Christian Man Raped, Murdered for Refusing to Convert to Islam, Family Says

[brahmastra]

whats the big hype with jizya, non muslims would pay jizya and muslims would pay zakat. In practice muslims (zakat) would pay more than non muslims (jizya). Your point is therefore irrelevant.

Big hype?
tell me my frnd why a "true system" would treat muslim and non-muslim differently?

 

[fhassan]

well well well

Looks like the Islam-bashers can't help themselves, as usual.

I will post a full refutation soon.

 

[Patriot]

well well well

Looks like the Islam-bashers can't help themselves, as usual.

I will post a full refutation soon.

Looking forward to read your post.What would happen to these people if we had true Islamic system today in place (Not the Taliban style but the true Khilaft system which was a great System)

 

[Coolyo]

We all know how much BS is spread by Fox.

I doubt that this story is legit, because these Christian fascists want to spread hatred against Islam...

In Islam their is NO compulsion in religion, this whole story is ridiculous!

 

[Coolyo]

Not to mention that homosexual rape (or rape in general) is punishable by death according to Sharia!

So without a doubt this story is 100% grade A Bullsh!t!

 

[PeacefulIndian]

Not to mention that homosexual rape (or rape in general) is punishable by death according to Sharia!

So without a doubt this story is 100% grade A Bullsh!t!

So do you mean to say that anything which is punishable by Sharia will never happen in Pakistan? Then what about the blasts that are daily taking place there? Are they permitted under Sharia or is it a lesser crime compared to rape?

 

[PeacefulIndian]

Looking forward to read your post.What would happen to these people if we had true Islamic system today in place (Not the Taliban style but the true Khilaft system which was a great System)

And how exactly are you going to establish such a system in Pakistan today, in practical terms? I guess I had asked this question to another poster as well, but no one answered.

 

[Patriot]

And how exactly are you going to establish such a system in Pakistan today, in practical terms? I guess I had asked this question to another poster as well, but no one answered.

Well that would be very hard now but my question is different.

 

[forcetrip]

It would be impossible to implement such a form of law here now ... But I have good news for people who would like to live under such a law .. Try going to Saudi Arabia .. I have even heard they are bringing something like that in Somalia too .. Good luck guys ..

 

[SecularHumanist]

It would be impossible to implement such a form of law here now ... But I have good news for people who would like to live under such a law .. Try going to Saudi Arabia .. I have even heard they are bringing something like that in Somalia too .. Good luck guys ..

Thats right. The question is that do we want to become a Saudia Arabia? Is that a model to follow? Unfortunately I have heard some Pakistanis say that we should be like those saudis. I really really hope that is not what the majority wants!

 

[fhassan]

In islamic Sharia ,Dhimmi's are given very less privilages.this means ,the situation of minorities will be pathetic to say the minimum.look at saud for an inspiration.

Christian Plight In The Middle East - The Philadelphia Bulletin Archives

Your concerns are understandable. In fact, there are many rules in Islam that appear to be oppressive.

Another example is inheritance laws, in which the male members of the family inherit a much larger proportion of the inheritance. On the face of it, this appears to be very sexist indeed.

However, closer scrutiny reveals that in fact it would be an unfair burden on the male if he were given an equal share. This is because it is haraam (forbidden) for the male members of the family to keep all their money.

The male members of the family have to provide for the female members (such as daughters, wives etc) out of their share, and the female members of the family can keep all their money and spend it on whatever they like. The wife for example does not have to give her husband any money, and she doesn’t even have to spend it on her kids (if she wishes), that is the husband’s responsibility. Inheritance is sanctioned in accordance with specific obligations.

The female members of the family can even take male members to court, if they refuse to provide for them although they have sufficient funds to be able to do so. This is called the law of “Nafaqa”.

Further reading:

Muslim Personal Law

I have written about inheritance laws in order to highlight how things can be misunderstood. Hopefully, this will set the context for my response to The Jizya tax, which is also a grave misunderstanding:

Jizya can be translated as “payment in return” and is paid by all Jews and Christians* living under protection of the Islamic state. In a society ruled by shariah, the Muslims also have to pay a tax called “Zakah” to all those outlined in the following verse:

Qur'an chapter 9 verse 60:

"Alms are meant only for the poor, the needy, those who administer them, those whose hearts need winning over, to free slaves and help those in debt, for God's cause, and for travelers in need. This is ordained by God; God is all knowing and wise."

