Commander of the Egyptian Air Defense Forces: We have the most complex missile system in the world

[Gomig-21]

It's not silly.
But it's a little funny.
We appreciate life hacks. So don't feel offended. All in good spirit.

Not offended at all. Anyone can criticize whatever they feel like criticizing if it's legitimate. The issue is that temp Avenger setup has been ridiculed many times on this form and no one has ever been able to justify the poking fun at with anything militarily substantial. So we're here to challenge those who like to poke fun without being able to back it up.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Not offended at all. Anyone can criticize whatever they feel like criticizing if it's legitimate. The issue is that temp Avenger setup has been ridiculed many times on this form and no one has ever been able to justify the poking fun at with anything militarily substantial. So we're here to challenge those who like to poke fun without being able to back it up.

I'm sorry. I haven't seen it on this forum.
I wouldn't have used it if I had.
It is a legitimate workaround.
It's mostly about the amusement of seeing the set-up. Not to be taken seriously.

 

[Gomig-21]

I'm sorry. I haven't seen it on this forum.
I wouldn't have used it if I had.
It is a legitimate workaround.
It's mostly about the amusement of seeing the set-up. Not to be taken seriously.

I appreciate the apology, even though it was unnecessary. It takes a man of character to do that, something that is somewhat lacking on most of these international forums where nationalism and loathing of certain nations takes precedence over constructive criticism.

@Penguin and myself had a long discussion about what the pros & cons were regarding what the Egyptian Navy did by mounting the Avenger system on the Mistrals and after 3 pages, it was pretty clear that it was not only a great idea for a temporary, defensive solution against the low probability of aerial threats ATM, but it also cost the Egyptian Armed Forces the best price possible = $0. Since the Humvee-mounted Avenger is available in adequate numbers in the Egyptian military, and is a highly mobile system which can actually even be easily integrated into the ship's systems, it ends up being a win-win temp solution. The only thing the Avenger lacks is a ICWS gattling gun such as the Phalanx since it's not really designed as a support system for a naval asset.

The lack of a high-volume, rapid-firing, automated gun could actually be considered a bigger problem than not having an ICW missile system because of the prevailing threat of cretin vermin scum that can rapidly approach and threaten the boats. We're guessing they probably use some of the many fast-attack boats or escort ships to address that problem, which should be taken care of when the final system is delivered.

 

[The SC]

I appreciate the apology, even though it was unnecessary. It takes a man of character to do that, something that is somewhat lacking on most of these international forums where nationalism and loathing of certain nations takes precedence over constructive criticism.

@Penguin and myself had a long discussion about what the pros & cons were regarding what the Egyptian Navy did by mounting the Avenger system on the Mistrals and after 3 pages, it was pretty clear that it was not only a great idea for a temporary, defensive solution against the low probability of aerial threats ATM, but it also cost the Egyptian Armed Forces the best price possible = $0. Since the Humvee-mounted Avenger is available in adequate numbers in the Egyptian military, and is a highly mobile system which can actually even be easily integrated into the ship's systems, it ends up being a win-win temp solution. The only thing the Avenger lacks is a ICWS gattling gun such as the Phalanx since it's not really designed as a support system for a naval asset.

The lack of a high-volume, rapid-firing, automated gun could actually be considered a bigger problem than not having an ICW missile system because of the prevailing threat of cretin vermin scum that can rapidly approach and threaten the boats. We're guessing they probably use some of the many fast-attack boats or escort ships to address that problem, which should be taken care of when the final system is delivered.

They will have to wait and see when the Mistrals will be fully equipped..
As for the Egyptian air-defence..it is the most complex in the world and the most lethal in the middle east..no doubt about it..it is a fact no one can deny after seeing the complexity and lethality of it..

 

[Ceylal]

They will have to wait and see when the Mistrals will be fully equipped..
As for the Egyptian air-defence..it is the most complex in the world and the most lethal in the middle east..no doubt about it..it is a fact no one can deny after seeing the complexity and lethality of it..

Good for the bravado,but it is less effective against modern aircrafts and missiles...American has not given anything to Egypt that may constitue a threat to Israeli AirForces nor the Russians for that matter..

 

[My-Analogous]

That might be your disease not ours.. clarify your question first and start your rant later if you can..what are you talking about?




