China's New Stealth Bomber: H-X / H-20

[Akasa]

First of all, you do know F-117 and B-2 have different role in war, right?

Again, I do understand the need for China to develope a F-117ish tactical stealth bomber, be that the coming FC-31 or a new concept. That's fine. The problem is that B-2 does not do what F-117 do in Desert Storm, the original envision by the USAF for B-2 is to drop nuclear weapon in stealth over Russia, to complete the 3 cycles (air, sub-subsurface, ICBM) of delievery (I forgot the name of the cycle) What B-2 do now is more or less what B-52 do during Vietnam War. Plus the ability to drop Bunker Buster Bomb.

For China, the need of B-2 type to run as a bomb truck is quite low, because, as I said, you don't need that kind of concentration of firepower in one area you need, that's the reason why there are only a few sorties of either B-52 or B-2 was ever called in Iraqi and Enduring Freedom.

For High Priority Target, (or Tier 1 target) in war, those were taken out by the Tactical bomber or tactical sorties. Which at this moment, as I type, were to be taken care by A-10, F-15E and basically any aircraft that can come in and drop a JDAM.

For China, the need of strategic bombing is not needed because all of their potential target is nearby. The need of tier 1 targetting can be done by future stealth fighter, the need of a Strategic Bomber can only be used in a low intensity conflict, which usually China outnumber their enemy.

So the only way that make sense for this Bomber is to try and bomb the United States mainland (as the only country that miltarily stronger than China) But doing that will undoubtly trigger WW3. So...That would not be anything but a white elephent for China.

For US, they need strategic bomber, one reason is, they can support them in forward deployment, they have an extensive refueling system, forward deploy base. And most importantly, they have global engagement that needed thsoe bomber because they may not have a forward support base on the next war they are fighting, the last attempt of the strategic bomber used in a strategic role is Operation Black Bucks (1-7), which the RAF uses the vulcan bomber from Acension island to bomb target in Falklands. And even that sorties are stretching the length and sserve nothing but a demostration to the RAF. For China, continue down this road would mean nothing more than a hanger queen and waste of money.

Of course the F-117s and B-2s have different roles, but the F-117's low observability & range can be used as a comparator in terms of operational use. Its distinct advantages over other attack aircraft meant that it could forfeit any required escort/support when attacking heavily-defended targets, itself being a force multiplier that frees up other aerial platforms for other missions. Such bombers is not about concentrating firepower but rather being able to place that firepower at a target that would otherwise be unreachable by other aircraft.

Once again, having a long-range aircraft to deal with short-range targets means that you would have more loitering time & flexibility, which are advantages that any military could use.

 

[jhungary]

Of course the F-117s and B-2s have different roles, but the F-117's low observability & range can be used as a comparator in terms of operational use. Its distinct advantages over other attack aircraft meant that it could forfeit any required escort/support when attacking heavily-defended targets, itself being a force multiplier that frees up other aerial platforms for other missions. Such bombers is not about concentrating firepower but rather being able to place that firepower at a target that would otherwise be unreachable by other aircraft.

Once again, having a long-range aircraft to deal with short-range targets means that you would have more loitering time & flexibility, which are advantages that any military could use.

.........You are actually purporting my point.

What I was saying is, China need a Tactical Strike Capable fighter like the F-117. China does not need a Strategic Bomber like B-2......

B-2 does not do what the F-117 do, Think of it is you need to bomb a target, a single target, but you want to drop either 80 Mk-82 Freefall Bombs or 40 JDAM on a single target. That target need to be big enough or far enough for you to justify calling such a strike. Most Target China is facing, if China is ever at war would be small, because both Japan and Taiwan is a build up country, they won't have vietnam war type big strategic target such as a large area swamping with enemy surrounding your firebase (ala Khe Sanh) which would warrant a B-52 Arclight strike. Their Command and Control structure, marshalling area would be hidden. That is what Bomber like B-2 do.

China need a F-117 that can penetrate enemy airspace and survive an airstrike and return to base, but China don't need a B-2 type unless you want to target your enemy cities.

And I think we need to stop now.....

You don't need JTAC or TTL assets to hit factories, air bases etc. You punch in the coordinates into your missiles and send them out.

Cruse missiles, ballistic missiles also don't need forward controllers, you need recce aircraft and satellites.

I am referring to the military industrial hinterland in India, where most of our military stuff is made. That's cities like Pune, Bangalore, Chennai etc.



