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Concentrating Forces and Audacious Action: PLA Lessons from the Sino-Indian War

Mr.Joe Shearer;
Sir, i am sincerely interested in how to go about learning some of the facts of history and war tactics. I kind of feel awkward when i can't distinguish between the authentic information and the rest. I wanted to PM you, but the forum doesn't allow me to do that. I have read the FAQ and couldn't get any instructions on that..

Gokul.
 
Please do, I am greatly interested in what happened in that war.

Something wrong somewhere; I had hoped that you would write the account.

Ahhh you should consult the Xinhui's and officer of engineer's posts at the world affairs board. It was a topic discussing the 10 most important changes to the PLA.

The Pacific Rim | The Rise of China

Thanks muchly; will look it up.

and there are also threads about taking bloated regiments, trimming them into battle groups of some sort and there is also something about a sectors being divided into theatres of control. A lot of technical stuff about unit composition and deployment doctrine. I read it a while ago.

I couldn't find the thread with a quick look but I'll look again tomorrow.

Ah, excellent.

Your sourcing of information never ceases to amaze me. Looking forward to hearing further.

I will be off air intermittently, in order to complete a rather complex task soon (strangely enough, it concerns the areas that we are discussing in this conversation!!!!).
 
Mr.Joe Shearer;
Sir, i am sincerely interested in how to go about learning some of the facts of history and war tactics. I kind of feel awkward when i can't distinguish between the authentic information and the rest. I wanted to PM you, but the forum doesn't allow me to do that. I have read the FAQ and couldn't get any instructions on that..

Gokul.

Dear Gokul,

I'll be glad to help. Last year, we started, among other members of PDF, more than one forum to exchange stuff that might not interest the general set of readers at PDF, but they didn't stay alive because all of us were in different working conditions; nobody could really spare the time.

I hope to revive these information exchanges in a week or two. Bear with me till then.

With warm regards,

'Joe Shearer'
 
Dear Gokul,

I'll be glad to help. Last year, we started, among other members of PDF, more than one forum to exchange stuff that might not interest the general set of readers at PDF, but they didn't stay alive because all of us were in different working conditions; nobody could really spare the time.

I hope to revive these information exchanges in a week or two. Bear with me till then.

With warm regards,

'Joe Shearer'

Please do and I'll try to write an initial bit about the Sino-Vietnamese war to get the ball rolling.
 
Hi there folks

I didn't check this thread for a while(was away on a road trip) and its good to see this thread active again. Will post my responses/clarifications tomorrow.

regards
TK
 
If you disagree, please find me an official statement by ANY government that supports the claim.

In this article, United Nations Under-Secretary General, Sashi Tharoor,
says that Nehru declined the offer.
The Hindu : `Nehru declined offer of permanent U.N. seat'
Interesting, since Nehru had replied that he hasn't received any such offer, should try to find out the source of Tharoor. I wrote to the authors of Washington Post, but no reply yet :((
 
In this article, United Nations Under-Secretary General, Sashi Tharoor,
says that Nehru declined the offer.
The Hindu : `Nehru declined offer of permanent U.N. seat'
Interesting, since Nehru had replied that he hasn't received any such offer, should try to find out the source of Tharoor. I wrote to the authors of Washington Post, but no reply yet :((

He tweets - find out his Twitter ID and ask him for his e-mail id, if it can't be found by searching.
 
Dear Gokul,

I'll be glad to help.

'Joe Shearer'

Sir,
In relation with this argument, i also vaguely remember my Secondary school History teacher saying that Chinese war was planned to coincide with the Guantanamo Cuban missile crisis. I wanted to point out that, if that was true, then obviously, the war was meant to be a short war.

Thanks
 
Sir,
In relation with this argument, i also vaguely remember my Secondary school History teacher saying that Chinese war was planned to coincide with the Guantanamo Cuban missile crisis. I wanted to point out that, if that was true, then obviously, the war was meant to be a short war.

Thanks

Dear Gokul,

As happens, rarely, the premises are incorrect, but the conclusions are sound.

China's decision to teach India a short sharp military lesson was reached sometime in 1960/1961. It took some months to assemble troops in the border areas; in those days, the bulk of PLA troops were concentrated on the Taiwanese straits and on the coastline, from where external aggression had threatened China for nearly a century. Thus, the planning and the logistical execution must have taken several months before the military action did.

In other words, China started moving against India long before the external world became aware of the Cuban missile crisis.

