Churches burnt in India

[Flintlock]

Are modern Greeks not Christians? Are they not adherents of a faith that claims to be "the one true faith"? And do they still not believe that the ancient Greeks accomplished great things? I don't see a contradiction at all. Some Mullahs may not want to dig up pre-Islamic history in their insecurity, but they cannot be used as the template used to describe all Muslim attitudes.

If you think deeper, you will realize that Christianity no longer decides the rules of society in western countries.
Christianity has been shown its place, in the churches. It is not allowed to go out of those churches.

When Christianity reigned supreme over Europe, it was a horrible time. People just couldn't progress. They couldn't accept that the earth was round!!

Even today, orthodox Christians vehemently oppose scientific theories like evolution because it contradicts the bible.

Most scientists/historians/archaeologists either accept that their religion exists in a separate world from the real one, or they turn athiest, or deist. (Edit: or Agnostic)

Try finding a Nobel prize winner who believes in god. You will have a tough time.

The point is, that the leadership of these countries is firmly in the hands of secular parties. This is why they are able to appreciate their ancient history without any contradictions or problems.

 

[Vinod2070]

I would first like to clarify that this is all for the purpose of discussions only. No intention of mud-slinging as most would already know and understand. I am only trying to have a clean dispassionate arguement.

This argument of "Hindu/Buddhist" is akin to that nonsensical "One Ummah" (Islamic) one. And the latter argument is fallacious - even if one considers their culture to be "superior" to that of their ancestors (and I am not saying that I, or quite a few other Pakistanis do), it does not mean that they have no claim to their ancestors or their achievements. The Greek civilization used to be a polytheistic one as well, but they can still be proud of their heritage and the achievements of the ancient Greeks.

AM, that is the very difference that Europeans don't see a contradiction in being Christian and also being proud of and acknowledging their pre-Christian past. May be they were as fundamentalist during the middle ages, but not now.

The same is not true of Muslims (at least to a very large extent). Except very few countries like Indonesia to some extent, Islamization has led to the annihilation of the existing cultures completely.

Egypt, Persia, Afghanistan etc. come to mind. There is no sign of the pre-Islamic culture at all and no one wants to associate with that.

Else we won't have the very large number of fake Syeds and Sheikhs in Pakistan as well as in India.

The whole point about following any belief system is that you believe it to be "better" than the other belief systems you may have to choose from, which means that the majority of the world believes that they are "superior" to their ancestors, since they do not follow those ancient ways anymore - so do all these peoples and civilizations loose the right to claim their heritage and the achievements of their ancestors? I think not. One can be proud of and strong in ones current faith, and at the same time also respect the achievements of ones ancestors.

Agreed. But you need to at least have the courage to acknowledge that past first. If one just feels that they have moved to a better system, they have the right to claim the old system as well. Not when you constantly deride that culture and system and call it names.

 

[Flintlock]

I am not arguing about the differences between Abrahamic and Dharmic religions, but suggesting that your attempts to combine the Dharmic religions to present a "unified" front, and Vinod's argument against distinguishing between Buddhism and Hinduism is as flawed as refusing to differentiate between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I am not refusing to differenciate them.

I am simply combining them together for convenience, because it is easier to analyze the effect when these two groups of faiths have a face-off, so to speak.

It is not some kind of historical "unified front". The Buddhists of Afghanistan never fought as one with the Hindus of India.

Try to look at it as a kind of "meeting of worlds" The Dharmic world and the Abrahmic world.

 

[dabong1]

If you think deeper, you will realize that Christianity no longer decides the rules of society in western countries.
Christianity has been shown its place, in the churches. It is not allowed to go out of those churches.

When Christianity reigned supreme over Europe, it was a horrible time. People just couldn't progress. They couldn't accept that the earth was round!!

Even today, orthodox Christians vehemently oppose scientific theories like evolution because it contradicts the bible.

Most scientists/historians/archaeologists either accept that their religion exists in a separate world from the real one, or they turn athiest, or deist.

Try finding a Nobel prize winner who believes in god. You will have a tough time.

The point is, that the leadership of these countries is firmly in the hands of secular parties. This is why they are able to appreciate their ancient history without any contradictions or problems.

Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

I love the quote
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

 

[roadrunner]

RoadRunner, I see you taking great pains to somehow differentiate Hinduism and Buddhism and trying to make some points based on that.

For us, both are Indian religions (Dharmic). Both are Indian religions (Now don't bring Nepal into the picture here).

Both suffered at the hands of invaders. Buddhism was almost wiped out. When the Buddha statues were destroyed by Taliban in Bamiyan and SWAT, we in India felt the pain.

Did you feel that pain?

Buddhism and Hinduism are two totally different religions. Ask a Chinese person on here, and I'm sure they'll tell you. Buddhism is casteless afaik, Hinduism is not for example.

Buddhism was persecuted in India, and shifted to Pakistan early on in it's development due to this religious persecution.

And yes, I have posted many topics on the idiots that have destroyed the Buddha statue in Swat.

 

[Vinod2070]

On a side note, did you know that the arabic word "but" for idol comes from the buddha?

Didn't know that. Thx. for the info.

 

[Flintlock]

Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

Newton did not win a nobel prize.