Then you won't hit our military industrial complex.

If you want to get to the mainland, you will have to stay out of reach of the navy's and the air force's tactical fighters and sea based ADS.

For China to develop a bomber alone means India will need a more sophisticated ADS for Peninsular India. So now we have to throw money on more land based and sea based defences.

You are also forgetting that China and Russia aren't friends. So it isn't just Japan and Taiwan, there's also US, Russia and India that they have to deal with.



Your missile needs to come within range first. That's what the bomber is for.
Hainan to Bangalore is 3500Km. Cruise missiles will have to fly over ASEAN, and their own defences will activate against such an attack, particularly Vietnam's. But if the Chinese develop a bomber that can bypass ASEAN air defences and attack Bangalore from Myanmar, which is just 1500Km away, the attack will be far more effective. And the bomber will be carrying enough missiles to put a dent.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...orld-he-can-strike-from-1-700-miles-away.html



A simple tactical bomber won't get close. And even if it did, its payload is too small.



Peninsular India has very poor ADS. And even if it ever did get ADS, it will not be as sophisticated or numerous as North India.



You can't. We are not talking about your airspace, we are talking about operating in neutral airspace. Any other tactical fighter will be discovered, considering it can even fly to that range.

Always remember that bigger the size of the aircraft, the more stealthy it can be against radar.



The B-2 won't. But the Russians and Chinese don't think that way. They want to use long range missiles on their stealth aircraft, so does India.

Kh-55. Internal configuration. 3000Km.

Kh-101. 3000Km.

You can pack more lower ranged missiles. Please consider Russian/Chinese doctrine, not just American.

Tactical fighters can't carry long range weapons internally. And a few cheaper tactical fighters won't get close because they are going to be less sophisticated.



NFU is a paper policy, it's not binding. When countries go nuclear, you think treaties matter?

A stealth bomber is made for a full scale thermonuclear war. It's not made for a short conventional war. That's why it's called a strategic bomber. The B-2 in particular was built for carrying nuclear weapons for use against the Soviet Union.

Although we have been discussing the conventional use of the bomber, the actual role of this new bomber is obviously strategic. There's no point arguing along the lines of "but they have ICBMs" because the Russians and Americans have far more ICBMs and still use stealth bombers.

Oh well, heeding the warning from the moderator, am not going to discuss further on this issue, if you want, you can open a new thread about whether or not China need these bomber and tag me. I don't want to waste half an hour on something only to be deleted.

 

[Brainsucker]

@jhungary : Then why B-2 is even exist in the first place, if her purpose is only targeting the enemy city? Does America supporting mass civilian killing? The American has their own ballistic missiles too, that can bring a nuclear strike from the silos in their own country.

I think (CMIIW) The sole purpose of B-2 is for deterrent (for now), although it can be use as it's intended purpose, if the US president / generals are mad enough to conduct massacre to the civilians. But, even if it's not being used, it's existence alone can make the enemy think twice before they have such an adventuring mind. No country wants their cities to be flattened by the B-2. So China might has the same idea as the US. IF they ever develop a B-2 type bomber, it will be used as deterrent.

 

[messiach]

I am aware of a turbine-fan development which was dedicated for H6 bomber and possibly for advanced 'stealth bombers'!! but I have not followed it since long. Is there any following here? @Deino

 

[phancong]

China develop stealth bomber to insure their 2nd nuclear strike deterrent consist of air, space, sea for counter attack against the US nuclear strike on mainland China. Stealth bomber allow China another option to nuke their enemy if China get nuke.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary : Then why B-2 is even exist in the first place, if her purpose is only targeting the enemy city? Does America supporting mass civilian killing? The American has their own ballistic missiles too, that can bring a nuclear strike from the silos in their own country.

I think (CMIIW) The sole purpose of B-2 is for deterrent (for now), although it can be use as it's intended purpose, if the US president / generals are mad enough to conduct massacre to the civilians. But, even if it's not being used, it's existence alone can make the enemy think twice before they have such an adventuring mind. No country wants their cities to be flattened by the B-2. So China might has the same idea as the US. IF they ever develop a B-2 type bomber, it will be used as deterrent.

B-2 is a tactical nuclear delievery platform, the sole reason for the 23 B-2 (21 productions + 2 Prototype) is to take out Soviet Russie C&C and Communication Hub with a B61 or B83 Nuke bomb before Russia can lob their NUke on the US, the primary target, if destroyed, would seriously hamper the Russia Ability to send nuke over US soil, and thus, it allow the convention force to initiate a "Full Count" on Russia Arsenal.

