Chinese Freedom!

[kaliven]

hi Salim, Hukou System is far from your acknowlege.I partly agree with the point of ashfaque. It is an efficient orgnization system. This system has no relateship with so-called communism's devil. It can be traced to 300 years B.C. Old chinese governor use it to orgnize or "control" his people. Years and years, it became more and more complicated and mature, especially in 70s of 20 century.

It is something like caste system in india. I admit that it is partly unreasonable system. But Chinese governors use this system to goven their people for thousands years. And in the recent years, the system became more and more weak because of the impact of market economy. So I think things will go better. Economical factors will push it to the way to die. I am very optimistic for that.

 

[shchinese]

The most interesting thing is Indian are crying for Chinese freedom.

hey, OP, how is you Land Crashing Aircraft going?

 

[muse]

Return of Chinese civilisation
Gulfnews: Return of Chinese civilisation

09/16/2008 08:28 AM | By Nathan Gardels, Special to Gulf News



When scholars from across China gathered in Shanghai recently in the afterglow of the Olympics to assess their country's role in the world, their pride shone as bright as the waxing Mid-Autumn Festival moon.

More than a patriotic triumph, the "best games ever" were seen as a knockout blow against a West on the wane after 500 years.

To those charged with thinking professionally about China's future, the Beijing Olympics marked the advent of a new era in which the Middle Kingdom would emerge again out of the mists of history - not as a hegemonic superpower, but as the superior civilisation in a post-American world.

Whether one agrees with this view or not, it is unquestionably the driving spirit behind the powershift in the world order today and bears a close hearing in the West.

Among the political heavyweights at the third annual World Forum on China Studies, convened in a monumental Stalin-era exhibition hall now dwarfed by a towering sea of neon-rimmed, Godzilla-scale skyscrapers, was Zheng Bijian.

He is the former vice-chair of the Central Party School, confidant of the current Communist Party leadership and author of China's "peaceful rise" doctrine.

Zheng argued that China's dream of escaping Western subjugation since the Opium War (1840-42) had finally been realised in the "new awakening" of the past 30 years of "reform and opening up".

Now awakened, the whole nation was engaged in sorting through "a hundred schools of thought" about the way ahead in a globalised economy.

Indicative of the civilisational time frame in which the Chinese see themselves, Zheng compared this historical moment to the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 B.C.) and the Warring States Period (475-221 B.C.)

In the view of this party ideologist, an awakened China had proven the superiority of its way over the grand Western theories of "a clash of civilisations" and triumph of the West at "the end of history" through solving the "riddle of the century" by abruptly lifting hundreds of millions of its people out of poverty and underdevelopment.

This success had proven, beyond any empirical doubt, the neo-Confucian wisdom of Deng Xiaoping to "seek truth from facts" and, step by step, like feeling one's way across a shallow river, "constructing socialism" in tune with local characteristics and rising in peaceful development.

This offers the world a third way between the models of conflict or domination that emanate from the Western mind.

The reawakened Middle Kingdom, according to Zheng, "would not be puffed up with self-importance, divorcing itself from economic globalisation and modernising with the door closed".

Nor would the new China "belittle itself" with dependence on the West but "act independently with the initiative in our own hands."

This new China, Zheng argued, would resist the path of the rise of the Western powers "with their colonialist plundering of the world's resources in the process of industrialisation" as well as the ill-fated paths of the "military nations such as Germany and Japan who waged wars to reshape the world".

The new China would also avoid seeking superpower hegemony like the former Soviet Union "under the cover of the so-called world revolution".

Instead, based on its remarkable success, the new China would seek an "open, non-exclusive and harmonious" relationship with all others to "mutually open up the route to world development".

Resurgent

Lest the resurgent Confucian sentiments behind this worldview might be lost on the rest of the world, other prominent thinkers underlined the civilisational character of China's project.

Zhang Xianglong of Beijing University's philosophy department highlighted the "non-universalist" nature of Confucianism and thus the emphasis on truth being grounded in particular, concrete circumstances instead of universally applicable standards - whether the Western concept of universal human rights and democracy or the Marxist idea of universal laws of development.

Because of its non-universalism, Confucian civilisation seeks "pragmatic discourse" with others following their own path rather than seeking to lord it over them.

Tan Chung, who for many years was the dean of the Centre for East Asian Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University, views the Beijing Olympics not just as the coming-out party for the new China, but for the reappearance of the Confucian sensibility in world affairs.

In Tan's view, China, as has been the case historically, is not interested in maximising power through the conquest of territory like a superpower, but in the integration of civilisations through harmonious co-existence.

Tan is particularly struck by the 5,000 years of harmonious coexistence between India and China - marred only by the 20 years between 1958 and 1978 when both civilisations were infected with Western nationalist notions - as well as by the fusion of cultures in Central Asia known as "Serinda" or "Indochina" in Southeast Asia.

