Condominium: Possible Solution to the Kashmir Issue

[Raj-Hindustani]

If Pakistan had the might to take Kashmir from india it would have taken it the day a370 was abolished. It has tried and failed multiple times over history.

About trusting each other recall how kargil happened in the first place. You expect India to trust a politically unstable military ruled Pakistan. Whom are you selling this to.

Third Pakistan is doing its best since 2 years to make loc the new IB for two reasons. The gap btw india and Pakistan is risen far enough that any new adventure will result in pakistan losing. And teh gap will only increase ( look at each others economies) second reason is the spill over from western borders.

Exactly...

1965 war - A best lesson actually.

Kashmir was not important to India then India never opened other fronts during the WAR as Pakistani military planners were assuming.

Now, in 21 century under the nuclear umbrella...... I do not see any full flesh war between India vs pakistan or CHina vs India.... so disputes will never get solved.

Better, All need to accept the reality, bury the past, and move forward......

 

[Wood]

This seems like a kind of treaty that India would consider after a military defeat/surrender to Pakistan.

 

[Silverblaze]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.
I will first discuss some ideas which were already discussed in higher circles at different times.
First of the possible solution is known as Dixon Plan given by Sir Owen Dixon United Nations' Representative for India and Pakistan pursuant to the Security Council's Resolution of March 14, 1950. but I would again disagree with him on certain points. Let's discuss his plan first:
1. Ladakh to India.
2. The Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan) and Pakistan-Administrated Kashmir (AJK) to Pakistan.
3. Split Jammu between India and Pakistan.
4. A plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley.
Now, India has divided State of Jammu and Kashmir into two union territories. It wouldn't be acceptable in current position to accept point number 1 i.e awarding Ladakh to India with current map of Ladakh drawn up by India, where even Siachin Glashier and heads of all rivers are falling in Ladakh. China, a Security Council permanent member would also never accede to such a demand.
Point number 4 is also useless now, because India wouldn't allow a plebiscite in Kashmir valley at any cost because of national ego.
Now let's access the UN Security Council's suggestions:
It asked Pakistan and India to evacuate the valley and then UN administrated plebiscite would be held. Nothing about security of UN personnel or territory was given. It is not binding on any of the members. So these resolutions stand no chance.
Now let's assess Musharaf's 4 point formula:
1. Kashmir should have the same borders but free movement across the region be allowed for people on both side of LoC;
2. There should be self-governance or autonomy but not independence
3. Region should be demilitarized i-e phased wised withdrawal of troops from the region.
4. A mechanism should be devised jointly so that the road map for Kashmir is implemented smoothly.
Now there are several flaws in this plan, first of all it is not a plan at all because it doesn't settle the issue which is status of Jammu and Kashmir but accepts division of Kashmir and creates mini corridors like Kartarpur. It doesn't resolve issue of militarisation and human rights and right to self determination. Line of Control would be defacto border and within a few years, the mini corridors would be stopped and it will settle the dust.
Here comes some out of box thinking:
1. Amend Constitution of India & Pakistan and create a Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council where half of the members would be representatives from Pakistani Government and half of them would be from Indian Government. This body would oversee elections of the Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
2. Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh and Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir would be governed by a Single Cabinet consisting of First Minister and his colleagues of Cabinet. They would be elected by the State Assembly which would be elected by all of the state.
3. Jammu and Kashmir Police under Kashmir State Cabinet would be appointed. It would also function as border police. Jammu and Kashmir Border Police would cover all entry points from India to Kashmir and from Pakistan to Kashmir.
4. After Jammu and Kashmir Border Police has taken charge, India and Pakistan's Army would vacate State of Jammu and Kashmir and there would be a security council binding resolution that no state would attack Jammu and Kashmir and no military aircraft would enter into airspace of Jammu and Kashmir even in the peace times. No fighter aircraft can be stationed in the State and No state in the world could establish an airbase, military base or store nuclear & weapons of mass destruction in the state.
5. No Law of Pakistan and India would be binding or extend to Jammu & Kashmir.
6. Supreme Court of India and Pakistan would have no jurisdiction over Kashmir.
7. Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council would issue identity and travel documents and would also help State Government for accreditation of educational degrees, visa and consular services. It would also coordinate State's membership in UN and other international non security organizations i.e World Bank, Interpol, World Trade Organisation, World Customs Organization, ICRC etc.
8. Citizens of Jammu and Kashmir would be dual nationals of India and Pakistan.
9. Jammu and Kashmir would be integral part of both India and Pakistan as a condominium is supposed to be. It would raise no Army or Airforce except Border Police.
10. Currency of both countries would be acceptable and State Government can adopt and create it's own currency if it wishes.
These steps need no years of negotiations but honesty at both sides. It wouldn't hurt ego of any country either. It would be win-win situation for all three parties.

