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Chinese elites don't think China will surpass the US, view the US positive

If you do believe a society is a complex system, that it should be organically operated instead of applying a top-down method by a group of elite, then i would assume you agree with what F. A. von Hayek's points, i.e., spontaneous order.

If you believe spontaneous order, then naturally you'll be more comfortable with different interested groups get involved in policy-making process. Voting is somewhat a result of a dynamic process.

To reach a social consensus, it needs public debate, it needs independent media (or not really independent, but different interested groups get a say, some louder, some quieter, but guaranteed everyone who want to make noise can do that, in such a world connected), in the end, it needs people to vote, to make a decision. Elites may and indeed do have greater flexibility to shape the agenda, but they should never given the rights to be the only group that can think, speak and decide.

If you really think society/nation is a vivid organic thing, you should refrain from promoting the dangerous idea that an organic thing will operate like a machine. If we shouldn't given the privilege to have a voice, we can't speak out what we think and try to influence the decision making, then what's the point for we to think? Furthermore, if thinking independently is not needed, what's the point to be human being. Are the MASS simply a group of primitive animals that only need to be feeded.

The fact I choose not to let other people to vote on what treatment should be applied to me is essentially that my free will gotta to decide what's good for me. While in public policy making, it affects everybody, hence everybody should be given the right to voice out. Just that simple. We have medical professional trained to treat us. Unfortunately, politics is a more difficult discipline than medicine. None of our Politiburo members are trained to rule, and there is also no therapy can be taught to them. That's the major difference.

Instead of the unfit doctor analogy, socity/nation is more similar to a corporation, we pay tax, buy the shares, our benefit are at the stake, hence we get to vote. We hire the government to serve us, not pay money to be muted.

BTW, think tanks are useful, it is fair to say think tank shapes almost all policies in Western countries. The differnece is, you got think tank to represent riches, to oppose tax reform, to advance unilaterism, to defend free trade, you also got think tanks to promote civil rights, to emphasize criminal justice, to support big government and protectionism. They may be non-profit, but they have endowment, they have difference agenda, different power sphere in both policy making, academia, media, they have debates too. In the end, their influences are on the voters, and let they decide. That's why there are partisan tags on most of them.

While in our system, it is the government oversee limited debate, and make the decision. All think tanks are semi-offcial government branches or party branches, yes, they're also partisan, the major difference, is we only have one ruling party.

I applauds the technocrat government model which has brought China to its today's height. But it's time to think about how many people were left behind in the economic boom, how many civil rights/property rights has been blatantly trenched? It is fortunate we have an institution that currently on the right direction, and the momentum a one party system could generate is huge. Problem is, we get a great engine, where is the brake, where is the check and balance that we can rely on?

I apologize to non-Chinese members, this site isn't a very proper venue to discuss such irrelevant topics. But I'm quite annoyed by those people that are either arrogant self-claimed ruling elite or power-worship, ready to surrender their own minds and souls.
 
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we shouldn't given the privilege to have a voice, we can't speak out what we think and try to influence the decision making, then what's the point for we to think?

You can speak out (you are doing that right now), and so can I. What's the problem?

True, I can't choose who our Chief Executive is going to be, CY Leung got the job by appointment.

But so what? Who becomes the leader of any country is out of our hands anyway, just ask the millions of people who voted against Obama and Bush.

If I feel that we need universal suffrage, I will be the first one on the streets campaigning for it. Some of my friends are already doing that.

Right now, the real priorities are: Economic development, efficient governance, and rising living standards. Political liberties are secondary, and will come at a later stage of development.
 
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Democratic elections are the biggest fraud in history, it's a system to keep the masses happy thinking they have a say in politics, but corporations control democracies.

That's why I'm confident India will never surpass china, it's democracy is a burden on its development, you can buy elections and corporations control the parties.

In china the government has no escape route, you can't screw up and lose an election and hope to get back in after the other side screws up. You have no choice but to work for the people, not for corporations.
If the Chinese leaders cannot work for the best interests of the majority of the chinese people, then they lose their legitimacy.

In china, corruption is punished severely no matter who you are.
In india, corruption goes unpunished, I don't think anyone was punished for the commonwealth games farce, there was massive corruption.

