Chinese Top Guns

[Martian2]

Chinese Top Guns

China's Golden Helmet competition is modeled on the US Top Gun school, which was defunded in 1996 by the US Navy and no longer exists. Source: An Era Ends in San Diego as Navy's Top Guns Take Off | Los Angeles Times

Chinese Golden Helmet pilots are the new Top Guns.

"空军金头盔飞行员 PLA Air Force 'Golden Helmet Award' Pilots"
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China uses VR for 3D pilot flight training

Elite Chinese pilots receive 200 hours per year of actual flight training. Supplementary training is provided by VR. In contrast, the average American pilot receives only 120 hours per year of flight training.

 

[gambit]

...US Top Gun school, which was defunded in 1996 by the US Navy and no longer exists.

Really...???

Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center

NSAWC consolidated three commands into a single command structure on July 11, 1996, to enhance aviation training effectiveness. The Naval Strike Warfare Center (STRIKE "U") based at NAS Fallon since 1984, was joined with the Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN) and the Carrier Airborne Early Warning Weapons School (TOPDOME) which both moved from NAS Miramar as a result of a (BRAC) Base Realignment and Closure decision in 1993.

TOPGUN was integrated into a more comprehensive training command structure. The core of what TOPGUN was -- still exists.

The move is 20 yrs old.

 

[Martian2]

Really...???

Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center

TOPGUN was integrated into a more comprehensive training command structure. The core of what TOPGUN was -- still exists.

The move is 20 yrs old.

The new training is mostly "strike training," which means bombing runs. In contrast, the old Top Gun school was mostly about air superiority. They are two very different things.

After you graduate from the new Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center, you are a Top Bomber. You are NOT a Top Gun.

From your citation:

"Training:
There are two distinct areas of NSAWC training using the FRTC extensively - carrier air wing (CVW) training and the WTI courses. Air wing training brings together all of an air wing's squadrons for four weeks, providing strike planning and execution training opportunities in a dynamic, realistic, scenario-driven simulated wartime environment."

 

[gambit]

The new training is mostly "strike training," which means bombing runs. In contrast, the old Top Gun school was mostly about air superiority. They are two very different things.

After you graduate from the new Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center, you are a Top Bomber.

From your citation:

"Training:
There are two distinct areas of NSAWC training using the FRTC extensively - carrier air wing (CVW) training and the WTI courses. Air wing training brings together all of an air wing's squadrons for four weeks, providing strike planning and execution training opportunities in a dynamic, realistic, scenario-driven simulated wartime environment."

You may know how to read sources, but you lack understanding of what you read, namely because you have no experience but you think you know better.

But if you want to parse words, it will still not be good for you. It is 'Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center', of which air-air combat ala the old TOPGUN still exists.

United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TOPGUN is a department (N7) under NSAWC, as are several other formerly independent weapons schools: the Carrier Airborne Early Warning Weapons School ( or CAEWWS [pronounced 'cause']), JTAC (run by SEALs), "Strike U" (N5), Airborne Electronic Attack (Callsign HAVOC), and Maritime Weapons Schools.

It is no different than what the USAF did with its 'Fighter Weapons School', which turned into the simpler 'Weapons School' but became doctrinally more complex because the school now incorporate bombers, AWACS, UAVs, and even enlisted weapons specialists.

Factsheets : United States Air Force Weapons School
USAF Weapons School: The Challenge | Fighter Sweep

By graduation, the new Weapons Officer is expected to know darn near everything that applies to the Air Force’s cross-domain warfighting capabilities, and possess the ability to solve any problem, under any conditions, with little to no advanced warning. Just ask the four B-1 Weapons Officers who were told to put together Operation Odyssey Dawn over Libya…and were only given four hours to do so before they had to brief the National Command Authority with their plan. No big deal, right?!

Four B-1 WUGs came up with a battle plan in four hrs to brief the President. You think any of your Golden Showers pilots can do better ?

In other words, the entire US military aviation training program evolved according to technology and tactics. Your PLA is still behind.

 

[Martian2]

You may know how to read sources, but you lack understanding of what you read, namely because you have no experience but you think you know better.

But if you want to parse words, it will still not be good for you. It is 'Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center', of which air-air combat ala the old TOPGUN still exists.

United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is no different than what the USAF did with its 'Fighter Weapons School', which turned into the simpler 'Weapons School' but became doctrinally more complex because the school now incorporate bombers, AWACS, UAVs, and even enlisted weapons specialists.

Factsheets : United States Air Force Weapons School
USAF Weapons School: The Challenge | Fighter Sweep

Four B-1 WUGs came up with a battle plan in four hrs to brief the President. You think any of your Golden Showers pilots can do better ?

In other words, the entire US military aviation training program evolved according to technology and tactics. Your PLA is still behind.

Look up "strike training." It'll say bombing runs.

If you don't know the difference between "air superiority," "strike," and "multi-role" fighters then I can't help you.

They are three completely distinct categories and you dismiss the differences as "parsing words?" Are you kidding me?

 

[gambit]

Look up "strike training." It'll say bombing runs.

If you don't know the difference between "air superiority," "strike," and "multi-role" fighters then I can't help you.

How about from the chief himself ?

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

The model for training in Navy tactical aviation is we train the trainer; that starts with our weapons schools, where we grow weapons and tactics instructors. A typical student comes out of his first fleet assignment to go through the nine- to 10-week TOPGUN course. He then goes to one of the weapons schools, followed by a tour in the fleet as a squadron training officer, with primary responsibility for tactics and warfighter training.