Air Defense
Egypt has one of the largest and best-organized air defense systems in the Middle East. Its arsenals include 12 batteries of MIM-23 Improved Hawk surface-to-air missiles with 78 launchers. The Hawk has a range of 45km to 50km and is guided by semi-active radar homing; it has a single-shot success rate of 83%. In 1999, Egypt acquired 32 Patriot-3 (MIM-104-F/PAC-3) missile systems from the United States for $1.3 billion. The PAC-3 is a highly-maneuverable hit-to-kill missile designed to defend against short and medium-range ballistic missiles.. a November 2014 video released by the Ministry of Defense indicates Egypt has either upgraded or possibly obtained new Russian-made Buk medium-range and Tor short-range surface-to-air missiles systems. The new Buk-M2 still uses the same 9M317 missile as its Buk-M1-2 predecessor, but "can simultaneously engage four times the number of targets than the Buk-M1-2." Similarly, the new or upgraded Tor-M2 is capable of engaging four targets simultaneously, up from the single target by the Tor-M1.

http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/egypt/delivery-systems/

Read my comments again before react. Plus you did personal attack and i forgive you this time and hope you behave your self next time

 

[The SC]

Read my comments again before react. Plus you did personal attack and i forgive you this time and hope you behave your self next time

This is what you said:
"Which one is made in Egypt ? Chest thumping on others achievement is common disease in this world"
So read my answer carefully next time..that is provocative and uncalled for.. at least clarify what systems you are talking about.. because Egypt do more development and innovations on its existing systems than making new systems.. it goes with the saying : "why reinvent the wheel?".. and it still do come up with its own systems sometimes.. This is if you were talking about the air-defence systems' missiles and radars.. for the C4I read the first post again..
BTW, I did not want to offend you.. but be more careful next time.. not to be so provocative on facts you might not know much about..I would still like to know on what basis u have stated your post..and where do you see any Chest thumping and even a disease!!! I think you should learn much about Egypt before answering next time..

 

[My-Analogous]

This is what you said:
"Which one is made in Egypt ? Chest thumping on others achievement is common disease in this world"
So read my answer carefully next time..that is provocative and uncalled for.. at least clarify what systems you are talking about.. because Egypt do more development and innovations on its existing systems than making new systems.. it goes with the saying : "why reinvent the wheel?".. and it still do come up with its own systems sometimes.. This is if you were talking about the air-defence systems' missiles and radars.. for the C4I read the first post again..
BTW, I did not want to offend you.. but be more careful next time.. not to be so provocative on facts you might not know much about..I would still like to know on what basis u have stated your post..and where do you see any Chest thumping and even a disease!!! I think you should learn much about Egypt before answering next time..

I don't have to do any research in this case and it is universal truth that you can't made any changes on any product which is not from your country without permission from owner and if you are making subsystem will be remain subsystem and not replacing the original product. The real fact is Egyptian don't have capacity to produce complete systems and they heavily rely on foreign sources and then they can't assembled and make their own kind. Egyptian can't even made shoulder base SAM's and those systems are very expensive toys and need heavy investments and chances of success are very less.
I always believe that we should stop purchasing and start building in house but whole Muslims countries are currently in sleeping mode and only Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey and Iran and some how having few teethes rest all are imported super power and they showoff others with pride their paint job. It is time that all must wake up before to late.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Air_Defense_Forces

 

[The SC]

I don't have to do any research in this case and it is universal truth that you can't made any changes on any product which is not from your country without permission from owner and if you are making subsystem will be remain subsystem and not replacing the original product. The real fact is Egyptian don't have capacity to produce complete systems and they heavily rely on foreign sources and then they can't assembled and make their own kind. Egyptian can't even made shoulder base SAM's and those systems are very expensive toys and need heavy investments and chances of success are very less.
I always believe that we should stop purchasing and start building in house but whole Muslims countries are currently in sleeping mode and only Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey and Iran and some how having few teethes rest all are imported super power and they showoff others with pride their paint job. It is time that all must wake up before to late.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Air_Defense_Forces