Your suggesstions are much appreciated as you have put a great deal of thinking in it. However allow me to disagree as these suggestions will not change the state of limbo Kashmir is in.

Pakistanis must remember that after asking for partition of bengal and punjab india has no ethical legal moral or political claim over Jk.

But we must also remember that it was Pak leaderships short sightedness and lack of geographical understanding that led to the fall of srinagar in hindu hands.

as of now there is no alternative to war to get kashmir with combination of strategic and diplomatically circling of india and weakening it internally.

 

[Wood]

If Pakistan had the might to take Kashmir from india it would have taken it the day a370 was abolished. It has tried and failed multiple times over history.

About trusting each other recall how kargil happened in the first place. You expect India to trust a politically unstable military ruled Pakistan. Whom are you selling this to.

Third Pakistan is doing its best since 2 years to make loc the new IB for two reasons. The gap btw india and Pakistan is risen far enough that any new adventure will result in pakistan losing. And the gap will only increase ( look at each others economies), this is also the reason India started claiming p 0 k as its territory openly. second reason is the spill over from western borders.

All hope is not lost for Pakistan. The China card is still on the table. If Pakistan can convince China to open a front in the North, then there will be a real possibility for Pakistan to take Kashmir.

Now, in 21 century under the nuclear umbrella...... I do not see any full flesh war between India vs pakistan or CHina vs India.... so disputes will never get solved.

Better, All need to accept the reality, bury the past, and move forward......

Full front war with China is definitely a possibility that India should prepare for. While China is a big trade partner for India, the Indian economy is still not big enough for China to care about.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Just curious, did you know that "behind the scenes" this issue has been "settled for good"? And thus, there was a no war pact? The lines as they are are now a de-facto international border. No wars and after a few years of peace, the people of Kashmir will be allowed to come and go with proper documentation (kind of how it's on the Afghan-Pakistan border). Hopefully, a day might come when trade could be initiated through the roads from other areas.

I hope this is all true.. (I am willing to accept status quo, as long as Kashmiris are happy and don't look to us as people who ditched them- if Kashmiris accept the Indian rule and are happy with it, we are happy too, we'll move on with our life)

In the end its all about what Kashmiris want (of course from our side we want the water issue to not be politicized)

but I haven't seen an ice break moment to suggest it is all solved?

 

[Paro_Peagus]

All hope is not lost for Pakistan. The China card is still on the table. If Pakistan can convince China to open a front in the North, then there will be a real possibility for Pakistan to take Kashmir.

It's not exactly what it seems on the Chinese front. Don't go by PDF or modi media. China has grave limitations if the bullets go flying. There is a reason China couldn't go all out during Indias weakest period during the Covid even though India actually gave them enough opportunities by going bullets first. That's up for a discussion in another place. Here my comments would get deleted by mods anyway. I don't plan on wasting my time here.

 

[SIPRA]

Good, that a number of "phuddu marka" and "chutiyam sulfate" solutions of Kashmir issue have been presented in this thread.