TOPGUN was a school, now it is a course. Do you understand now ?

 

[Martian2]

How about from the chief himself ?

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

TOPGUN was a school, now it is a course. Do you understand now ?

No. The official description on the Naval website is controlling.

An offhand comment does not change the official course description of "strike planning and execution training."

After 1996, the US military decided WVR combat wasn't important, because of stealth. Thus, the focus shifted to strike training. The US military never anticipated true fifth-generation fighters in the Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31.

 

[gambit]

No. The official description on the Naval website is controlling.

An offhand comment does not change the official course description of "strike planning and training."

You are so desperate to make a name for yourself that you defied the laws of physics, of common sense, of established military doctrines, and no surprise, you would deny even those who actually work in the subject -- an active duty admiral -- that they know better than you do.

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

How is the center’s aggressor force trained and utilized?

We have an adversary syllabus associated with the TOPGUN class, so we put a number of folks through that. Many are reservists, who fly many of our adversary aircraft, including one [squadron] stationed here at Fallon.

Hard to get any clearer than that.

What does 'adversary air' mean ? Am sure even the Chinese version have air-air superiority training, right ?

 

[Martian2]

You are so desperate to make a name for yourself that you defied the laws of physics, of common sense, of established military doctrines, and no surprise, you would deny even those who actually work in the subject -- an active duty admiral -- that they know better than you do.

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

Hard to get any clearer than that.

You seem to be ignorant of history.

The Joint Strike Fighter project was awarded to Lockheed Martin in 2001. I think the original IOC was supposed to be around 2012.

Without the cost overruns and project delays, the US Navy had anticipated to have stealth aircraft in the air by now. Top Gun was viewed as archaic. Thus, the focus on strike training.

 

[gambit]

So according to our resident Chinese military expert, the US Navy TOPGUN program is dead...

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

The United States has not faced an air-to-air challenge since Vietnam – how has that affected your training?

We don’t train as if there will never be another air-to-air encounter; it’s still part of our syllabus. Whether you plan to do so or not, there are [enemy] aircraft that will force you into a visual environment. So that is still an integrated part of our training.

The admiral say -- with no reservations -- that the USN will still consider air-air combat a vital part of training despite the fact that combined US air power have not faced any credible adversary air threats.

But our resident Chinese military expert says the admiral is a liar.

 

[Martian2]

So according to our resident Chinese military expert, the US Navy TOPGUN program is dead...

Interview with Rear Adm. Mark A. Vance, Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) | Defense Media Network

I never claimed there was zero air-to-air training. I'm claiming the focus is on strike training, which is clearly stated on the Navy's website. I also gave you the historic reason for the shift due to the JSF program.

The admiral is using a shorthand (Top Gun), because he's trying to convey the idea of premium training to the public. He did not want to explain in detail that the training had shifted to "strike" missions, because of the anticipated stealthy JSF.

 

[gambit]

I never claimed there was zero air-to-air training. I'm claiming the focus is on strike training, which is clearly stated on the Navy's website. I also gave you the historic reason for the shift due to the JSF program.

Ahh...You got busted for incompetence, as usual, so now you are tap dancing with words, as usual.

I would tell you to give up, Marty, but I know better. Your ego is too big to admit you are wrong.

 

[Martian2]

Ahh...You got busted for incompetence, as usual, so now you are tap dancing with words, as usual.

I would tell you to give up, Marty, but I know better. Your ego is too big to admit you are wrong.

Plain English. 1. The Navy website spelled out clearly the focus of the training on strike missions.

Historical Cycle. 2. The historic shift away from WVR is something that we had seen before. The US military had stopped focusing on WVR training before the Vietnam War, because they thought air-to-air missiles had rendered WVR unnecessary.

Stealth. 3. The stealth JSF is responsible for the thinking that air superiority training is again unnecessary.

When they reopen Top Gun school, you can claim air superiority equivalent training. Not now.

 

[Martian2]

Alert...Alert...Alert...!!!

More Chinese members need to give thanks to Marty to save his face.

I disagreed with you for three reasons. The readers can make up their own minds.

 

[gambit]

I disagreed with you for three reasons. The readers can make up their own minds.

Sure. I predict the Chinese members will go with you and call the American admiral a liar. The more objective and intelligent readers will see that the core of TOPGUN never disappeared, it just became part of a more comprehensive training program.

Viper U At NAS Fallon | Code One Magazine

NSAWC is split into several divisions, including personnel resources; intelligence; operations; maintenance; plans and programs; command control, communications, computers, and intelligence; training and standardization; and ranges. The training and standardization division includes carrier air wing training and strike fighter tactics instructor (SFTI) training, better known as Top Gun.

SFTI, or Top Gun, training is still widely perceived as addressing air-to-air tactics only. The curriculum changed in the early 1990s to include air-to-ground tactics. The ten-week course graduates strike fighter tactics instructors who return to fighter squadrons to train fellow aircrews in air-to-air and air-to-ground tactics. An SFTI graduate is roughly equivalent to a US Air Force weapon system officer.

So according to the USN, the school known as TOPGUN was closed and the training program became part of a more comprehensive program designed to create a better pilot capable of going from an air-air combatant to a ground strike combatant on a moment's notice.

But according to a Chinese who never served a day in the military, that mean TOPGUN itself as a training philosophy is gone, and that since the PLAAF is seemingly training its pilots to be air-air combatants only, the PLAAF pilots are superior, despite the fact that Chinese military aviation have not even 1/10th the institutional knowledge of the Americans.