Cleric terms Women’s Protection Bill contrary to Islamic Sharia

[SMC]

female centric

Similar laws have been introduced in some western countries (e.g., Violence against women act in the US) and these laws have been heavily abused by women wanting to take out anger on some guy. This comes through an acquaintance so you don't have to believe this but false allegations of rape are so common that when police finds out an allegation was false, it doesn't even register as even slightly surprising. But regardless of that, truckloads of men have been jailed for false allegations of rape, domestic violence, child abuse that women made to take out some vendetta against them.

 

[Dubious]

@SMC I believe you failed to read or comprehendthis bit

Your analogy can ONLY be applied if for starters women were ALREADY given their rightful rights of seeking justice, not being afraid of society, not being the victims of neglect say if they want a divorce from an abusive husband, not trashed if some asshole threw acid on their face, not judged if some asshole blackmails them with pix taken from wherever, not insults them for wanting to educate and work...

these laws have been heavily abused by women wanting to take out anger on some guy.

Now is that the fault of the law or the woman?

Thanks bro. Let me read this ish.

Honestly, the more I learn about this bill---the more I tend to agree with people who are opposing this so called "women's right" bill.

Lets see what so-called retarded wanna be westernized liberals of Pakistan are hailing as a great bill.

Imma read the whole thing and give my analysis in this thread.

I really dont understand why women are so afraid of change or something deferring from the norm?
You are living in America and other guy opposing it is from Canada ( @SMC ), where such rights have been issued for decades now ....and yet each of you would call your nation best and not backward.....but god forbid another nation introduces the same laws? It kind of strikes me funny something you support and are impressed of be denied to anyone else?

@Horus @waz @Icarus @WebMaster @Manticore @Jungibaaz @Slav Defence @HRK @WAJsal please merge thread: Reaction Against Women's Protection Bill

 

[T-123456]

THANK YOU for the summary uncle

A look at this thread says enough.

 

[Hell hound]

@SMC I believe you failed to read or comprehendthis bit


Now is that the fault of the law or the woman?


I really dont understand why women are so afraid of change or something deferring from the norm?
You are living in America and other guy opposing it is from Canada ( @SMC ), where such rights have been issued for decades now ....and yet each of you would call your nation best and not backward.....but god forbid another nation introduces the same laws? It kind of strikes me funny something you support and are impressed of be denied to anyone else?

@Horus @waz @Icarus @WebMaster @Manticore @Jungibaaz @Slav Defence @HRK @WAJsal please merge thread: Reaction Against Women's Protection Bill

sis let me tell you what my and most people who are not mullahs objections are with this bill (i am just giving you bullet points detailed because detailed objection are there in my previous posts)
1)it contradict with our ownership rights. eviction from solely owned property of husband
2) gps trackers which is invasion of privacy rights.you can't put gps tracker on any one unless he is a national security risk or under house arrest
3)snatching our right to bear arms
4) guilty until proven innocent nature of bill and potential of abusing the bill
now coming to the point i support
1)making husband pay for rental expanses
2)awareness and support centers for females
3)acceptance of medical reports as evidence
4)eviction of abuser from the property owned by her

 

[Dubious]

1)it contradict with our ownership rights. eviction from solely owned property of husband

huh is that part of violence?

2) gps trackers which is invasion of privacy rights.you can't put gps tracker on any one unless he is a national security risk or under house arrest

where?

3)snatching our right to bear arms

ERR you sure its the same bill? I didnt read any of these in here: http://www.punjabcode.punjab.gov.pk...N OF WOMEN AGAINST VIOLENCE BILL 2015.doc.pdf

guilty until proven innocent nature of bill and potential of abusing the bill
now coming to the point i support

That law always stands no one is going to put ANY MAN in any country in jail just coz the woman said he slapped her (until and unless the dad of the woman can pay off the corrupt courts/ police or whatever)
As for abusing, men abused ISLAMIC laws! That is law of ALLAH to respect women, not to lay a hand on them, to protect them ....if he can abuse that he can abuse ANYTHING or ANYONE for that matter!

 

[Hell hound]

i would love to read your remarks when you guys have read the bill
@AUz @Akheilos

 

[Dubious]

i would love to read your remarks when you guys have read the bill
@AUz @Akheilos

I just browsed through it ...I didnt find the terrorizing points that is putting men in jeopardy

 

[Hell hound]

where?