Just compare the amazing success of the 2008 Beijing Olympics(a global event) vs the 2010 new Delhi commonwealth games farce (a smaller event).
That shows the difference between china and India, we are better and more efficient than in India in so many ways, it's not even funny. India should be honored they are even being mentioned in the same sentence as china.
 
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Democratic elections are the biggest fraud in history, it's a system to keep the masses happy thinking they have a say in politics, but corporations control democracies.

That's why I'm confident India will never surpass china, it's democracy is a burden on its development, you can buy elections and corporations control the parties.

In china the government has no escape route, you can't screw up and lose an election and hope to get back in after the other side screws up. You have no choice but to work for the people, not for corporations.
If the Chinese leaders cannot work for the best interests of the majority of the chinese people, then they lose their legitimacy.

In china, corruption is punished severely no matter who you are.
In india, corruption goes unpunished, I don't think anyone was punished for the commonwealth games farce, there was massive corruption.

Just compare the amazing success of the 2008 Beijing Olympics(a global event) vs the 2010 new Delhi commonwealth games farce (a smaller event).
That shows the difference between china and India, we are better and more efficient than in India in so many ways, it's not even funny. India should be honored they are even being mentioned in the same sentence as china.
Thank you for your honour :D
Just one question Dont you think too much power in single leadership for longer period of time over is dangerous specially if you can't do anything to control the person ???
I don't mean to troll but what happen during cultural revolution .... wasn't that mis-use of the power ? And what did you do to stop it at that time. Not after everything happened.
I agree India isn't doing great but we aren't bad either. Commonwealth was name spoiler but it was better than other commonwealths organised. Check that. And one with corruption charges is facing case.
Development philosophy is different in our and your country
 
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During election politicians say one thing. When they are in power, they say another thing. During mid-term they say another. When they leave office, they say yet another. - Deng XiaoPeng
 
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The problem now these days is that China simply does have a public relation going for her. Anything she or her academicians say are dismissed as Communist brainwash or propaganda. And they'll laugh at you when you claim the west is doing the same with their propaganda. The reason for that is they have people in the medias and across the social spectrum speak for each other in this 'good ole boy' network. This is their public relation and if you belong to them some of them will speak for you on different occasions and vice versa.

Take the Scarborough Shoal case as an example. All the paper you read outside of China is on the views of the Philippines and you don't hear any views from the China side. So the world automatically views China is the aggressor and the bad guy there and is understandable because no one knows the situations from the China angle. To change that China must allow foreign medias to have access of her high leadership.

I personally believe the fault lies on the Chinese leaderships. Either they don't think public relations are not important or they are unable to perform good public relations. In the first case they are wrong. In the world of intertwine global relationships PR is much more important than one perceives. You build everything including business, culture, political, military and other alliances from what others think of you. No country can survive by herself and she needs many friends and partners. A good PR can change a bad to a good and a good to a better. On the second case if the top leadership are not good in PR, they better hurry to find someone else with the abilities.

China needs someone like Mr. Zhou and Mr. Deng or even Mr. Jiang who had the flares to charm the pants off the foreigners, so to speak. On the other hand I'm optimistic though for I believe China new incoming leader, Mr. Xi might just be the guy she needs.
 
.
You can speak out (you are doing that right now), and so can I. What's the problem?

True, I can't choose who our Chief Executive is going to be, CY Leung got the job by appointment.

But so what? Who becomes the leader of any country is out of our hands anyway, just ask the millions of people who voted against Obama and Bush.

If I feel that we need universal suffrage, I will be the first one on the streets campaigning for it. Some of my friends are already doing that.

Right now, the real priorities are: Economic development, efficient governance, and rising living standards. Political liberties are secondary, and will come at a later stage of development.

We just got a Chinese version of VCheng, nothing wrong with that. :coffee:

In China, this guy will be labelled as JY or US 50 cent party.
 
.
If you do believe a society is a complex system, that it should be organically operated instead of applying a top-down method by a group of elite, then i would assume you agree with what F. A. von Hayek's points, i.e., spontaneous order.

If you believe spontaneous order, then naturally you'll be more comfortable with different interested groups get involved in policy-making process. Voting is somewhat a result of a dynamic process.