Well, Egypt have permission from owners.. google "Tair A sabah" as an example or the "Pechora 2M".. and by the way Egypt produces some systems of its own.. the Egyptian C4I for instance is of Western origin, but in Egypt and KSA it is made around locally made sophisticated electronic components.. it is very known that Egypt leaded the developing world in space and missile technologies in the 60s.. so one should think now what is the minimum Egypt has gained from those projects.. not talking about maximum here.. Turkey is a NATO member who deals very closely with the US and EU as well as Usrael.. I would have been surprised if it was not in its today's position.. Pakistan can rely on China..their friendship and close relations are legendary.. Iran is doing what it can..but with a lot of help from China and NK.. Indonesia is very close to the Netherlands, the US and allies..they cooperate a lot with each other.. Malaysia is doing good also.. The UAE is leading the Arab world in this regard.. but you can google every Arab country and see what they are producing themselves.. I can tell you that it is still modest but a lot..
Even your wiki source does not contradict the thread.. it is only limited in its scope.. what you find in the first post is from the Egyptian army itself.. and BTW.. Egypt is not known for chest thumping, to the contrary it is known for its modesty although it has a very powerful army of one million men and more than 4000 tanks...etc
There are many "made in Egypt" weapons and else portals on the web.. they are worth a visit..

 

[My-Analogous]

Well, Egypt have permission from owners.. google "Tair A sabah" as an example or the "Pechora 2M".. and by the way Egypt produces some systems of its own.. the Egyptian C4I for instance is of Western origin, but in Egypt and KSA it is made around locally made sophisticated electronic components.. it is very known that Egypt leaded the developing world in space and missile technologies in the 60s.. so one should think now what is the minimum Egypt has gained from those projects.. not talking about maximum here.. Turkey is a NATO member who deals very closely with the US and EU as well as Usrael.. I would have been surprised if it was not in its today's position.. Pakistan can rely on China..their friendship and close relations are legendary.. Iran is doing what it can..but with a lot of help from China and NK.. Indonesia is very close to the Netherlands, the US and allies..they cooperate a lot with each other.. Malaysia is doing good also.. The UAE is leading the Arab world in this regard.. but you can google every Arab country and see what they are producing themselves.. I can tell you that it is still modest but a lot..
Even your wiki source does not contradict the thread.. it is only limited in its scope.. what you find in the first post is from the Egyptian army itself.. and BTW.. Egypt is not known for chest thumping, to the contrary it is known for its modesty although it has a very powerful army of one million men and more than 4000 tanks...etc
There are many "made in Egypt" weapons and else portals on the web.. they are worth a visit..

What you are referring is license production and that is the point where country is ready to start their own project in which Arab countries were not addressing till early 2000. Now UAE is doing some thing and so do KSA. But they need at least 50 years to catch and give some good tech matching West. They lost prime time of 60's and 70's and early 80's. Now game is become very expensive and sophisticated. Computer makes game very different now. But till day i can say that no arab country have her own missile program

 

[The SC]

What you are referring is license production and that is the point where country is ready to start their own project in which Arab countries were not addressing till early 2000. Now UAE is doing some thing and so do KSA. But they need at least 50 years to catch and give some good tech matching West. They lost prime time of 60's and 70's and early 80's. Now game is become very expensive and sophisticated. Computer makes game very different now. But till day i can say that no arab country have her own missile program

Some do have their own missile programs.. they just don't go public about it..hence information is scarce..Iran started its missile program in the late 80s, and some Arab countries started in the 60s.. I leave it to your logic and imagination to figure it out..

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey is a NATO member who deals very closely with the US and EU as well as Usrael

Wish the best for all hardworking nations but something is misleaded here. Non-NATO member Saudi Arabia surpassed NATO member Turkey's overall deals with just one signature with USA. No need to mention others inked with USA and European nations on previous years so Don't use NATO member card please when you are talking about Turkish defence industry and engineering efforts to justify your defficiency on such areas. Turks have been very busy to improve capabilities of own industry since 1974 Cyprus Peace Operation and today, we have not been in league where we have been targetting yet, Although impressive programs are being developed/matured. If It was about money imporving the scientific and technological capabilities, Saudi Arabia should have been number-1 in world today. You will get what I mean in near future.

