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Confirmation required: BAF to loan one squadron of J-10A.

Thank you.

Then why are Indian members saying 'Good news for IA'??

Just to mess with you guys!!!! honestly in this day and age instead of buying stuff directly from the source, it might be a healthy option to have had head to head trials,China is the only operator for j10, and there are no clear indications of it's serviceability. I am not aware of what the requirements of BAf is and it's operating budget is, If BAF is looking to gear up for marine role, it must look into twin engine aircraft, Mig 29K included as russia's Mig29K line is in production right now. Another contender could have been upgraded excess defence article program of the US for F16's, extremely potent multirole fighters with probably the best serviceability and safety record. Then there are avenues to also buy Su30 series aircraft with the advantage of additional upgrades or services that can be sourced from China, India, Indonesia, etc, and last but not the least is the M2000K reconditioned fleet from UAE that will go on sale shortly. There are quite a few options for BAF to explore
 
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I doubt it'll ever happen..if we review Aircraft purchase by both Bangladesh and Mayanmar,both country is preferring Russian Aircraft over Chinese Aircraft.Mayanmar chose Mig-29 SMT over J-10.now,if any malpractice hasn't happened,J-10 is inferior in some terms than Mig-29 SMT,which BD already uses..but hell,even Mig-29 isn't so called preferred aircraft,which is overpriced and a 30-40 years old fighter.if that can win Mig-29 SMT,then I think J-10 is not so great what some guys think it is..


anyway,dig out an old article on J-10's first overseas loss....



On 23rd December 2009 a significant event took place which sadly went under reported. When inane drivel were making its way to the news, the event which established the superiority of a fighter over another went largely unnoticed. It was on that very day the first news regarding results of a competition came out in the open. The Myanmar Air force(Tatmadaw Lei) chose the MiG-29SMT Fulcrum over the much hyped China's J-10, and its smaller cousin which was rejected by China itself- the JF-17 Thunder.

This competition was like no other. On one hand the fulcrum was facing setbacks everywhere. First it was in Malaysia where due to endemic corruption and the interference of Middle men, the spares for the MiG-29s were ridiculously over priced by the time it reached the end user. This prompted Malaysia to retire its MiG-29s prematurely. The second setback was on the Algerian front, where another corruption involving Russian middle men lead to sourcing inferior parts for upgrading the MiG-29s. This lead Algeria to cancel the order, which left the Russians in deep soul searching. Just recently the middle men were arrested and criminal cases initiated against them. There were also wild rumors of Myanmar's MiG-29s being grounded due to poor after sales service(which got proved wrong). Plus SMT Fulcrums are basically mothballed MiG-29S fresh out of factory(during the 1990s but never got inducted into the Russian Air Force because of the poor economic condition of Russia) and is re-sold with SMT upgrades to various countries. The Chinese fighters on the other hand had no such setbacks. In addition to the fact that Myanmar is in China's backyard, the Chinese fighters, especially the J-10 was marketed as "ultra modern" and was even offered highly advantageous price and payment conditions.

However the results of that tender was dramatic.

The J-10 is a product of widespread assistance by the western powers during the years of the Cold war. During the cold war, the U.S encouraged Israel to help the Chinese boost their capabilities against what they considered as the "Evil Empire" which was giving the whole western world & China quite a challenge. China and the Soviet Union were at each other throats after the Soviets refused to bow down to china's demands to return "their" land. After many bloody skirmishes, where the Chinese suffered enormous causalities on the hands of the vastly superior Red Army, there was much bad blood between them. The western powers capitalized on this and began to rub shoulders with the Chinese. The Chinese too sold them J-7s to be used on the U.S DACT(Dissimilar Air Combat Training) simulating Soviet fighters. In the midst of this Honey moon, Israel starting sharing their technology with the blessings of Washington. And on top of that list(and a prime candidate since that project was stopped and was not in active service), was the Israeli Lavi.