Secondly, people in the 17th century were deeply religious, because theories such as evolution and relativity had not been propagated at that time.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Albert Einstein was a Deist. He did not believe in any religious doctorine, but was a skeptic who thought of god as an abstract scientific concept.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I would first like to clarify that this is all for the purpose of discussions only. No intention of mud-slinging as most would already know and understand. I am only trying to have a clean dispassionate arguement.

No offense is being taken. It is an attempt to explore ideas and, as you said, have "dispassionate arguments".

AM, that is the very difference that Europeans don't see a contradiction in being Christian and also being proud of and acknowledging their pre-Christian past. May be they were as fundamentalist during the middle ages, but not now.

The same is not true of Muslims (at least to a very large extent). Except very few countries like Indonesia to some extent, Islamization has led to the annihilation of the existing cultures completely.

Egypt, Persia, Afghanistan etc. come to mind. There is no sign of the pre-Islamic culture at all and no one wants to associate with that.

Else we won't have the very large number of fake Syeds and Sheikhs in Pakistan as well as in India.

Agreed. But you need to at least have the courage to acknowledge that past first. If one just feels that they have moved to a better system, they have the right to claim the old system as well. Not when you constantly deride that culture and system and call it names.

See, what RR, I and others are trying to suggest is that with the recent revisions of the curriculum, to better reflect our pre-Islamic history, there is an official movement in Pakistan attempting to reverse all those years of neglect. The opponents to this move, the MMA, are projected to be routed in the coming elections, signifying the shift in society. What we are suggesting is that change in attitudes is already occurring, and even if it were not, there are many historians and Pakistanis who do respect their history and the achievements of their ancestors, and just because of such people, Pakistanis have every right to claim the achievements and history of our ancestors.

 

[Flintlock]

Buddhism and Hinduism are two totally different religions. Ask a Chinese person on here, and I'm sure they'll tell you.

Buddhism was persecuted in India, and shifted to Pakistan early on in it's development due to this religious persecution.

And yes, I have posted many topics on the idiots that have destroyed the Buddha statue in Swat.

Look RR, everything is different from everything else. Your left thumb is different from your right one. Yet, you group them together as thumbs. Why? for convenience.

Buddhism and Hinduism are different religions, but they are no more different than one Hindu sect from another Hindu sect.

Buddhism was never persecuted in India on the scale that Dharmic religions were persecuted by non-dharmic ones.

Another point: Didn't Christians and Muslims have the crusades? Yet I group them together. Got it?

 

[Vinod2070]

Buddhism and Hinduism are two totally different religions. Ask a Chinese person on here, and I'm sure they'll tell you.

Buddhism was persecuted in India, and shifted to Pakistan early on in it's development due to this religious persecution.

And yes, I have posted many topics on the idiots that have destroyed the Buddha statue in Swat.

Chinese people learned Buddhism from India. Isn't it? Even they don't deny that! Didn't a famous Chinese say thet India dominated China for a thousand years culturally without sending a single soldier?

Lets avoid verbal games here. There was never a country called Pakistan before 1947, so this name only creates confusion when discussing Pre-Islamic times!

And wasn't Ashok the greatest promoter of Budhdhism? He was the ruler of Magadha (Modern day Bihar, quite far from present Pakistan). He sent emissaries up to Srilanka and beyond. No?

Pl. substantiate this accusation of persecution in India and it shifting to Pakistan (whatever that means).

It still does not take away anything from it's being an Indian religion. Pl. quote a single respected historian who says Budhdhism is not an Indian religion.

These kind of blanket personal opinions can't be taken at face value. You need to substantiate this!

 

[Vinod2070]

But isn't that the same as arguing that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are "Abrahamic religions", monotheistic religions, "Semitic religions", born in the same land. They are! The roots are the same, the fundamental commandments are the same - but beyond that it is entirely appropriate to differentiate between them as "different faiths". So why shouldn't Buddhism, Sikhism and Hinduism be differentiated between?

But you also differentiate them from other religions. Their followers are called "People of the book" and given a separate status. No? They do have some commonalities and no one can deny that.

Are they still technically Kaafir though? This is always a bit confusing as many Muslims do refer to them as Kaafir.

I know quite a few Pakistanis who felt the pain of the Buddhist heritage in Swat being attacked, it is a part of our heritage.

Good to know that. But the destruction was also by local militants and no one came forward to protect them

 

[Samudra]

Are modern Greeks not Christians? Are they not adherents of a faith that claims to be "the one true faith"?

Aha. You must've seen these Europeans during Christmas and New year. More Christians in India would be in churches than those in the whole of UK on New Years eve!

These people are 'out of religious indoctrination'.

Pakistanis have every right to claim the achievements and history of our ancestors.

AM. Perhaps Pakistanis could start from renaming their missiles ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Vinod - since India didn't exist then either, how about we call it a "sub-continental/South Asian" religion? The use of the words Pakistan is necessary to differentiate which area of "ancient India" events occurred in.

 

[roadrunner]

Another point: Didn't Christians and Muslims have the crusades? Yet I group them together. Got it?

Muslims had the Crusades now? What a whacked version of history you read!

 

[Flintlock]

Muslims had the Crusades now? What a whacked version of history you read!

?? Read carefully and don't be rude.