(d) wear ankle or wrist bracelet GPS tracker to track the movement of the
defendant twenty four hours, seven days a week

ERR you sure its the same bill? I didnt read any of these in here

(f) surrender any weapon or firearm which the defendant lawfully possesses or prohibit the defendant from purchasing a firearm or obtaining license of a firearm;

huh is that part of violence?

if a property is solely own by someone he has the right to live in it, use it or sell it as he deem fit but this bill contradict with husbands right to sell the property
(c) the defendant shall not sell or transfer the house to any person other
than the aggrieved person;

 

[SMC]

but statistics of Pakistan tells you the rights of women have forever been overlooked...so "re introducing" them to society isnt by any means favouring one of the other esp when one was never ever acknowledged to begin with!

Are you telling me that women that commit the same crimes listed in this bill were prosecuted before, but men committing those same crimes were not? I highly doubt that. Domestic violence against men is completely overlooked in western countries, let alone Pakistan.

Which is why I say that the this bill should be gender neutral. So that ANYONE committing any of these crimes should face the same punishment, regardless of their own gender or the victim's gender.

What different rights? Men in Pakistan for most of their life have been favoured for just having one Y chromosome...

Err no, sure men have had advantages in some areas but in others women did. Men are more likely to get killed due to violent crime than men. Men die earlier than women due to natural causes, and nothing is done to fix it. Women are doing better in school. A woman can simply claim some guy hit her and an army of white knights will go and beat that guy to smithreens.

Quoting one of the studies that discusses domestic violence, it says: Authors in discussing this disparity suggest that societies often view women's violence against their male partners as "understandable, pardonable and sometimes humorous."

When there is any case a woman is automatically blamed for being raped, blamed for getting acid thrown on her, blamed for acquiring a pervert stalker ...When was the last time any of these fell on a male?

I think you're exaggerating here way too much. Women are not blamed for being victims of such crimes. If they claim a guy did this to her, the guy will get beaten to smithreens.

And if the govt says we need to do something about this trend that has never been addressed is it favouring 1 gender over the other or ACTUALLY FINALLY recognizing the other gender as equal and right-worthy?

Again, my issue is making female victims several class above male victims.

We are talking about Pakistan....where women are in a dire need to be called HUMAN WITH RIGHTS
The problem with you projecting is that US has given rights to women and women rights group has bumped these a little too much....so much that some men have to beg their ex wives just to see their children, so bad that some women claim everything from their ex husbands pushing them to the street...Now that is something brought on themselves, and cant be equated when in Pakistan women arent even treated equally to human!

My point is simple, do not assume that domestic violence against men does not exist or is even rare. The article lists studies that not only extend to the US but to 34 nations, including Iran. Similar findings were duplicated there -- a large minority of domestic violence is perpetrated by men.

It is assumed and GENERALLY it is the case as women in our society arent exactly taught of their own rights to be treated as a human....many wont even complain about domestic abuse coz "log kiya kehain gay" many wont report a stalker coz again "log kiya kahein gay" many wont even report a rape coz police being a member of the society will also be part of the log and actually attack the victim...It isnt unheard of! Tell me how many men find themselves in such situations (IN PAKISTAN)?

A man making such complaints will likely be laughed off as being a "sissy", "weak", being unable to contain a woman, whatnot. I am not saying that telling women to not report is right, but it's also not true that men's complaints will be heard of. They are in fact far more likely to get ignored.

Then he falls under the general laws where, NO ONE is to be harmed and gets away with it (which doesnt happen if you flash your VVIP card) or happen to know someone

Basically, if you are say harmed, beaten up, show your marks and get your justice (if any is remaining in your area from the corrupt politicians).

Why shouldn't he fall under the bill that is being introduced for women? Make that bill gender neutral.

BTW, women are not locked in the same prison as men even in USA...But still Does the law suggest that (bold part)? Please do show me where?!

Women face significantly less penalty than men for committing the same crime.

We do have universal laws, which apparently didnt apply to women (rape laws somehow always made the women victim guilty)....So this is the next step let people see women as humans...with rights.

I don't think they applied to anyone, not just women. Again, like I mentioned, it was a problem with implementation of those laws. If properly implemented both men and women will be protected. This bill won't make a difference either if not implemented properly.

Implementation has always been a problem. I know what suck up is....It is happening to women in Pakistan currently, oh you have an abusive husband, suck it up and live with him or his brother will divorce your sister, or husband will divorce you and your family will reject you....oh you have been raped, I am sorry to hear (goes and announces it into the neighborhood where everyone comes with their condolences but no one will offer their son in marriage), oh there were pictures of your daughter online with her classmates who were male, well each male gets married but no one will want a "wild" woman...and the examples carry on...suck it up has been used for woman for so long now you as a man feel that it will be smashed into your face?