However before Israel can offer full assistance, the Tienanmen massacre led to an abrupt halt to the help. However the Chinese still retained all the blueprints and even a Lavi mock-up. It was only natural for the Chinese Aerospace having done nothing but copying and reverse engineering fighters for the past 4 decades, to continue reverse engineering the Lavi. The cold war ended and China found itself partnering with its former enemy to ask for help. The Russian engineers who came out in the open reported several blueprints of Lavi in Hebrew! Russians who were cash strapped at this point agreed to help and also offered their engine. After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes, J-10 finally flew. The Chinese fan boys were instantly captivated by the "beautiful" Israeli fighter and began over hyping its performance. The fighter was so secretive that only recently did china accept its existence. The first battle for this fighter was against the JF-17 which was a cheap project built on the Super-7(Super J-7) project. The J-10 clearly came out winning on the specs, which lead the PLAAF putting all its money on J-10 and ditching the JF-17, which at this point was referred as Junk Fighter -17 by the aviation community. After the triumphant domestic win, J-10's first real competition outside its motherland was in its neighborhood, Myanmar. There it was pitted against the MiG-29, Soviet Union's First Fourth Generation Fighter.

Inspite of the other advantages heaped on the Chinese fighters, the result is that only the superior fighter wins.
J-10 with its single engine was more risky compared to the twin engined MiG-29. It looses out on Thrust to Weight ratio to the MiG-29SMT. Its G-limits are unknown, as is its range, while Mig-29SMTs data is well known(9Gs and 1800kms without drop tanks). It shares 95% commonality with MiG-29UPG & can share or have a constant flow of spares & after sales support with the Indian Air Force's spare parts vendor. Its stall performance and recovery is unknown, while MiG-29 is known for breath taking stall maneuvers... hence getting out of a stall for a MiG-29 is a piece of cake. It has 7 hardpoints which can be increased to 11 with multi locks and can carry atleast 6 BVR missiles, while J-10 has 7 Weapon Hardpoints(and few pod station hardpoints which can only be used for pods, and less-than 100kg dumb bombs). Out of the 7, it can carry BVR missiles on only 2 hardpoints with dual racks, so a total of only 4 BVR missiles. It can carry 5 tonnes in weapon tonnage while J10's unknown. However some Chinese fan boys claim 4.5 tonnes and some even 6 tonnes. In avionics, there is the clear Russian superiority over Chinese copies. Taking all these facts into consideration, it's no wonder that the MiG-29SMT fulcrum was chosen over a Chinese plane. Apart from the desperate and poor PAF, which has no reliable & cheap suppliers, it seems there is no one else who is willing to take this Chinese fighter yet.

There is little doubt now that the Chinese J-10 has suffered a blow to its prestige with its very first overseas defeat to the MiG-29SMT Fulcrum.

China's J-10 suffered its first overseas defeat to the MiG-29 Fulcrum
 
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Just to mess with you guys!!!! honestly in this day and age instead of buying stuff directly from the source, it might be a healthy option to have had head to head trials,China is the only operator for j10, and there are no clear indications of it's serviceability. I am not aware of what the requirements of BAf is and it's operating budget is, If BAF is looking to gear up for marine role, it must look into twin engine aircraft, Mig 29K included as russia's Mig29K line is in production right now. Another contender could have been upgraded excess defence article program of the US for F16's, extremely potent multirole fighters with probably the best serviceability and safety record. Then there are avenues to also buy Su30 series aircraft with the advantage of additional upgrades or services that can be sourced from China, India, Indonesia, etc, and last but not the least is the M2000K reconditioned fleet from UAE that will go on sale shortly. There are quite a few options for BAF to explore

You have a good point about the lack of knowledge of serviceability of the J-10.Our only other source of aircraft is Russia...we already have a deal going on with them...I think BAF is only leasing J-10s for now.It might decide to buy them after they are time-tested in BD. Unfortunately US refused to sell us F-16 at first but at a later dialogue the were interested but wouldn't sell us armaments according to our needs.China Russia are reliable in case of birds for us.
 
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WOW!! 95 replies to a thread which does not share any source of any kind!! Don't you guy's have anything else to do!! Bunch of Fanboy's crowding over a topic which the author joked about!!
 
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WTF?????..................

That would explain us buying most of the equipment form China.....That would also explain why China would love to arm it's enemies ally....PLA isn't stupid....the guy who told you BD is an ally to India is more than stupid.Bangladesh and India has close to zero military relation.Our economic trade with China dwarfs our trade with India.
I don't understand your guys' logic. One minute you claim BD is controlled by RAW, the next you say BD has no reltions with India? You can't have it both ways.

If India really does have such a hold on BD then it's not at all unimaginable that Indian eyes would be given a private of BD's latest toys- is it?
 