 

[The SC]

Wish the best for all hardworking nations but something is misleaded here. Non-NATO member Saudi Arabia surpassed NATO member Turkey's overall deals with just one signature with USA. No need to mention others inked with USA and European nations on previous years so Don't use NATO member card please when you are talking about Turkish defence industry and engineering efforts to justify your defficiency on such areas. Turks have been very busy to improve capabilities of own industry since 1974 Cyprus Peace Operation and today, we have not been in league where we have been targetting yet, Although impressive programs are being developed/matured. If It was about money imporving the scientific and technological capabilities, Saudi Arabia should have been number-1 in world today. You will get what I mean in near future.

I do understand what you mean.. I hope you do understand what I mean that NATO is a military organisation and that being part of it facilitates ToT much more than for non-members..
Money helps if you want to do R&D, build Modern Universities and prepare scientific talent, there is no denying of it..
In reality, the major Arab countries are doing good technology wise, be it the UAE, KSA, Egypt, Jordan, Algeria, or Sudan and the rest.. they all have their own arms industries and have major JVs with international weapons manufacturers.. Turkey had special circumstances that allowed it to advance quite rapidly and develop impressively.. it did not go to 4 wars with Usrael and had to rebuild from scratch, nor did it suffer civil wars like many Arab countries.. one should understand the context of my reply.. since it was made by a Turkish guy..

 

[cabatli_53]

I do understand what you mean.. I hope you do understand what I mean that NATO is a military organisation and that being part of it facilitates ToT much more than for non-members..
Money helps if you want to do R&D, build Modern Universities and prepare scientific talent, there is no denying of it..
In reality, the major Arab countries are doing good technology wise, be it the UAE, KSA, Egypt, Jordan, Algeria, or Sudan and the rest.. they all have their own arms industries and have major JVs with international weapons manufacturers.. Turkey had special circumstances that allowed it to advance quite rapidly and develop impressively.. it did not go to 4 wars with Usrael and had to rebuild from scratch, nor did it suffer civil wars like many Arab countries.. one should understand the context of my reply.. since it was made by a Turkish guy..

ToT is totally related with the politic relations of states. NATO is not a bargain issue on defence trades but just encourage members to trade among each-other. Tenders are being opened to announce what you are requesting from manufacturer and The companies who is willing to accept the terms, just attend tenders to provide their offer. That's the standart procedure to be clear to your public in every democratic states. Not only NATO members, but also Non-NATO states are purchasing Turkish papers to give their offers. There are many examples like that Turkey has canalized sources to non-NATO states since they accepted requests with giving better offer. Those things could be made by all states including Saudi Arabia but It is at least about bargain power of states tied with politic stability. While EU is accusing you in order to violating human rights and issues arm embargo, In this politic circulation, You can not demand much things from USA. There is no chance remained for you to acquire Western equipment.

Contrary to what you say, NATO member Turkey is under a hidden embargo on sub-component/component level since tens of years. It is because of their politic calculations to protect Greece, Cyprus and Armenia like states and to keep Turkey inside of their hands politically/militarily. I don't know whether you are aware of Turkey's defence relation history with our NATO "allies" but Let me summarize a few things from past.

-Turkey is a NATO state that USA made 230mm artillery rockets are exported us with restricted numbers. When addition package is requested to order, It is refused so Turkey has developed own artillery rocket systems with China in 1990's and improved technology years by years and today, We are offering 107mm, 122mm, 230mm, 302mm, 600mm, 610mm precision strike artillery rocket/missile family. No need to mention ballistic missile programs kept hidden for now.

-Turkey had selected AH-1Z attack helicopter and It was planned to purchase 145 of them. Let transferring technology aside, USA refused a simple integration for Turkish components. Turkish side tried to convince USA but They didn't step back politically so Tender is cancelled. Today, Thanks to Italian help (Berlusconi factor)Turkish industry is manufacturing both attack and utility helicopters from transmission to rotor, turbo-shaft engine, fuselage, avionics to missiles.

-Tank-2000 project, It was KMW selected with their Leopard-2A6EX variant. It was planned to order 1000 tanks but Germany blocked the deal and It is also cancelled. Turkey started working over tank technology and It was Non-NATO state Israel willing to share their technology with Turkey. With Sabra project, Turkey has worked over tank FCS technology and developed a domestic one called Volkan. Leopard-1 tanks have been upgraded with Volkan FCS. Later more advanced variants, and Altay tank appeared.