It is no hidden story that a faulty man is a brilliant mate but god forbid a faulty wife comes in the story ...she will bring the house down and bring badness to the whole family tree...this mind you is the current mindset of equality in our society!

Not will be, it has been smashed into men's faces for millenia across the globe.

I am trying to wake you up to the CURRENT situation in Pakistan it is nothing like CANADA! Clarify that bit before going hysterical about something you didnt understand ALTOGETHER!

I am not bringing Canada into this at all.

 

[Hell hound]

That law always stands no one is going to put ANY MAN in any country in jail just coz the woman said he slapped her (until and unless the dad of the woman can pay off the corrupt courts/ police or whatever)
As for abusing, men abused ISLAMIC laws! That is law of ALLAH to respect women, not to lay a hand on them, to protect them ....if he can abuse that he can abuse ANYTHING or ANYONE for that matter

i am strongly condemn those men and judges how are abusing those law but that doesn't mean in its response i will support another law which too can be abused in the future.

 

[SMC]

@SMC I believe you failed to read or comprehendthis bit

Please, women have had these rights for a long time. I do not support those crimes or condone them, however they were also not "legal" before this bill was introduced. My argument is that this was never implemented properly, much like how law enforcement has been weak in Pakistan when it comes to all forms of crimes.

Now is that the fault of the law or the woman?

Both. However, the argument is this bill is too similar to the bills in western states that are frequently abused still today.

 

[AUz]

I really dont understand why women are so afraid of change or something deferring from the norm?
You are living in America and other guy opposing it is from Canada ( @SMC ), where such rights have been issued for decades now ....and yet each of you would call your nation best and not backward.....but god forbid another nation introduces the same laws? It kind of strikes me funny something you support and are impressed of be denied to anyone else?

@Horus @waz @Icarus @WebMaster @Manticore @Jungibaaz @Slav Defence @HRK @WAJsal please merge thread: Reaction Against Women's Protection Bill

I am living in America and that's precisely why I'm in a position to criticize this bill. I was a pre-law track in my university so I have a pretty solid background to analyze "legal documents" and their purposes (I'm not a lawyer yet, but still). I quickly went through the bill and let me give you few insights (I'll read it again in detail).

First major flaw, as I am reading the actual bill, I can't help but observe that the language of the bill (which is in English) is overly complex and a bit confusing even to a fluent English speaker as myself. This begs the question if Pakistanis who passed the bill even read it? I bet majority of them did not. Moreover, overwhelming majority of Pakistanis won't even understand what the bill says. The bill is only for elitist liberal class represented by Farzana Bari or Marvi Sirmid--and these women are so out of touch with Pakistani reality that it reminds of the French queen who uttered the words "Tell them to eat cakes" when she heard that protests were erupting amongst French farmers who did not have enough bread to feed their children. Anyways, lets move on.

Second major flaw, the bill is full of vague language and legal over-reaches. For example, it says if a man "emotionally abuse" his wife--he shall be punished and can be reported to authorities. What is the definition of emotional abuse? Bill doesn't even mentions it, let alone defining it. How do you prove emotional abuse in court? Should emotional abuses be punished by the state to begin with? What are the legal implications? This is such a pathetically thoughtout bill that I can not even start to explain the absurdities it will create in terms of legalities.

Third major flaw, the bill interconnects different rights of a person under one criminal procedure. This is a disaster in terms of any civilized practice of law. Let me explain. If a person slaps his wife, he wouldn't only get registered under domestic violence act (which is ok since he did commit domestic violence), but he will also lose his personal firearms he bought for protection, he will be made to wear GPS tracker, AND he will be made to wear a sign/bangle so that he is recognized in public as someone who had a conflict with his wife. Are you kidding me here?! This is such a gross violation of all practices of civilized law. It is akin to parading girls naked in public if they had premarital sexual encounters. Such "public shaming" for crimes is a practice of barbaric nature. No civilized society does that. NONE. If such a thing had happened in the U.S, the federal government would have sued the state legislators who passed such a blatantly draconian law. This alone should be enough to throw this "bill" out and introduce a better bill that the legislators actually read and thought about before passing it.

The above are just few of the major flaws in the bill--I can go on with many more. In United States, even one "major flaw" in any bill is sufficient to throw it out and introduce an improved version of the bill. The women rights bill passed by Punjab assembly has several major flaws from legal point of view.

And other then legal problems, we have to look at a cultural impact of a bill in the environment it was passed.

Liberal elites, who lived and get educated abroad, having no idea of problems of local Pakistanis, believe that just copy-pasting Western laws will improve situation in Pakistan. If anything, it will make things worse.