To reach a social consensus, it needs public debate, it needs independent media (or not really independent, but different interested groups get a say, some louder, some quieter, but guaranteed everyone who want to make noise can do that, in such a world connected), in the end, it needs people to vote, to make a decision. Elites may and indeed do have greater flexibility to shape the agenda, but they should never given the rights to be the only group that can think, speak and decide.

If you really think society/nation is a vivid organic thing, you should refrain from promoting the dangerous idea that an organic thing will operate like a machine. If we shouldn't given the privilege to have a voice, we can't speak out what we think and try to influence the decision making, then what's the point for we to think? Furthermore, if thinking independently is not needed, what's the point to be human being. Are the MASS simply a group of primitive animals that only need to be feeded.

The fact I choose not to let other people to vote on what treatment should be applied to me is essentially that my free will gotta to decide what's good for me. While in public policy making, it affects everybody, hence everybody should be given the right to voice out. Just that simple. We have medical professional trained to treat us. Unfortunately, politics is a more difficult discipline than medicine. None of our Politiburo members are trained to rule, and there is also no therapy can be taught to them. That's the major difference.

Instead of the unfit doctor analogy, socity/nation is more similar to a corporation, we pay tax, buy the shares, our benefit are at the stake, hence we get to vote. We hire the government to serve us, not pay money to be muted.

BTW, think tanks are useful, it is fair to say think tank shapes almost all policies in Western countries. The differnece is, you got think tank to represent riches, to oppose tax reform, to advance unilaterism, to defend free trade, you also got think tanks to promote civil rights, to emphasize criminal justice, to support big government and protectionism. They may be non-profit, but they have endowment, they have difference agenda, different power sphere in both policy making, academia, media, they have debates too. In the end, their influences are on the voters, and let they decide. That's why there are partisan tags on most of them.

While in our system, it is the government oversee limited debate, and make the decision. All think tanks are semi-offcial government branches or party branches, yes, they're also partisan, the major difference, is we only have one ruling party.

I applauds the technocrat government model which has brought China to its today's height. But it's time to think about how many people were left behind in the economic boom, how many civil rights/property rights has been blatantly trenched? It is fortunate we have an institution that currently on the right direction, and the momentum a one party system could generate is huge. Problem is, we get a great engine, where is the brake, where is the check and balance that we can rely on?

I apologize to non-Chinese members, this site isn't a very proper venue to discuss such irrelevant topics. But I'm quite annoyed by those people that are either arrogant self-claimed ruling elite or power-worship, ready to surrender their own minds and souls.

The thing is, spontaneous processes usually result in more entropy. That's true in thermodynamics, and that's true in politics. That is why Africa and Haiti are messes. That's why some parts of L.A., Rio, Sao Paolo, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, etc. are more dangerous than the Congo. Even in self assembled systems, minor perturbations can destroy the order.

A corporation is an absolute dictatorship. The CEO is the dictator. You are not a stakeholder, you are an employee, because if you were a stakeholder, that means you're paying into the company from the start. You don't. In fact, this corporation is paying you, and you're contributing 0, from age 0 to age 18.

Now, if you want to leave this corporation, and go to another corporation, that's fine. Just remember you're still in a corporation. Some corporations have employee surveys and others don't, but don't be fooled into thinking you're an investor, you're still an employee.
 
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Democratic elections are the biggest fraud in history, it's a system to keep the masses happy thinking they have a say in politics, but corporations control democracies.

That's why I'm confident India will never surpass china, it's democracy is a burden on its development, you can buy elections and corporations control the parties.
And we actually want you to think like that because that ensures that China will stay backwards and not become a developed country.
 
.
The problem now these days is that China simply does have a public relation going for her. Anything she or her academicians say are dismissed as Communist brainwash or propaganda. And they'll laugh at you when you claim the west is doing the same with their propaganda. The reason for that is they have people in the medias and across the social spectrum speak for each other in this 'good ole boy' network. This is their public relation and if you belong to them some of them will speak for you on different occasions and vice versa.