Was the PRC leadership aware of what was slowly developing in the Caribbean? Not possible, beause Soviet Russia herself became aware of the full facts of the 'crisis' only after the US Ambassador, Adlai Stevenson, made the facts known to the US administration known to the entire world in his famous presentation to the UN. So for the Chinese to have deliberately planned to strike during the crisis is to assign them insight into the secret counsels of the two great powers beyond what was then reality.

On the other hand, it is not unlikely that the coincidence took some of the heat off China while hostilities were continuing.

I hope that this helps.
 
We've turned the IA on its head for its bumbling of 1962 now I propose int he spirit of equity we turn our focus on the PLA. Whatever its strength and weaknesses are we owe it ourself to examine them.

So I present this article article as a starting point. It's not the Sino-Vietnam war but its cogent.
 
PLA GROUND FORCES LESSONS LEARNED: EXPERIENCE AND THEORY

The lessons learned by PLA ground forces since their founding can be divided into two distinct periods: first, lessons learned through their own combat experience from 1927 to 1979 and second, lessons from studying the experience of other armies in modern wars from 1979 to the present. This division roughly parallels China’s revolutionary experience, led primarily by Mao Zedong, followed by the period of economic development, characterized by “reform and opening,” initiated by Deng Xiaoping. Many of the lessons of the revolutionary period are now considered “assumptions” about army building in the period of reform. Underlying both periods are lessons derived from the pre-modern Chinese military, primarily the tenets of Sun Tzu Art of War, and the influence of the Soviet military, especially in force structure, doctrine, and equipment.

The lessons learned in the first 52 years of the PLA were derived from combat experience in both guerrilla and conventional action against the Nationalists (KMT), Japanese, and Americans and their allies. The 1979 campaign against the Vietnamese was a major influence for the period of reform to follow. Prior to the “self-defense counterattack,” Deng had already identified many elements of future reform, but the bloody combat in northern Vietnam provided impetus for their implementation (along with Deng’s accession to the country’s primary leadership role). To reinforce the value of combat experience, the PLA rotated a series of units to the Vietnamese border in the 1980s to expose the troops to battlefield conditions.

This chapter will examine each of those two periods in turn. Major lessons are categorized into civil-military relations; China’s technological level, including the “Red versus Expert” debate; and military doctrine, tactics, and force structure.

Though there are certainly other sources from the revolutionary period, this chapter will rely on the fountainhead of Chinese Communist wisdom, the thoughts of Mao Zedong, for its outline of lessons learned. While these quotations from the Chairman are certainly “party line,” they were selected because of their enduring impact on the PLA’s current ideology, force structure, and doctrine. There have been numerous modifications to Mao’s lessons over the years, but many of his observations have become “traditions” in the PLA and are now assumptions used to structure the force and formulate its doctrine in the modern period. The examples cited illustrate how these lessons remain a major factor in PLA modernization.

Civil-Military Relations.


Every Communist must grasp the truth, “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.” Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party.

Though the primary mission of the PLA is defense of the country from external threats, it retains a secondary mission of domestic security, including protection of senior Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leaders. Party control of the gun is emphasized foremost here because it is likely the army would be called on to perform internal security operations if the Public Security police and People’s Armed Police (PAP) failed to maintain order.Party control over the armed forces was not much of an issue during the revolutionary period when most Party leaders were or had been Army leaders. Of course, internal disputes flared over which Party-Army leaders were in control, but except for confusion during the decade of the Cultural Revolution that culminated in Lin Biao’s alleged coup attempt, the military as a whole stood behind the Party. The issue was put to the test in the spring of 1989 when a significant number of officers and men failed to follow the orders of their chain of command. Nevertheless, the Party prevailed and units of the PLA from across the nation applied deadly force against an unknown number of demonstrators and citizens.

In the following decade, Party and PLA leaders stressed “absolute loyalty” to the Party in numerous political slogans and campaigns. Ideological training was consistently listed as first priority — demonstrated by three of Jiang Zemin’s “Five Sentences on Army Building” (“politically qualified, militarily competent, good work style, strict discipline, and adequate logistical support”), referring to political loyalty and party discipline. In recent years, political training has focused on Jiang’s “Three Represents.”

Party control is supervised by the political commissar/instructor and Party committee systems that extend from the highest levels to basic grass roots units. Periods of tension between commanders and commissars have occurred, but that tension appears to have lessened today even as fewer officers move from one track to another.