Zakah has to be paid by every adult amongst the Muslims who is sane and financially able. Jizya by contrast is only obligatory upon adult males amongst the non-Muslims who are sane and financially able; the female non-Muslims are exempt. The non-Muslims are exempt from paying the zakah, and in some instances the non-Muslims who are eligible to pay Jizya were also exempt from that! Christian monks for example did not pay any tax of such sorts.

jizya means 'payment in return'. What they're getting in return is protection by the Muslim state along with all the benefits and exemptions from military service. This tax was ridiculously low (one dinar per year.)

So basically it was a situation where the state protected the Jews and Christians, gave them all the benefits, didn't make them risk their lives as the Muslims did, and didn't require them to pay the zakah tax, which is 2.5% of total savings, jewelry and property at the end of the year. Three quick points:

1. If a Muslim country came under attack , Muslims were required to defend it. Christians and Jews didn't need to ever raise a sword, but were still protected because their payment of jizya earned them the protection of the Muslims.

2. While Muslims were required to pay 2.5% of their savings, jewelry, and property, Christians and Jews were not required to pay jizya on property, livestock, crops or produce, and only paid at all if they could afford it. Who do you think has the more difficult burden?

3. It comes down to this. Muslims pay the higher Zakah tax and are required to defend their country (including Jews and Christians.) Jews and Christians paid a lower tax and didn't need to ever fight.

* Sometimes, other faiths were also given Jizya status, not just Jews and Christians. Moreover, if the non-Muslims agreed to fight alongside the Muslims in case of war, they Jizya would be excused:

The following is taken from Wikipedia:

Under Caliph Umar the Zoroastrian Persians were given People of the Book status, and jizya was levied on them. Christian Arab tribes in the north of the Arabian Peninsula refused to pay jizya, but agreed to pay double the amount, and calling it sadaqa, a word meaning "alms" or "charity". According to Yusuf al-Qaradawi the name change was done for the benefit of the Christian tribesmen, "out of consideration for their feelings".

Fred Donner, however, in The Early Islamic Conquests, states that the difference between sadaqa and jizya is that the former was levied on nomads, whereas the latter was levied on settled non-Muslims. Donner sees sadaqa as being indicative of the lower status of nomadic tribes, so much so that that Christian tribesmen preferred to pay the jizya.

Jabala b. al-Ayham of the B. Ghassan is reported asked Umar "Will you levy sadaqa from me as you would from the [ordinary] bedouin (al-'arab)?" Umar acceded to collecting jizya from him instead, as he did from other Christians.

Sir Thomas Arnold, an early 20th century orientalist, gives an example of a Christian Arab tribe which avoided paying the jizya altogether by fighting alongside Muslim armies "such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighbourhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty".

This is interesting:

In his message to the people of Al-Hirah, Khalid bin Walid is recorded as saying (in reference to the jizya), "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the poll tax; his sustenance is provided by the Muslim Exchequer."[citation needed] A letter attributed to Khalid bin Walid said that "This is a letter of Khalid ibn al-Waleed to Saluba ibn Nastuna and his people; I agreed with you on al-jezyah and protection. As long as we protect you we have the right in al-jezyah, otherwise we have none.”

According to Muslim accounts of Umar, in his time some payers of the jizya were compensated if they had not been cared for properly. The accounts vary, but describe his meeting an old Jew begging, and assisting him; according to one version:

Umar said to him, "Old man! We have not done justice to you. In your youth we realized Jizyah from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age". Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait-al-mal that that old man and all others like him, should be regularly doled out a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents.

In Khurasan, the native aristocracy reduced jizya, while increased taxes on the Muslim inhabitants, in order to prevent non-Muslim conversion to Islam.

Taken from here:

Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we can safely conclude, that the payment of Jizya is not as some portray.

I can provide references from hadith also, however that will make this post allot longer. I will be more than happy to share these prophetic sayings with you if you request.

 

[fhassan]

It would be impossible to implement such a form of law here now ... But I have good news for people who would like to live under such a law .. Try going to Saudi Arabia .. I have even heard they are bringing something like that in Somalia too .. Good luck guys .
.

You are mistaken, at this moment in time no state implements shariah.

In Saudi you have oppression whereby the ruling elite are practically able to do whatever they want, without any consequences, and the restof the people are subjugated by very harsh laws.

This is not shariah, but is oppression. Just like the Taliban claimed to implement shariah,but in reality this was anything but shariah!

Would this more Islamic government charge a jizya tax on minorities?

