Christian death toll spiking in India. Arson, massacre, state involvement,2002 again?

[DarkStar]

DS, I have high regards for you from the posts that I have seen of you. This comment takes that a notch down.

You make so many claims here. Tell me, Is Pakistan 96-97% Muslim or not?

If it is, that means there are hardly any minorities left. In a population of 170 million even 3% would mean a good number but that doesn't take away from the basic fact that there are little minorities left in Pakistan.

According to the latest census, Pakistan is 96.28 percent Muslim.

You're right, there are hardly any minorities left due to emigration at Partition. But my point was, that the minorities that are left in Pakistan, enjoy an unrivalled status in south asia, as minorities which are fully integrated, and have a political voice and political clout far above their numbers.

In INdia, on the other hand, Muslims are under represented in most spheres of life, except in maybe the Arts and Sports, where sheer talent sees them through.

Although officially an islamic nation, I'd say our attitude towards our minorities would put most so called secularists to shame.

 

[Vinod2070]

According to the latest census, Pakistan is 96.28 percent Muslim.

You're right, there are hardly any minorities left due to emigration at Partition. But my point was, that the minorities that are left in Pakistan, enjoy an unrivalled status in south asia, as minorities which are fully integrated, and have a political voice and political clout far above their numbers.

In INdia, on the other hand, Muslims are under represented in most spheres of life, except in maybe the Arts and Sports, where sheer talent sees them through.

Although officially an islamic nation, I'd say our attitude towards our minorities would put most so called secularists to shame.

Good for you, if that is true. I have no intention to throw mud on your nation just to satisfy my ego.

You need to understand (that is if you want to in the first place) the history of the Hindu-Muslim tensions in the subcontinent. Then how would the partition effect that. Then the fact that despite the terrible wounds of partition, India had a Muslim president within 1.5 decades. They are represented in all fields. Business, trade, Science, Music, Arts, Movies, sports you name it and you will find several Indian Muslim achievers, may be more than Pakistan in many fields.

If they are under-represented in many fields, would you consider for a moment that Muslims may need to do some introspection too for that? Why are they so successful in some fields and not in others? Is it just the so called discrimination or may be their own social backwardness in many cases?

See, no one denies that Muslims are at a low rung in India. What we need is a clear diagnosis that will facilitate a recovery plan.

What I see here is what Pakistanis want to believe which is far from the truth.

 

[DarkStar]

I was waiting for you to say that. Yes, muslims are bakward. And its their own fault.

You see, they lag behind in education, because they dont want to be educated.

They don't get places in many top educational institutions because they really don't want to progress.

They are not many in the police service, because they wouldn't like the chance to make some "ghoos" money.

They certainly don't want to be civil servants...Who wants a cushy job for life, eh?

As for sanitation, they lag behind because they are ideologically opposed to flush toilets.

And farming? They'd prefer to be farm hands in bihar, than actually apply for govt distributed land.

And of course, the muslim wouldn't dream of being included in the "Quota" system. That is only for scheduled casts. They'll just be treated like scheduled castes, but not get the govt concessions due to them.


A few high profile token "success stories" will not mask the realities, as you yourself have admitted.

Have many of these muslims in high places ever spoken up for their community? Not a word has ever been heard from them. How could they? We'd see how long they would last in their respective fields if they ever spoke up. But then you'd say its the muslims' own fault, for having such people?

It's funny how the victims are being blamed for their own victimhood.

 

[Vinod2070]

I was waiting for you to say that. Yes, muslims are bakward. And its their own fault.

You see, they lag behind in education, because they dont want to be educated.

They don't get places in many top educational institutions because they really don't want to progress.

They are not many in the police service, because they wouldn't like the chance to make some "ghoos" money.

They certainly don't want to be civil servants...Who wants a cushy job for life, eh?

As for sanitation, they lag behind because they are ideologically opposed to flush toilets.

As for farming. They'd prefer to be farm hands in bihar, than actually apply for govt distributed land.

And of course, let the muslim not benefit from the Quota system. That is only for scheduled casts. They'll just be treated like scheduled castes, but not get the govt concessions due to them.


A few high profile token "success stories" will not mask the realities, as you yourselves have admitted.

Have any of these muslims in high places ever spoken up for their community? Not a word has ever been heard from them. But then you'd say its the muslims' own fault, for having such people?

It's funny how the victims are being blamed for their own victimhood.

What if I tell you Indian Muslims are more educated than the Pakistanis?

What if you see the condition of Indians and Pakistanis in the UK. How Indians top in the education and are a model and successful community while Pakistanis lag behind. almost at the bottom.

Who would you like to blame for that? The UK government and society?

 

[DarkStar]

You are not comparing like with like. I do agree that on the face of it, Indian's in the UK are achieving more in terms of education than Pakistanis. But you must consider the type of Pakistani immigrants which make the majority in the UK. Most are from villages in Kashmir, mainly districts mirpur, kotli and ravlakot, which were not known for their educational structures due to the influx of refugees and other matters. Because of cultural reasons, they have lagged behind the Indian community. This is because many indians who came to the UK were originally well off and educated.

However, this is changing fast, with new immigrants from Pakistan being highly educated.

Now if i were to compare Pakistanis to immigrants from the INdian punjab, then we'd score higher. Fact of the matter is, most well off educated Pakistanis have a very high standar of living in Pakistan, so wouldn't dream of leaving their country.

 

[DarkStar]

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[Awesome]

Why is that? Do you think GOD is so intolerant that he will punish someone just because he wants to pray to him in a different way? Or even may be not pray at all.