 

[Chhatrapati]

You just mentioned China once. That is a very serious miscalculation on your part. China also holds quite a large chunk of the erstwhile Kingdom, there are region lost or given away to China by both India and Pakistan. Solution between India and Pakistan can only be done if and when China is on board. But the Chinese are not willing to negotiate any part of the regional controlled by them and wants ladakh for themselves.
India will not work a deal where India losses territory even if it means reducing military presence and giving autonomy. For that we have to go down economically so much that we cannot hold on to the region. If that didn't happen in the 1990's then it will not happen in the near future.
The whole Kashmir affair was a learning curve for India and a series of lost opportunities for Pakistan.

 

[SIPRA]

Kashmir issue is merely a symptom of a deeper and severe inherent conflict, between Hindus and Muslims of subcontinent. This conflict awaits its resolution, which, most probably, would be settled, though a lot of bloodshed. The blood, spilled during 1947, was far far less, than was required to settle this issue, substantially.

 

[CodeforFood]

Just a while ago, I was reading a post by jamahir titled "A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan". He/She insisted upon declaring Line of Control (LOC) as International Border, clearly meaning accepting the status quo and abandoning cause for Kashmir and throwing United Nation's resolutions to dustbin. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind throwing up the resolution if three parties agree to some sort of agreement.
I will first discuss some ideas which were already discussed in higher circles at different times.
First of the possible solution is known as Dixon Plan given by Sir Owen Dixon United Nations' Representative for India and Pakistan pursuant to the Security Council's Resolution of March 14, 1950. but I would again disagree with him on certain points. Let's discuss his plan first:
1. Ladakh to India.
2. The Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan) and Pakistan-Administrated Kashmir (AJK) to Pakistan.
3. Split Jammu between India and Pakistan.
4. A plebiscite in the Kashmir Valley.
Now, India has divided State of Jammu and Kashmir into two union territories. It wouldn't be acceptable in current position to accept point number 1 i.e awarding Ladakh to India with current map of Ladakh drawn up by India, where even Siachin Glashier and heads of all rivers are falling in Ladakh. China, a Security Council permanent member would also never accede to such a demand.
Point number 4 is also useless now, because India wouldn't allow a plebiscite in Kashmir valley at any cost because of national ego.
Now let's access the UN Security Council's suggestions:
It asked Pakistan and India to evacuate the valley and then UN administrated plebiscite would be held. Nothing about security of UN personnel or territory was given. It is not binding on any of the members. So these resolutions stand no chance.
Now let's assess Musharaf's 4 point formula:
1. Kashmir should have the same borders but free movement across the region be allowed for people on both side of LoC;
2. There should be self-governance or autonomy but not independence
3. Region should be demilitarized i-e phased wised withdrawal of troops from the region.
4. A mechanism should be devised jointly so that the road map for Kashmir is implemented smoothly.
Now there are several flaws in this plan, first of all it is not a plan at all because it doesn't settle the issue which is status of Jammu and Kashmir but accepts division of Kashmir and creates mini corridors like Kartarpur. It doesn't resolve issue of militarisation and human rights and right to self determination. Line of Control would be defacto border and within a few years, the mini corridors would be stopped and it will settle the dust.
Here comes some out of box thinking:
1. Amend Constitution of India & Pakistan and create a Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council where half of the members would be representatives from Pakistani Government and half of them would be from Indian Government. This body would oversee elections of the Assembly of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
2. Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh and Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir would be governed by a Single Cabinet consisting of First Minister and his colleagues of Cabinet. They would be elected by the State Assembly which would be elected by all of the state.
3. Jammu and Kashmir Police under Kashmir State Cabinet would be appointed. It would also function as border police. Jammu and Kashmir Border Police would cover all entry points from India to Kashmir and from Pakistan to Kashmir.
4. After Jammu and Kashmir Border Police has taken charge, India and Pakistan's Army would vacate State of Jammu and Kashmir and there would be a security council binding resolution that no state would attack Jammu and Kashmir and no military aircraft would enter into airspace of Jammu and Kashmir even in the peace times. No fighter aircraft can be stationed in the State and No state in the world could establish an airbase, military base or store nuclear & weapons of mass destruction in the state.
5. No Law of Pakistan and India would be binding or extend to Jammu & Kashmir.
6. Supreme Court of India and Pakistan would have no jurisdiction over Kashmir.
7. Jammu and Kashmir State Coordination Council would issue identity and travel documents and would also help State Government for accreditation of educational degrees, visa and consular services. It would also coordinate State's membership in UN and other international non security organizations i.e World Bank, Interpol, World Trade Organisation, World Customs Organization, ICRC etc.
8. Citizens of Jammu and Kashmir would be dual nationals of India and Pakistan.
9. Jammu and Kashmir would be integral part of both India and Pakistan as a condominium is supposed to be. It would raise no Army or Airforce except Border Police.
10. Currency of both countries would be acceptable and State Government can adopt and create it's own currency if it wishes.
These steps need no years of negotiations but honesty at both sides. It wouldn't hurt ego of any country either. It would be win-win situation for all three parties.