"In the Western hemisphere," as Tan labels it, "all the brilliant ancient civilisations such as Babylonia, Egypt, Greece and Rome have become ruins without being handed down. This was because there was no 'geocivilisational paradigm' among them. The 'geopolitical paradigm' pushed them to scramble for territory and indulge in mutual destruction. The basic difference between Eastern and Western hemispheres lies here."

For Tan, the success of the Olympics will allow China to "bid farewell to the sorrowful feelings of history, discard the pursuit of power and return to its civilisational vocation of advocating a culture of harmony."

Of course, no one need be naive about what the influence of a neo-Confucian China means for Western values in the coming century.

And it goes without saying that the exercise of Confucian authority is not beyond the brutal enforcement of internal harmony against rebellious children, as everyone remembers from Tiananmen Square in 1989.

But it would be equally foolish for the West, whether out of ignorance or cynicism, to dismiss the profound civilisational impulse behind China's rehabilitated self-image. For anyone who cares to look, it is written all over the proud face of post-Olympic China.

Nathan Gardels is the editor in chief of NPQ and Global Services of Tribune Media Services.

 

[Logic note]

Who said Greek and Rome civilization perished ?? the modern civilization takes all the teachings or democracy and intellectual freedom and continued to flourish ..
Renaissance started when people in west started to see the Greek and Roman intellect ,, which provided them the strength to overcome the chains of blind monster "Faith" or christianity .

China relies on the same west to flourish by servicing the west .. by providing the cheap labour .. by creating the factories for the western consumption .. .. and at what cost ? the cost of its own individuals ..

but its a perception of an indian ..
after all given the option of "take IPod & Shut up" and " compromise on a cheap radio but speak up" Indians choose the later one and Chinese the first one ..

which is better ? wait for time to tell

 

[muse]

It seems the only "speaking up" Indians do is when they can denigrate others. Inside India an ocean of problems left to be solved, but no speaking up there, just "speaking up" when jealousy passes for critique.

China are your fellow Asian, they can be your best friends, with China you can help rebuild all Asia, you can create lives of dignity for the Idian peoples even as you help others to build lives of dignity and keep imperial powers out of Asian security.

China is succeeding and we can all look to her achievement, India is also succeeding, and that is good, together in the coming years, with their will and their power, all Asia can be free.

 

[Logic note]

hi Salim, Hukou System is far from your acknowlege.I partly agree with the point of ashfaque. It is an efficient orgnization system. This system has no relateship with so-called communism's devil. It can be traced to 300 years B.C. Old chinese governor use it to orgnize or "control" his people. Years and years, it became more and more complicated and mature, especially in 70s of 20 century.

It is something like caste system in india. I admit that it is partly unreasonable system. But Chinese governors use this system to goven their people for thousands years. And in the recent years, the system became more and more weak because of the impact of market economy. So I think things will go better. Economical factors will push it to the way to die. I am very optimistic for that.

Caste system and Hukou are totally diffrent ..
Caste system in remenesance of past .. and government is using law and power to erase it ..
Hukou system is used by Government to develop cheap labour .. to keep the cost of production down ..
the individual will migrate to city to work but he wont get the social benefit .. and thus the system benefits at the cost of individual ..

 

[Flintlock]

It seems the only "speaking up" Indians do is when they can denigrate others. Inside India an ocean of problems left to be solved, but no speaking up there, just "speaking up" when jealousy passes for critique.

As someone on this forum once said, we try to discuss our problems among ourselves rather than criticize the country on "foreign" forums.

Even though the mods here try to make the atmosphere as conducive to a fair discussion as possible, there is a fine line between criticism and ridicule that is often crossed and vitiates the atmosphere.

China are your fellow Asian, they can be your best friends, with China you can help rebuild all Asia, you can create lives of dignity for the Idian peoples even as you help others to build lives of dignity and keep imperial powers out of Asian security.

China is a closed country with a less-than-transparent foreign policy. It is best to adopt a policy of cautious friendliness rather than "best friends" approach.

As much as you may like to suck up to China Muse, the country has quite a large number of problems with do merit discussion.

China is succeeding and we can all look to her achievement, India is also succeeding, and that is good, together in the coming years, with their will and their power, all Asia can be free.

 

[muse]

As you don't "speak up" against your own problems, you find it difficult to empathize with the problems of others.

We all have problems, but when you have closed your mind, you will be unable to empathize.

Imagine that a great civilization was bought to it's knees with opium (india played a part in that, but it was enslaved itself) and imagine what a achievement it is to rise, not as hostile, but as confident and friendly - I have been to China and have seen it change and yes, you are right, I am impressed by that human spirit . In the end, it's about human beings and achievement.

