles textbooks and speeches by Israeli government officials or in Israeli schools when there are 1000s of examples and even more so these days that are reported in Israeli newspapers like Haaretz for example. So its completely partisan and actually twists and even has completely false reporting as well. More so when neither of the two woman claim themselves to be muslims, then how can they present an accurate picture. There are problems with muslims today but its not what these propaganda mouth pieces are talking about. And no "they" don't hate America for their "Freedom". That should have been enough for an intelligent person to put Noonie's credibility about her understanding of geo-politics down the drain.

And if you are gullible enough to believe that these people who have no knowledge of Quran or Hadith are actually talking the truth about Islam then I might be able to sell you the Taj Mahal at a very reasonable price. I suggest you read books by knowledgeable authors like "Al Qaeda: by Jason Burke" for example if you want to know correct information,

The best thing is why not read the Quran for yourself. Because people who do have completely different opinion by these people (and many others) who indulge in Islam bashing to get better TRP ratings and back patting. Intelligent people can see otherwise. And I don't even need to talk about Fox news. You should have seen their segment on India bashing (it was about how they are taking away "our" jobs) to realize how vile they can get. This is not "muslim opinion" This is the opinion of majority of the intelligent people around the world including Barack Obama's opinion as well.

A recent example is Ram Jethmalini who said that he has critically read the Quran and studied the life of the Prophet and he found nothing that could result in the violent ideology of Al Qaeda. Yvonne Ridley is another example of a British woman who converted to Islam on her reading of the Quran after being arrested by the Taliban who doesn't feel women are at all supressed if the true Islamic teachings are followed.
Yvonne Ridley's Blog

All religion teach universal values of compassion and mercy including Islam. Common sense dictates that a person who has spent his life studying the Quran and Hadith (the Maulana in this case) will be way more knowledgeable that these people on what is the root cause of this ideology that makes AQ e.t.c. tick.


Back to topic:
IMO the greatest damage to Islam, has come from the muslims themselves who left the original teachings of Islam. Like Maulana Wahiduddin mentioned "The ideology behind present day terrorism is that Islam is a political system and that it is the duty of all Muslims to establish the political rule of Islam in the world". It was unfortunately the muslims who started this(albeit a fringe minority who were empowered by the fight against Communism by western and muslim countries) and it will have to be the muslims who will have to get rid of this ideology eventually.

If you had actually read through his entire speech you would have got a better perspective on what Islam teaches from an Islamic scholar's point of view and not from propaganda mouthpieces aimed at the right wing western audience.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Like Maulana Wahiduddin mentioned "The ideology behind present day terrorism is that Islam is a political system and that it is the duty of all Muslims to establish the political rule of Islam in the world".

There are differences in opinion about this. The constitution of Saudi Arabia is just the Quran and Sunnah, is it not? So, Islam is being regarded as a political system.

In Christianity on the other hand, there is a built-in secularism (at least in theory, if not in practice). “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

 

[MilesTogo]

threads like these should be made exclusive for muslims. non-muslims have zero role to play here.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

And if you are gullible enough to believe that these people who have no knowledge of Quran or Hadith are actually talking the truth about Islam then I might be able to sell you the Taj Mahal at a very reasonable price. I suggest you read books by knowledgeable authors like "Al Qaeda: by Jason Burke" for example if you want to know correct information,

The best thing is why not read the Quran for yourself. Because people who do have completely different opinion by these people (and many others) who indulge in Islam bashing to get better TRP ratings and back patting. Intelligent people can see otherwise. And I don't even need to talk about Fox news. You should have seen their segment on India bashing (it was about how they are taking away "our" jobs) to realize how vile they can get. This is not "muslim opinion" This is the opinion of majority of the intelligent people around the world including Barack Obama's opinion as well.

Well, I would really like to take all your arguments on face value and I hope what you are saying is true, however, I do not think these people are unintelligent or ignorant or are critical of Islam for some personal benefit. It is hard to disregard their opinion knowing their history and/or their works.

Although I do not want to disregard your opinion either. In that sense, I suppose Muslims in different parts of the world are being educated in radical ways - some are taught to be peaceful while others are taught to be not. As I said in my earlier post - "If you believe in this and you think that this is the general opinion among the Muslims, then I am very glad to know your opinion and I thank you for this clarification."

More so when neither of the two woman claim themselves to be muslims, then how can they present an accurate picture.

They were Muslims, but then they renounced Islam.

 

[pagans]

Sufism is a product of Hinduism influence on Islam. As we can see Sufism is fast losing itself to the more orthodox Islamic schools. Future of Sufism is bleak.

 

[EjazR]

Sufism is a product of Hinduism influence on Islam. As we can see Sufism is fast losing itself to the more orthodox Islamic schools. Future of Sufism is bleak.

I think you are confusing two aspects that are associated with sufism. The correct word is tasawwuf by the way.

Just going to graves of the saints and asking them is not sufism. The wahabbi sect wrongly associates sufism with just this and decalres this as against Islam. Hence the conflict with some salafi/wahabbi sects.

Although visiting saints graves and paying homage is not prohibited in Islam either.Millions of muslims go to pay homage to the tombs of the prophet and his companions in Medinah for example after Haj.

Tasawuff can be vaguely defined to the focus on imprving the inner self though the remembrance of God and pondering over his creation. Wikipedia actually has a good writeup on this if you want more info

Sufism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EjazR]

@Halaku
And I'm sure you know how many people consider Saudi Arabia to be a truly following the principles of Islam. There they have tribal cultural practices being clubbed as Islam such as women not allowed to drive cars e.t.c. You must realise that only four decades ago there was no oil in Saudi Arabia and pilgrims coming to Saudi Arabia actually donated money to them to help them survive. They have had to undergo rapid transformation that takes societies 100s of years in a span of just 4 decades.

Moreover, the autocratic rulers to legitimise their rule always used Islam to do so. This has unfortunately become a easy practice around the muslim world. If you are corrupt and unpopular with your people. Declare that I will follow Islam and the Quran and fool them. However, this is fast losing its old ability now. I suggest give a few years to Saudi Arabia under King Abdulla's leadership, he is much more progressive and is not burdened by the "political Islamist" ulema that had the upper hand in the kingdom pre 9/11.

@Valiant_soul
I don't expect you to just accept my arguments at face value ofcourse. And I would expect that you don't accept the arguments of those you linked at face value either. Like I mentioned my posts in this thread is primarily for a muslim audience so I can understand when non-muslims might not understand the intricacies of whats being argued here.

However, you will get a better appreciation if you go the extra mile to try to understand what is happening because the world is not black and white as some people might want us to believe, its shades of grey.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Although you are lying sugar-coatedly about Quran and Islam.

But let me know what do you mean by a moderate??

Our religion is moderate in itself. Quran does not teach forceful subjugation.

The preaching or Tabligh has always been peacful. The expansionanist movements by different Muslim rulers were merely expansionanist movements and not preaching of Islam.

On the other hand there are many such wars and violence described in many epics and scriptures.

Lying? No I do not lie, not over such critical issues. I express what I observe. I have not come to this point about Islam all by myself - I see the opinion of various people. Here are more videos of more people talking about their version of Muslims that they think are not moderates.