Take the Scarborough Shoal case as an example. All the paper you read outside of China is on the views of the Philippines and you don't hear any views from the China side. So the world automatically views China is the aggressor and the bad guy there and is understandable because no one knows the situations from the China angle. To change that China must allow foreign medias to have access of her high leadership.

I personally believe the fault lies on the Chinese leaderships. Either they don't think public relations are not important or they are unable to perform good public relations. In the first case they are wrong. In the world of intertwine global relationships PR is much more important than one perceives. You build everything including business, culture, political, military and other alliances from what others think of you. No country can survive by herself and she needs many friends and partners. A good PR can change a bad to a good and a good to a better. On the second case if the top leadership are not good in PR, they better hurry to find someone else with the abilities.

China needs someone like Mr. Zhou and Mr. Deng or even Mr. Jiang who had the flares to charm the pants off the foreigners, so to speak. On the other hand I'm optimistic though for I believe China new incoming leader, Mr. Xi might just be the guy she needs.


Majority of information flow in the world is control by just a few Western media corporation. Western media is about viewership and profits. Not about telling the truth. During the 2008 Tibetan riots, truth and responsible reporting was thrown out of the window as every single western media joinned the band wagon to demonise China. :devil:
Another example was during the runup to Iraq war. The Libya regime change. :devil:
For 20years, western media lied about TAM. And dispite wikileak article that no one died at TAM only the Daily Telegraph printed the wilileak article. :disagree:

The only way to seek the truth is to do a simple research on the internet. Truth cannot be found in the mainstream western media.
 
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Majority of information flow in the world is control by just a few Western media corporation. Western media is about viewership and profits. Not about telling the truth. During the 2008 Tibetan riots, truth and responsible reporting was thrown out of the window as every single western media joinned the band wagon to demonise China. :devil:
Another example was during the runup to Iraq war. The Libya regime change. :devil:
For 20years, western media lied about TAM. And dispite wikileak article that no one died at TAM only the Daily Telegraph printed the wilileak article. :disagree:

The only way to seek the truth is to do a simple research on the internet. Truth cannot be found in the mainstream western media.


That's what I meant that China must develop her own public relation system to promote her vital interests as a big powerful country. This PR system is to counter balance their 'good ole boy' network in the west where they speak on each others behalves. Without that China will the victim of their smear campaigns as you mentioned without any ability to defend herself.

There many ways this PR system can be developed and I'm sure China realizes that. It's just that she need the right people to implement them.
 
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That's what I meant that China must develop her own public relation system to promote her vital interests as a big powerful country. This PR system is to counter balance their 'good ole boy' network in the west where they speak on each others behalves. Without that China will the victim of their smear campaigns as you mentioned without any ability to defend herself.
This doesn't work as long as China threatens its neighbors in Southeast Asia, practices neo-colonialism in Africa, export junk product around the world, and Chinese corporation and tourists behave badly overseas. No amount of PR will cover such negative image of China that people see and hear about.
 
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This doesn't work as long as China threatens its neighbors in Southeast Asia, practices neo-colonialism in Africa, export junk product around the world, and Chinese corporation and tourists behave badly overseas. No amount of PR will cover such negative image of China that people see and hear about.


If it works for the US it will work for China. US has done much more harmful things to half of the world in recent decades than any country. And besides your opinions don't count because your eyes are clouded with the hatred of China.
 
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If it works for the US it will work for China. US has done much more harmful things to half of the world in recent decades than any country. And besides your opinions don't count because your eyes are clouded with the hatred of China.
And your man disagree...Severely...

Amazon.com: Can Asians Think? Understanding the Divide Between East and West (9781586420338): Kishore Mahbubani: Books
SEVEN PARADOXES ON ASIA-PACIFIC SECURITY

Paradox 4: U.S. benevolence, and its informal style of communication, may bring China and Japan closer to each other than ever before in their long history.

The United States is also a unique great power, probably the most benevolent great power ever seen in the history of man.
 
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If it works for the US it will work for China.
When the US does things, it does it because it's the right thing to do. The US seeks no gain from its actions in terms of territory or natural resources. To the contrary, the US spends tons of its own money to help out 3rd world countries.

When China does things, it does it for its own gains in terms of territory and natural resources.

You cannot compare the US and China. People do know who is good-intentioned and who is ill-intentioned.
 
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