Mind you, B-2 was made with NO CONVENTIONAL CAPABILITY, a factory rolled out B-2 in 1993 cannot drop Mk-82 or Mk-84 bomb, and they can only drop Nuclear Bomb or Nuclear Stand off Missile.

As for why US needed the B-2, I have already said it on my convo with @SinoSoldier I am not going to say it again here. And no, B-2 is not for nuclear deterrent and US does not operate like Russia did, tactical nuke on C&C are not going to be effective on US military, because US have a 4-tiers redundant C&C Structure. And hence China should not be copying the tactical nuclear role that US have in mind with the B-2, unless China is targetting the Russian.

Also, you need to put into the consideration when China have successfully developed B-2 type bomber, Stealth is not going to be any sort of a big deal, where by then, most of the country should have effective anti-stealth technology, thus, rendering the Chinese B-2 useless in their original role.

 

[IblinI]

What makes You so sure of it ??

If You compare the H-20's development with the Y-20 - which surely is less complex - then there are reports about:

- 2010 early: full-scale mock-up completed
- 2012 early: rumours that the #01 prototype under construction
- 2013: three prototypes (#01 - #03) finished with the #02 being the static test airframe.
- 2012 late: first low speed taxiing
- 2013 early: first flight

This would correspond to close 3 years from design finalisation to first sight aka taxi test. Even if we don't know how far the H-20's design is completed, but if they are indeed as noted by others like @cirr, they are probably at the stage of detailed design and 3D digital mock-up "construction"; not sure if it can be translated into "full-scale mock-up completed" !??

Anyway it does not sound as if the design has been completed and construction of a prototype begins soon, but even if it would still mean about three years from now on or about 2020.

So to assume to see that bird within two years is IMO a bit far fetched or over-optimistic.
But I would be glad if I'm wrong.

Deino

The last time when a top commander from the air force making a comment about the on-going project was 2009 about J20, which we saw it at the end of 2010, and this time it was the Air force commander saying that "you will be seeing it soon".So i recon two years is more reasonable.

 

[gambit]

Maybe @gambit can shred more light on how B-2 bring Tactical Edge on battlefield? Beucase as far as I saw it on the ground, it didn't.

Sure it can...

Each JDAM was released from 40,000 ft altitude and in a single pass.

This does not mean that targets like the Obvra airfield can be hit only by a 'stealth' platform. The B-52 or the Bone could have done it. The Bone can carry 24 2,000 lbs JDAMs in an all JDAMs mission.

Anyway...An airfield that launches fighter-bombers can turn the fight on the front lines, so the question is on how do we interpret, or expand, the definition of what constitute 'tactical'. Before airpower, what is 'tactical', as defined by the army, is any fighting that is currently on going and anticipated within the next 48 hrs and distance of about 20 miles max over the horizon. With airpower, that anticipation was expanded to about 96 hrs and distance of about 100 miles. For the army, that is 100 accessible miles, meaning using ground vehicles. For an air field, that is 100 miles of protection from enemy troops.

A fighter-bomber squadron is a tactical fleet, even with the technology of air refueling. The assumption for most air forces is that air refueling is a luxury that they do not have, therefore, any war planning by that air force must take into consideration payload type vs fuel vs range vs loiter time to maximize benefits for one's own army.

Assume the fighting is 100 miles away from the air field. The army can impede the progress of enemy army, but it is up to that air field to defend itself against the enemy air force and that 100 miles is less than 10 minutes of flight time.

A long range 'stealth' bomber platform by one side introduces uncertainty into the war planning process on the other side, even down to the tactical level. The fighter-bombers cannot be a tactical threat to the air field that houses those long range 'stealth' bombers, whereas those 'stealth' bombers can be a tactical threat to enemy army and enemy air field. The enemy army counts on its air field to deliver those fighter-bombers to the front lines. Denial of that forces the enemy army to reduce its tactical planning to 48 hrs and 20 miles, while allowing your army to maintain its tactical planning to 96 hrs and 100 miles.

Advantage -- yours.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

China To Announce New Strategic Stealth Bomber Around 2020: Report
Our Bureau
08:39 AM, February 20, 2017
665 views

Future Chinese H-20 stealth bomber
- A +


China is likely to announce its home-grown nuclear capable Long Range Strike Bomber (LRSB) around 2020.