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I don't understand your guys' logic. One minute you claim BD is controlled by RAW, the next you say BD has no reltions with India? You can't have it both ways.

If India really does have such a hold on BD then it's not at all unimaginable that Indian eyes would be given a private of BD's latest toys- is it?

Raw has a grip on a specific political party that comes to power every 5 years and controls the civilian authority.The military power structure is separated from the Civilian one.A lot of Indians have a conception that India-Bangladesh relation is like India-Nepal relation.It is not.From a military point of view India is a hostile nation.So NO you won't get to look at anything that the military doesn't want you to see.And yes we are hostile to each other if we were nepal we wouldn't be sheltering your insurgents and you wouldn't be supporting our insurgents.
 
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also, good neighbours don't kill their neighbours on the border and hang them from barbed wire fences....

Raw has a grip on a specific political party that comes to power every 5 years and controls the civilian authority.The military power structure is separated from the Civilian one.A lot of Indians have a conception that India-Bangladesh relation is like India-Nepal relation.It is not.From a military point of view India is a hostile nation.So NO you won't get to look at anything that the military doesn't want you to see.And yes we are hostile to each other if we were nepal we wouldn't be sheltering your insurgents and you wouldn't be supporting our insurgents.
 
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@bamboocastle , your right im not sure why everyone is getting so worked up about??

Okay, first up, J-10s on a loan is a huge goddam piece of news,Why would the BD government not go out and publicly announce it??Mig 29s were announced,F-7BGIs were. This would give the AL a massive staning platform to advocate that they had a successful tenure in pricuring military procurement.

Second, China is givining us TOT for the type 056 corvette, one of their most advanced warships, do you really think they care about the J-10s???

Until i see an actual news report from proper sources(even BD news), this is complete BS.
 
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Specifications for J-10A

1) General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 15.49 m (50.82 ft)
Wingspan: 9.75 m (31.99 ft)
Height: 5.43 m (17.81 ft)
Wing area: 33.1 m² (356.3 ft²)
Empty weight: 9,750 kg (21,495 lb)
Loaded weight: 12,400 kg (28,600 lb)
Useful load: 6,000 kg[52] (13,200lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,500 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or WS-10A Taihang turbofan
Dry thrust: 79.43 kN / 89.17 kN (17,860 lbf / 19,000 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 125 kN / 130 kN (27,999 lbf / 29,000 lbf)

2) Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude, Mach 1.2 at sea level
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²
Combat radius: 1,600 km (with air to air refueling), 550 km (without air to air refueling)
Ferry range: 1,850 km
Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,055 ft)
Wing loading: 381 kg/m² (78 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.024 (with AL-31); 1.085 (with WS-10A)

3) Armament
Guns: 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon
Hardpoints: 11 in total (6× under-wing, 5× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 6,000 kg
(13,228 lb) external fuel and ordnance[43]
Rockets: 90 mm unguided rocket pods
Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12
Air-to-surface missiles: PJ-9, YJ-9K
Bombs: laser-guided bombs (LT-2), glide bombs (LS-6) and unguided bombs
Others: Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage, 2× under-wing) for extended
range and loitering time
Avionics: Unknown phased array radar
NRIET KLJ-10 multi-mode fire-control radar
Externally mounted avionics pods:
Type Hongguang-I infra-red search and track pod
BM/KG300G self-protection jamming pod
KZ900 electronic reconnaissance pod
Blue Sky navigation/attack pod
FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod

Some updates to the data:

Maximum ferry range: 3200 km
Combat radius: 1100 km (unrefueled)
Radar: Type 1473

Snooping in BD will be 1000 times easier than snooping in China.. China does the same, when China is unable to steal USA technology , it ask Pakistan to help..

What do you think what were chinese doing at Mehran base, when Taliban blow off the Pakistani AWCES??

China has given Nuke technology, in return Pakistan has given F16, AWCES, Cruise Missile, Stealth Helos technology to China...

There is no evidence that Pakistan gave any of those.
 
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J10 is old Lavi design, If India need the technology/blueprint , it will get it from Israel... India has good relation with Israel, If BD wants we can get Lavi blueprint for u as well :P

What India keenly look for is air-profile of J10, Characteristics of J10, Behaviour and agility of the plane.. I wish BD gets this bird..

The Lavi theory was denied by both the Chinese and the Israelis.