Involving Pakistani Police in household conflicts will usher in absolute destruction of household peace that exists in our society. Look, it is not American police we are talking about here. Pakistani policemen generally are uneducated, untrained, bribe-grabbing officials, and many with criminal tendencies themselves (thanks to no institution building in Pakistan). When these guys will get involve in your marital problems---do you think the situation will improve or would it only become worse ten folds? Please answer honestly.

Any interference of state in the institution of marriage causes the marriage rates in a society to drop (I can explain the structural cause of "why" that happens, if you want). In America and Western World--marriage is not something as important as it is to us. In America and majority European countries---majority of kids are born out of marriage. Majority of marriage-aged girls and guys live together and do not get married, and so on. It is in part due to laws our liberal elitists admire---but on a cultural level are you willing to have state weaken the institute of marriage? I believe that majority of Pakistanis would not want their daughters to be living in sexual relationships without the code of marriage.

So then, why are these "women-rights" laws being passed without molding such necessary women-protection legislations according to the local culture and behavior of Pakistani society?

Nobody is denying the need of proper laws to protect women from animals who abuse them. But legislation is a very challenging and well-thoughtout process--with several cultural, legal, and religious angles to it. We must make well-thoughtout laws for our culture and lifestyle---and not just try to import and impose foreign-based laws on a society like Pakistan---which is very different than West in terms of its values in regards to religion, marriage, and daily lifestyle.

Hopefully I've given *some* insight as to why the law passed in Punjab assembly isn't all rosy an all--and why even "moderates" (if u wanna use the term) like myself have a problem with such laws being passed in our assemblies without proper debate and scrutiny.

@Hell hound

 

[Dubious]

i am strongly condemn those men and judges how are abusing those law but that doesn't mean in its response i will support another law which too can be abused in the future.

So you want no laws?

Are you telling me that women that commit the same crimes listed in this bill were prosecuted before, but men committing those same crimes were not?

No rapist has been prosecuted in Punjab for a very long time!

As for women, they have been blamed of rape and thrown into jail to await their turn...some are waiting 2 decades ...Does that speak to you?

I highly doubt that. Domestic violence against men is completely overlooked in western countries, let alone Pakistan.

Again you bring in West....it is West that is thumping its chest with human rights yet it was America backing guatemala detention centre, it is West that is yelling at Saudi, Pakistan and Singapore about capital punishment just coz THEY ended it they believe everyone should follow? Yet it is them who are raring offenders and complaining about tax money ...

So long story short the West brought it on themselves for screwing their own laws....

Which is why I say that the this bill should be gender neutral. So that ANYONE committing any of these crimes should face the same punishment, regardless of their own gender or the victim's gender.

The bill can ONLY be gender neutral when it has been established that woman are human beings ad have rights! THIS is and somehow has not settled down in some people's thick skulls till date! Shocking? But doesnt make it less true!

Err no, sure men have had advantages in some areas but in others women did. Men are more likely to get killed due to violent crime than men.

I beg your pardon is there a difference between writing Men and men?

Men die earlier than women due to natural causes, and nothing is done to fix it. Women are doing better in school.

Yes but how does this apply to Pakistan where women are not even recognized as human?

A woman can simply claim some guy hit her and an army of white knights will go and beat that guy to smithreens.

If that level is achieved then something has been overdone....So far a woman is even blamed for her own rape...that is far from claiming anything!

Read the current affairs and then read the bill dont jump based on assumptions or based on the West as an example!

 

[Hell hound]

So you want no laws?

no sis i want clearly thought and just laws.not some haphazardly made piece of crap(extremely sorry for the language).

 

[Dubious]

Please, women have had these rights for a long time.

Not really, there is having these rights and there is getting into thick skulls that there are laws which stand by these rights! When British law was law of the land somehow in translating "MEN" it became for men only....and somehow women were not included in the equation...

I do not support those crimes or condone them, however they were also not "legal" before this bill was introduced. My argument is that this was never implemented properly, much like how law enforcement has been weak in Pakistan when it comes to all forms of crimes.

TRUE... The only bonus point of this bill is ....it is now written that woman also are human who have camps and centers to turn to when people (control freak mother in laws, husbands, jealous sister in law, rapist brother in law) throw her out on the streets...

Now by law she cant be thrown out, is that your evil law?

Both. However, the argument is this bill is too similar to the bills in western states that are frequently abused still today.

Yet you have never raised a voice in the "educated" "1st world" "forward" west? but have a problem for it being introduced in Pakistan?

no sis i want clearly thought and just laws.not some haphazardly made piece of crap(extremely sorry for the language).

Have you read the bill? Show me 1 hazardous piece please dont imagine it out like @SMC here!