India too has a place among the success stories and her achievement is no less compelling. You do not have to like China, but I found that Chinese do not think of India as open or closed, but as a neighbor.

 

[gpit]

Caste system and Hukou are totally diffrent ..
Caste system in remenesance of past .. and government is using law and power to erase it ..
Hukou system is used by Government to develop cheap labour .. to keep the cost of production down ..

We hear your funny logic: Caste system has a moral reason to exist, Hukou doesn't.

the individual will migrate to city to work but he wont get the social benefit .. and thus the system benefits at the cost of individual ..

Why on earth those individuals want migrate to the city in the first place if the city is a hell to them? Please enlighten us.

 

[Flintlock]

As you don't "speak up" against your own problems, you find it difficult to empathize with the problems of others.

I'd be happy to discuss, but sorry, not with Jana's (and others) annoying posts floating around.

You give respect, you take respect. Simple.

We all have problems, but when you have closed your mind, you will be unable to empathize.

Again, I'll be happy to empathize, provided the same empathy is shown by the other party. Otherwise threads simply turn into an "lets abuse India" orgy.

India too has a place among the success stories and her achievement is no less compelling. You do not have to like China, but I found that Chinese do not think of India as open or closed, but as a neighbor.

Well, the open hostility displayed by Chinese netizens towards Indians belies your claim, but never mind that.

Also, the fact that China is a closed country is not a matter of opinion.

It is a fact: China has not risen peacefully at all.
The history of China in the last century is one of violence and death on a scale seldom surpassed in human history.

 

[muse]

lol - take it easy assasino (root hashashin - hash smokers) - China friend, friend good.

If China and India friends, good for Pakistan, good for Asia. Two great peoples of the world friends, what can be better.

BTW, did you read that Ayeda Naqvi piece on the light a candle thread - good stuff - you know, the whole idea of lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness

 

[Logic note]

We hear your funny logic: Caste system has a moral reason to exist, Hukou doesn't.
.

You have a reading Problem ?? Read it properly .. I clearly said it is bad and thats why government is making law to erase it ..

Why on earth those individuals want migrate to the city in the first place if the city is a hell to them? Please enlighten us

Ask that poor fellow who migrate to make his living .. to find a job ..

 

[Flintlock]

lol - take it easy assasino (root hashashin - hash smokers) - China friend, friend good.

I am taking it easy. Just being a bit blunt that's all.

If China and India friends, good for Pakistan, good for Asia. Two great peoples of the world friends, what can be better.

Sure, I agree. But unfortunately, the devil is in the details.

BTW, did you read that Ayeda Naqvi piece on the light a candle thread - good stuff - you know, the whole idea of lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness

Either I didn't or I don't remember.

 

[Logic note]

It seems the only "speaking up" Indians do is when they can denigrate others. Inside India an ocean of problems left to be solved, but no speaking up there, just "speaking up" when jealousy passes for critique.
.

Maturity is required for a discussion .. when we discuss an issue Please use facts and maturity to discuss it ..
using emotion to vitiate the topic shows lack of maturity Muse ..

I spoke about the perception and the choice of Political system that we choose .. but you have to insert your emotions ..

China are your fellow Asian, they can be your best friends, with China you can help rebuild all Asia, you can create lives of dignity for the Idian peoples even as you help others to build lives of dignity and keep imperial powers out of Asian security.

China is succeeding and we can all look to her achievement, India is also succeeding, and that is good, together in the coming years, with their will and their power, all Asia can be free

Thanks for the advice ..

 

[kvLin]

You have a reading Problem ?? Read it properly .. I clearly said it is bad and thats why government is making law to erase it ..

So caste system is less mentionable when talking about human rights?

Do you know China is having an operation on it's social security system in order to protect the poor and rural migrant workers? do you know a new labour law has come into force since 1.1.2008?

Ask that poor fellow who migrate to make his living .. to find a job ..

how easily can ordinary indians find jobs in indian cities? what about rural migrants?

the core labour issue for China's migrant workers is the rising labour cost, and their lack of legal consciousness especially when employers violate labour law, not shortage of job opportunity. 10 years ago a monthly pay of 800-1000rbm(USD105-130) attracted a crowd of rural migrants into Baoan, the biggest industrial zone in Shenzhen, and now the bottom line has rised up to 1800rbm.

this is not only up to natural rising of labour cost,but also associated with the recent inflation and the abolishment of agricultural tax in 2006 which resumes interest for rural people to pursue agricultural production.

The same time when a migrant worker can not easily find a satisfying job, manufacturers are feeling anxious of their personnel lack. This is today's China.

Better not pose a China expert if you're not, though you look relatively acquainted among the indians here.