India has good resources in BD. And I say it again, if we need Blueprint of J10 we can get it from Israel.. The Spy sattelites/drones can track J10 behaviour (flight profile).

For flight profile of J10 we don't need to come near. The weapon, avionics etc can be snooped easily..

There is no way for a satellite, no matter what the resolution, to track a fast moving object. They can detect it and perhaps provide information on its heading and speed. Satellites' resolutions, real-time data, are not sufficient to perform such tasks.
 
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You sound like Pakistani .

The backbone of Chiniese force will be J10 (Copy of Israeli Lavi) and J11 (Unethical stolen Russian design).. J20/31 is far far away..


We know all about J11, If we learn about J10 our worry will reduce...

J20 will come at same time of PAK-FA/ F35..

Uh, the J-10 "Lavi" theory was denied by both the Chinese and Israelis.

The J-11B/J-15/J-16 almost completely utilizes homegrown technologies, all of which are new, that are placed within a Russian airframe; the only thing that relates the Chinese J-11B to their Russian brothers is the design of the airframe; heck, even then the airframe has been upgraded with RAM and composites.
 
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I doubt it'll ever happen..if we review Aircraft purchase by both Bangladesh and Mayanmar,both country is preferring Russian Aircraft over Chinese Aircraft.Mayanmar chose Mig-29 SMT over J-10.now,if any malpractice hasn't happened,J-10 is inferior in some terms than Mig-29 SMT,which BD already uses..but hell,even Mig-29 isn't so called preferred aircraft,which is overpriced and a 30-40 years old fighter.if that can win Mig-29 SMT,then I think J-10 is not so great what some guys think it is..


anyway,dig out an old article on J-10's first overseas loss....



On 23rd December 2009 a significant event took place which sadly went under reported. When inane drivel were making its way to the news, the event which established the superiority of a fighter over another went largely unnoticed. It was on that very day the first news regarding results of a competition came out in the open. The Myanmar Air force(Tatmadaw Lei) chose the MiG-29SMT Fulcrum over the much hyped China's J-10, and its smaller cousin which was rejected by China itself- the JF-17 Thunder.

This competition was like no other. On one hand the fulcrum was facing setbacks everywhere. First it was in Malaysia where due to endemic corruption and the interference of Middle men, the spares for the MiG-29s were ridiculously over priced by the time it reached the end user. This prompted Malaysia to retire its MiG-29s prematurely. The second setback was on the Algerian front, where another corruption involving Russian middle men lead to sourcing inferior parts for upgrading the MiG-29s. This lead Algeria to cancel the order, which left the Russians in deep soul searching. Just recently the middle men were arrested and criminal cases initiated against them. There were also wild rumors of Myanmar's MiG-29s being grounded due to poor after sales service(which got proved wrong). Plus SMT Fulcrums are basically mothballed MiG-29S fresh out of factory(during the 1990s but never got inducted into the Russian Air Force because of the poor economic condition of Russia) and is re-sold with SMT upgrades to various countries. The Chinese fighters on the other hand had no such setbacks. In addition to the fact that Myanmar is in China's backyard, the Chinese fighters, especially the J-10 was marketed as "ultra modern" and was even offered highly advantageous price and payment conditions.

However the results of that tender was dramatic.

The J-10 is a product of widespread assistance by the western powers during the years of the Cold war. During the cold war, the U.S encouraged Israel to help the Chinese boost their capabilities against what they considered as the "Evil Empire" which was giving the whole western world & China quite a challenge. China and the Soviet Union were at each other throats after the Soviets refused to bow down to china's demands to return "their" land. After many bloody skirmishes, where the Chinese suffered enormous causalities on the hands of the vastly superior Red Army, there was much bad blood between them. The western powers capitalized on this and began to rub shoulders with the Chinese. The Chinese too sold them J-7s to be used on the U.S DACT(Dissimilar Air Combat Training) simulating Soviet fighters. In the midst of this Honey moon, Israel starting sharing their technology with the blessings of Washington. And on top of that list(and a prime candidate since that project was stopped and was not in active service), was the Israeli Lavi.