Please refer to my larger post - right now pakistan is mainly secular as both muslims and non-muslims pay the same tax - therefore, to impose an additional Jizya tax upon the non-muslims would be unfair.

And if you support an Islamic form of governance, then you should not be having any problems with whatever Taliban are doing now or what they did in Swat when that peace deal was on. They were awarding quick justice as per Sharia, guilty were being executed on the spot or flogged in public.

Taliban were not implementing Shariah!

Taleban are Implementing Jahelia in the name of Islam:

watch all parts, if you are trully interested, about 20min.

 

[fhassan]

And how exactly are you going to establish such a system in Pakistan today, in practical terms? I guess I had asked this question to another poster as well, but no one answered.

Allah only grants people good and pious leaders if they are deserving of them. Right now Pakistan is in a sad state of affairs, and things will only improve if the people will it.

Inshallah, one day, with the arrival of Imam Mahdi the Muslims will unite and the caliphate will be re-established - only then ca a real system of shariah be implemented. Ie with good pious leaders.

I have posted this because people have called the Jizya "pathetic", and have succumbed to anti-Islamic propaganda.

PS – peacekeeper, you still haven’t replied to my post on this thread where you claimed that that Quran is very violent:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ill-arab-men-women-children-during-war-2.html

I plan to discuss “violent” passages from the Quran with you, and even sent you a pm asking you to answer for yourself.

I am still waiting.., please answer the Question I posed and we can continue to have a nice discussion on that thread too.

On this thread, I would like you to go through post 28 and would like you to defend what you wrote. If you disagree, please bring forth your evidences

 

[muse]

Obviously these Muslim people don't understand the true meaning of Islam. It is people's problem, not Islam.

Interesting responses to a tragic situation. I am struck by how many responses defend the kind of understanding of Islam that seems to animate the haters in Pakistani society. This problem has not so much to do with Islam as much as it has to do with a particular kind of religiosity, a religiosity in which outward appearances are more important than the core ethics and morality of religion whose animation of which we understand as the behaviour of Muslims and
momins.

Everything will be OK when the Mahdi comes or if there was a caliphate this would not happen -- unfortunately these are exactly the kinds of attitudes that result in such tragedies.

Ones religious convictions are one's own business, not the business of others or the state - it is precisely because many in Pakistani society choose to reject the idea that one's religious convictions are one's own business, that we have these sad events repeated -- a Muslim is better than a Christian? or a Hindu? Or a Buddhists? Isn't this the responsibility of God ?? Is God to be allowed no role in His heaven, will Islamist ideology even deny Him that??

A Muslim must be a Momim, is that not so? Is rejecting others any part of being a Muslim or a Momim?

Obviously these Muslim people don't understand the true meaning of Islam. It is people's problem, not Islam

.

Sir, religion is what it's adherents practice. If the adherents of religion do not practice religion, can we then not say that such a religion does not exist?? Religion cannot be just a label, if one is not motivated by, has not internalized the ethics and morality which is the core of the Guidance, can we not assert that either these are not adherents or there is something deficient in the understanding of religion?

Mahdi or Khalifa will not make a better muslim, that only a individual free muslim can CHOOSE to be.

 

[Durran3]

Couldn't have said it better Muse

Having a girlfriend is WRONG
Sexually position is WRONG
Forcing religion is WRONG
Killing is WRONG
Before Marriage is UNACCEPTABLE

I think, these brothers were angry by using their sister. It is also ridiculous that Muslim girl accepted being girlfriend with the guy. Huh?

Everything is messing up !

Obviously these Muslim people don't understand the true meaning of Islam. It is people's problem, not Islam. Well said!!

I seriously laughed at this.. Its wrong!! fine.. but are you a judge, God, or a Lawyer to charge them of indecency? What gives you the moral authority to hurt or punish them? The fact the girl herself was having sex with the man makes it their personal/private matter and not something the government or you have any role in. Unless she was being raped which apparently wasn't the case. You can criticize them but are under no authority to take action against them.

Love has no boundaries and can happen between anyone at anytime be it of any color/race/religion so no its not ridiculous that she accepted him, on the other hand its ridiculous people like you who make this a big issue without respecting the other persons personal/private space. Just let people live and let live unless and until they pose a threat to the community or to you. Why is that so hard? Or is it necessary for you to indulge yourself in other peoples personal matter like an old housewife who has nothing better to do. I am sure adults know whats good/bad for them and are free to make their own choices.

The more you focus on individual differences the more hatred/violence is going to take place and this isn't strictly adhering to Islam but all religions who forcefully want people to stay within their community.