Traditionally, the PLA has also been a school to train young communists for their eventual return to society as loyal servants of the Party.Though there has been talk of transforming the PLA into a “state army,” these efforts were set aside after Tiananmen and, in reality, Party control trumps any mention of “state control.” Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao, two Party and state leaders with no formal uniformed military experience, head the Central Military Commission (CMC); currently no uniformed military officers are found on the Party’s highest policy making organ, the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau.

The sole purpose of this army is to stand firmly with the Chinese people and to serve them whole-heartedly.

The Red Army was different from warlord and Nationalist armies in its relationship to the Chinese peasants and workers. For example, the “Three Main Rules of Discipline” and “Eight Points of Attention” were a code of behavior intended to enlist support from the Chinese masses in the Red Army’s fight against stronger KMT forces. As a guerrilla force, the Red Army was the fish in the sea of the Chinese people.The concept “serve the people” continues into the modern period in the PLA’s provision of labor to economic projects, such as the laying of optical fiber lines throughout the country, and especially in its efforts in disaster relief throughout the country. The manpower-heavy, mobile, and disciplined ground force with logistics and helicopter support has regularly been used as a “shock force,” along with PAP, reserves, and militia, during floods, earthquakes, and other natural disasters. These undertakings have multiple benefits: 1) they improve the image of the PLA in the eye of the average Chinese and 2) they allow the units to exercise their command and control and logistics functions while providing valuable leadership experience for officers and noncommissioned officers (NCOs) in small units.

For the first time in 2002, the PLA included rescue and disaster relief operations in its unit training programs. Additionally, a total of 19 special units to fight floods have been formed in designated engineering regiments and brigades.

We have an army for fighting as well as an army for labor. For fighting we have the Eighth Route and New Fourth Armies; but even they do a dual job, warfare and production.
In its early years of fighting against both the KMT and Japanese, the Red Army had to fend for itself in remote, rural areas. The communists reduced the burden on the peasants by raising their own crops and livestock. This tradition continued into the PLA era, helping to reduce government expenditures for defense. However, the practice got out of hand in the mid-1980s and 1990s during the period of rapid economic growth, but of limited official allocations to the military. Training time was lost, graft and corruption were rampant, and profits were problematic as the PLA moved from subsistence farming and light industry into a vast array of commercial enterprises.

In 1998, President and Chairman of the CMC Jiang ordered the PLA and PAP to divest themselves of most of their commercial enterprises. However, as noted by the U.S.-China Commission:

The Chinese government decided to allow the PLA to retain a number of production units and enterprises, proving the “notion that the PLA is out of business is not true.” Observers estimate the PLA has held onto 8,000 to 10,000 such enterprises and units of which “a vast majority were subsistence” units like farms and food-processing units. Militarily useful enterprises were retained for national security reasons, most notably telecommunications, space and satellite-launch services, radar technologies and optoelectronics, lasers, civil aviation and railways. Some enterprises that provided cover for intelligence gathering, national security, foreign affairs, and front operations were only partially divested.

China’s Technological Level.


Weapons are an important factor in war, but not the decisive factor; it is people, not things, that are decisive.

Mao’s view of the importance of “man over technology,” sometimes criticized as an attempt “to make a virtue out of necessity,” was logical at the time for a guerrilla force operating in a country with a large population and of limited industrial modernization. In 1959 Lin Biao modified the precept with the formulation that “men and material form a unity with man as the leading factor.” Lin’s “balanced policy” was important in providing justification for the development of the PLA’s more technical arms, i.e., missile, air, and naval forces, at the expense of the ground forces.

The balance of man and weapons is directly related to the tension between “Red” and “Expert” that began almost immediately after the founding of the Red Army. In oversimplified terms, Mao’s “Red” vision emphasized the ideal “Party soldier” operating with the support of the masses in a “People’s War,” utilizing hit and run guerrilla tactics. Modern weapons were less important to this kind of force, which often was under-equipped and relied on what it could acquire from the enemy, than they were to a more technologically advanced foe. This vision contrasts with the “Expert” professional military concept that stressed regularized organization and conventional tactics as advocated by Zhu De and nearly all early Red Army leaders. In fact, the Chinese army has used both styles of fighting depending on the circumstances and today the PLA requires that soldiers be both “Red” (politically reliable) and “Expert” (capable of employing modern weapons and equipment in a highly structured organization).

. . . a force which is inferior but prepared can often defeat a superior enemy by surprise attack.










more to follow but this should be enough for now.
 
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