However before Israel can offer full assistance, the Tienanmen massacre led to an abrupt halt to the help. However the Chinese still retained all the blueprints and even a Lavi mock-up. It was only natural for the Chinese Aerospace having done nothing but copying and reverse engineering fighters for the past 4 decades, to continue reverse engineering the Lavi. The cold war ended and China found itself partnering with its former enemy to ask for help. The Russian engineers who came out in the open reported several blueprints of Lavi in Hebrew! Russians who were cash strapped at this point agreed to help and also offered their engine. After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes, J-10 finally flew. The Chinese fan boys were instantly captivated by the "beautiful" Israeli fighter and began over hyping its performance. The fighter was so secretive that only recently did china accept its existence. The first battle for this fighter was against the JF-17 which was a cheap project built on the Super-7(Super J-7) project. The J-10 clearly came out winning on the specs, which lead the PLAAF putting all its money on J-10 and ditching the JF-17, which at this point was referred as Junk Fighter -17 by the aviation community. After the triumphant domestic win, J-10's first real competition outside its motherland was in its neighborhood, Myanmar. There it was pitted against the MiG-29, Soviet Union's First Fourth Generation Fighter.

Inspite of the other advantages heaped on the Chinese fighters, the result is that only the superior fighter wins.
J-10 with its single engine was more risky compared to the twin engined MiG-29. It looses out on Thrust to Weight ratio to the MiG-29SMT. Its G-limits are unknown, as is its range, while Mig-29SMTs data is well known(9Gs and 1800kms without drop tanks). It shares 95% commonality with MiG-29UPG & can share or have a constant flow of spares & after sales support with the Indian Air Force's spare parts vendor. Its stall performance and recovery is unknown, while MiG-29 is known for breath taking stall maneuvers... hence getting out of a stall for a MiG-29 is a piece of cake. It has 7 hardpoints which can be increased to 11 with multi locks and can carry atleast 6 BVR missiles, while J-10 has 7 Weapon Hardpoints(and few pod station hardpoints which can only be used for pods, and less-than 100kg dumb bombs). Out of the 7, it can carry BVR missiles on only 2 hardpoints with dual racks, so a total of only 4 BVR missiles. It can carry 5 tonnes in weapon tonnage while J10's unknown. However some Chinese fan boys claim 4.5 tonnes and some even 6 tonnes. In avionics, there is the clear Russian superiority over Chinese copies. Taking all these facts into consideration, it's no wonder that the MiG-29SMT fulcrum was chosen over a Chinese plane. Apart from the desperate and poor PAF, which has no reliable & cheap suppliers, it seems there is no one else who is willing to take this Chinese fighter yet.

There is little doubt now that the Chinese J-10 has suffered a blow to its prestige with its very first overseas defeat to the MiG-29SMT Fulcrum.

China's J-10 suffered its first overseas defeat to the MiG-29 Fulcrum

A decision to buy a product not only involves capability, but also politics, the need of the purchasing country, price, as well as the configuration of the country's military and leadership. And then we have the selling country's willingness to make that sale in the first place.

For example, Thailand was offered the Type 039 submarine but did not buy it because they did not have the military bases that support such systems. Likewise, North Korea tried to purchase the JH-7 but the Chinese rejected them.

As for the capabilities of the J-10A, its maneuverability is extremely high, its thrust to weight ratio is superior to most aircraft of its class, its avionics are upgraded with a 120 km / 1 m^2 range radar, and it has defeated the Su-27, J-11, Su-30MKK almost every single time in simulated combat, with one time a 13:1 kill ratio.

It speaks for itself.
 
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Raw has a grip on a specific political party that comes to power every 5 years and controls the civilian authority.The military power structure is separated from the Civilian one.A lot of Indians have a conception that India-Bangladesh relation is like India-Nepal relation.It is not.From a military point of view India is a hostile nation.So NO you won't get to look at anything that the military doesn't want you to see.And yes we are hostile to each other if we were nepal we wouldn't be sheltering your insurgents and you wouldn't be supporting our insurgents.

During the last rule by your army, we had very good relations with the army too. I'm not at all claiming they will show their tech to us, I just don't have any data to make such an assertion, but India generally tries to maintain a good working relation with BD as we should. Its on this site that I see BDs proclaiming India is enemy blah blah blah, but on the ground its different. I really do not see grounds strong enough to have enmity. Irritants yes, but they exist, BD even has irritants with Myanmar too, and India ith Nepal and even Bhutan. If the BD posters here showed a little more maturity it would make the section slightly credible. Shrill one sided whining is boring.
 
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