If pakistan merge india into it... this will not be a problem anymore . Or vice versa for some other ppl fantasies.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Kashmir issue is merely a symptom of a deeper and severe inherent conflict, between Hindus and Muslims of subcontinent. This conflict awaits its resolution, which, most probably, would be settled, though a lot of bloodshed. The blood, spilled during 1947, was far far less, than was required to settle this issue, substantially.

Yes, Pakistan and India cannot co-exist. That's the harsh reality. At least one of them will have to cease to exist for these problems to be solved

 

[Varunastra]

Yes, Pakistan and India cannot co-exist. That's the harsh reality. At least one of them will have to cease to exist for these problems to be solved

In that solution no one wins.

Maybe it is the fate of the subcontinent. Hopefully it never comes to that.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Yes, Pakistan and India cannot co-exist. That's the harsh reality. At least one of them will have to cease to exist for these problems to be solved

you have to find a way to co-exist, even if you have to force yourself to swallow the bitter bill - their is no other option - people say breaking up but that wont happen at least not in our lifetime, of course we in Pakistan know that most of our breaking up sceneries are just pipe dreams (ill go through reasons too if any one wants- hint is everyone is dependent on the other guy to survive- economies, people, food production have been linked for centuries- even if Pak was hindu state it would have stayed together )

but its the same in India as long as they have a thriving democracy they'll survive as in diverse countries democracies have a way of sorting out issues
their is not other solution except for death and a scenario where thousands of year civilizations cease to exist

 

[M. Sarmad]

In that solution no one wins.
View attachment 776261

We all have to die one day anyways. It will be less painful when you have no one to mourn your death or the deaths of your beloved ones. A nuclear explosion will kill us faster than our brain detects pain. Those left behind will die a slow and painful death though. You guys will be born again, probably as cats or dogs, in some part of the world and we will go to Jannah. We both are religious nations after all.

On a serious note, the idea of Pakistan is antithesis to the rationale behind existence of India as a country. There are some gaps that cannot be closed, unfortunately. Another possible scenario involving lesser bloodshed is that one of the two countries implodes. Earlier it was only Pakistan that faced such a threat, but with the rise of Hindutva in India you too have joined the league

 

[CriticalThinker02]

During the rule of Aurangzeb the subcontinent's GDP was 27% of the world, when the british left in 1947 it was less than 4%, it would really help the region's prosperity if we could sort out our differences and learn to live together in peace because we don't have a choice but I'm a realist not a delusional, I can sense where the winds of fate are turning and I see only one future for the subcontinent, a nuclear wasteland where some 300+ odd nukes would explode all over the region and we would suffer a fate far worse than death, the probability of this fate taking place is far higher than all other probabilities.