Why should that happen? Why does GOD need the people to pray in certain way even if they are not being good human beings otherwise?

I just believe that they will, and I don't want to answer you why I believe what I believe. I believe so, and you can't do squat about it. Moving on, and less topic derailment.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are not comparing like with like. I do agree that on the face of it, Indian's in the UK are achieving more in terms of education than Pakistanis. But you must consider the type of Pakistani immigrants which make the majority in the UK. Most are from villages in Kashmir, mainly districts mirpur, kotli and ravlakot, which were not known for their educational structures due to the influx of refugees and other matters. Because of cultural reasons, they have lagged behind the Indian community. This is because many indians who came to the UK were originally well off and educated.

However, this is changing fast, with new immigrants from Pakistan being highly educated.

Now if i were to compare Pakistanis to immigrants from the INdian punjab, then we'd score higher. Fact of the matter is, most well off educated Pakistanis have a very high standar of living in Pakistan, so wouldn't dream of leaving their country.

Agreed. So there could be reasons behind some communities lagging behind!

Just apply the same thought process to the case of Indian Muslims and things will be more clear.

 

[DarkStar]

Yes, but its no good blaming the communities for opportunities that they don't have, when others do have them.

If ever there was a case of affirmative action needed, this is it.

Of course if you don't care about alienation of minorities, then keep the status quo. Though you shouldn't expect all members of every minority to stay loyal to your secular federation, when they feel dis enfranchised and neglected.

After all the business in teh north east and punjab, do you guys still not get it?

All you have to do is treat people right.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes, but its no good blaming the communities for opportunities that they don't have, when others do have them.

If ever there was a case of affirmative action needed, this is it.

Of course if you don't care about alienation of minorities, then keep the status quo. Though you shouldn't expect all members of every minority to stay loyal to your secular federation, when they feel dis enfranchised and neglected.

After all the business in teh north east and punjab, do you guys still not get it?

All you have to do is treat people right.

Yes, agreed.

Things can always be better than they are.

But do you expect every community or person that feels wronged has a right to harm their own country or society? Would you agree if some tribals in Pakistan get alienated because of whatever reasons and start attacking Pakistani cities?

These are two different aspects.

Every community has a right to demand their fair share in a society.

No community has a right to turn treacherous or to terror.

 

[DarkStar]

Yes. The words loyalty, motherland, desh bhakti sound very nice and idealistic.

How would you explain those words to those people who lost relatives, and whose mothers and sisters were gang raped during the gujrat riots?

For some people, who become brutalised by violence, these words end up meaning nothing.

I am not trying to excuse or justify, just to seek an explanation. Nothing happens in a void, every action generates a reaction.

But even this "treacherous and terror" community, is not that at all. The majority of minorities, muslims and non muslims, are still perfectly peaceful, resigned to their fate despite what they face. At least the radical few manage to get the mainstream to enter into discussion over such subjects.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes. The words loyalty, motherland, desh bhakti sound very nice and idealistic.

How would you explain those words to those people who lost relatives, and whose mothers and sisters were gang raped during the gujrat riots?

For some people, who become brutalised by violence, these words end up meaning nothing.

I am not trying to excuse or justify, just to seek an explanation. Nothing happens in a void, every action generates a reaction.

But even this "treacherous and terror" community, is not that at all. The majority of minorities, muslims and non muslims, are still perfectly peaceful, resigned to their fate despite what they face. At least the radical few manage to get the mainstream to enter into discussion over such subjects.

No one is casting aspersion on any community here. So, while giving you the benefit of the doubt, I don't feel that any community in India is treacherous.

Some radical members of the community (who are also the most vocal and hijack the agenda) is another matter.

If you talk of action and reaction, where does it start? Do we go all the way to Bin Qasim?

But the fact is, we need to move on. All of us. Within our countries, within our region, within our continent and within our world.

Let's forget these narrow differences. We are all one if you go just beneath the surface.

Well looks like a political speech but I do feel that way.

Religion should be just a personal matter and does not define the entirety of one's being.

If it does for some, it makes them extremely narrow minded people, almost bigots.

 

[Vinod2070]

I just believe that they will, and I don't want to answer you why I believe what I believe. I believe so, and you can't do squat about it. Moving on, and less topic derailment.

Exactly. So you can do swat about why some in India have a problem with the forcible conversions.

We are just having a debate here. You want to pick and choose what should be discussed. Good showing!

 

[DarkStar]

Well, why not go before that, and start with Raja Dahirs abduction of muslim females from sri lanka.

We are talking about contemporary issues, not past history. Why can't you admit that the gujrat killings were the work of Hindu extremists, and has caused communal disharmony. Why can't you condemn the terrorists in your community?

We condemn the terrorists in our midst till we are blue in the face, yet Indian's always refrain from self criticism. Remember, it is only a great nation which has the courage to criticise itself.

 

[DarkStar]

Exactly. So you can do swat about why some in India have a problem with the forcible conversions.

We are just having a debate here. You want to pick and choose what should be discussed. Good showing!

In the mighty secular democracy called India, with state institutions heavily infiltrated by the RSS and VHP, do you seriously want us to believe that Hindus can be forcibly converted to Christianity?

What a ludicrous and preposterous suggestion.

The only thing forcible were the reconversions of christians to hinduism carried out by the late swami laxmananda.

Of course your bile, anger and violence will not be directed on those Hindu maoists who acually killed him. INstead, the defenceless christian population will be hounded and killed.