I can tell pages of such events about Western embargoes over Turkey for engines, laser pointers, UAV, missile, helicopter, sonar, detector, transducers, radar issues but Thanks Allah that We have been revealing a new thing whenever they wanted to block our advancements. That's the way We comprehend actual meaning of NATO for Turkish people. Your NATO perception is not valid for Turkish Republic at least.

 

[The SC]

ToT is totally related with the politic relations of states. NATO is not a bargain issue on defence trades but just encourage members to trade among each-other. Tenders are being opened to announce what you are requesting from manufacturer and The companies who is willing to accept the terms, just attend tenders to provide their offer. That's the standart procedure to be clear to your public in every democratic states. Not only NATO members, but also Non-NATO states are purchasing Turkish papers to give their offers. There are many examples like that Turkey has canalized sources to non-NATO states since they accepted requests with giving better offer. Those things could be made by all states including Saudi Arabia but It is at least about bargain power of states tied with politic stability. While EU is accusing you in order to violating human rights and issues arm embargo, In this politic circulation, You can not demand much things from USA. There is no chance remained for you to acquire Western equipment.

Contrary to what you say, NATO member Turkey is under a hidden embargo on sub-component/component level since tens of years. It is because of their politic calculations to protect Greece, Cyprus and Armenia like states and to keep Turkey inside of their hands politically/militarily. I don't know whether you are aware of Turkey's defence relation history with our NATO "allies" but Let me summarize a few things from past.

-Turkey is a NATO state that USA made 230mm artillery rockets are exported us with restricted numbers. When addition package is requested to order, It is refused so Turkey has developed own artillery rocket systems with China in 1990's and improved technology years by years and today, We are offering 107mm, 122mm, 230mm, 302mm, 600mm, 610mm precision strike artillery rocket/missile family. No need to mention ballistic missile programs kept hidden for now.

-Turkey had selected AH-1Z attack helicopter and It was planned to purchase 145 of them. Let transferring technology aside, USA refused a simple integration for Turkish components. Turkish side tried to convince USA but They didn't step back politically so Tender is cancelled. Today, Thanks to Italian help (Berlusconi factor)Turkish industry is manufacturing both attack and utility helicopters from transmission to rotor, turbo-shaft engine, fuselage, avionics to missiles.

-Tank-2000 project, It was KMW selected with their Leopard-2A6EX variant. It was planned to order 1000 tanks but Germany blocked the deal and It is also cancelled. Turkey started working over tank technology and It was Non-NATO state Israel willing to share their technology with Turkey. With Sabra project, Turkey has worked over tank FCS technology and developed a domestic one called Volkan. Leopard-1 tanks have been upgraded with Volkan FCS. Later more advanced variants, and Altay tank appeared.

I can tell pages of such events about Western embargoes over Turkey for engines, laser pointers, UAV, missile, helicopter, sonar, detector, transducers, radar issues but Thanks Allah that We have been revealing a new thing whenever they wanted to block our advancements. That's the way We comprehend actual meaning of NATO for Turkish people. Your NATO perception is not valid for Turkish Republic at least.

I understand that there were these restrictions within NATO as far as Turkey was concerned.. but Turkey knew how to take advantage of it by seeking other partners.. and the truth as you have pointed out, is that any developing nation needs help and assistance from friendly nations.. Can you imagine that KSA although paying huge prices for US (at least) weapon systems, also faces restrictions in numbers.. like in the case of the Abrams MBT.. KSA wanted around a thousand but it was restricted to about 500, and THAAD too with restrictions to the first version and 7 batteries while KSA wanted more and the new ER version..with delivery dates in 6 to 7 years.. but KSA knew how to take advantage of all the restrictions by seeking Russian, Chinese and others assistance..The examples of restrictions are numerous.. although the US believes much in the green bill, it wants political and strategic influence and all its "friends" suffer from it..
Now the time has changed a bit with the economic globalisation, so we are witnessing a lot of Joint projects and JVs in the world.. I am glad that Turkey has advanced to such level of Technological know-how, manufacturing and heavy industries and that it is going into JVs with many Arab and Muslim countries.. this will be a short, medium and long term win/win for both sides..