According to a report by Chinamil citing an article by a Japanese scholar in July 2015,titled, “"China to develop new type of long-range strategic bomber", which referred to the H-20, a name that's commonly used now. Someone compared it with America's B-2 strategic bomber and called it the "red B-2".

As per the report, the continuous occurring of China’s 20 series suggests that the new LRSB will be developed by 2020.

"20" is a code used for China's new-generation aviation equipment and also implies these equipment's combat capability will be formed around 2020.

Now that China is to develop a new-generation LRSB. Given the connotations of "20", it makes sense to name the new long-range bomber "H-20", but the official name is yet to be announced by Chinese military authorities.

China has overcome many technical difficulties in strategic bomber so far, including engine, air inlet, material and stealth technology. It is progressing fast on the development of precise guided munition, and has amassed experience in manufacturing the Y-20 military aircraft.

"We are developing the new-generation long range strike bomber (LRSB). You will see it in the future," said the PLA Air Force commander Ma Xiaotian at a PLA Air Force open day event when answering reporters’ questions on September 1, 2016.

The next-generation LRSB has an intercontinental flying range of more than 10,000km and combat radius of over 5,000km. With air refueling, it is able to fly and carry out missions around the globe
Aimed to lower the R&D cost and enhance strike capability, the new bomber will have a slightly smaller bomb load than B-2A (23 tons) but larger than H-6K.

The LRSB will have both nuclear and regular strike capability to hit the enemy's key links and systemic weaknesses. The bomber is also capable of large-capacity date fusion and transmission. It can serve as a C4ISR node and interact with large sensor platforms like UAV, early warning aircraft and strategic reconnaissance aircraft to share information and target data, reported ChinaMil.

At the moment, the US and Russia both have their own long-range bombers, the former having B-52H, B-1B and B-2A and the latter having Tu-160 and Tu-95MS, and they have both plans for developing next-generation strategic bombers.

Source:
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...ealth_Bomber_Around_2020__Report#.WK75M59RXqA

 

[Deino]

Please !!! We already have a dedicated thread for so many You just started during the last few hours. Please do a search before You start a new one if already an thread exists.
Thanks.

Deino

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Please !!! We already have a dedicated thread for so many You just stared during the last few hours. Please do a search before You start a new one if already an thread exists.
Thanks.

Deino

K

 

[Stuttgart001]

The Xian H-20 is a subsonic stealth bomber design of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, due to enter service in the future. It is a “strategic project” for china. The aircraft will feature a wing design similar to that of the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit, with components already being manufactured. Analysts note that the bomber may enter service by 2025, and will seek to replace China’s existing fleet of Xian H-6K bombers.

Admiral Yin said the H-20 stealth bomber will certainly be on par with the United States’ Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit. He noted China has gained some experience in stealth technology from the development of Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31 stealth fighters, so the material and design isn’t a big problem.

The US B-2 entered service in 1997 as the second aircraft designed to have advanced stealth technology after the Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk attack aircraft
The US Northrop B-2 is capable of all-altitude attack missions up to 50,000 feet (15,000 m), with a range of more than 6,000 nautical miles (6,900 mi; 11,000 km) on internal fuel and over 10,000 nautical miles (12,000 mi; 19,000 km) with one midair refueling.

According to the China Daily, Chinese military officials have made clear intentions to develop a strategic bomber capable of striking targets beyond the second island chain without aerial refueling, while carrying a payload of at least 10 tons

China’s first stealth bomber will be developed and produced by Xi’an Aircraft Industrial Corporation, the same firm that makes the H-6K.

The H-6K has a range of about 3200 nautical miles.

China’s decision to go ahead with its own stealth bomber seems to have been triggered by its failure to buy Russia’s supersonic Tupolev Tu-22M3 variable-sweep wing, long-range strategic and maritime strike bomber developed by the Tupolev Design Bureau.

This Russian bomber has a combat radius of 2,400 kilometers and can carry up to 24,000 kilograms of bombs and missiles.

Western military analysts said China needs the H-20 to deny the U.S. from entering the “First Island Chain” from Alaska to the Philippines, and to cement its military leadership in Asia

 

[Stuttgart001]

China’s military leaders talk up plans for the H-20 strategic bomber
An article published by the China Military Online website on 7 December has provided further insights into the requirements for China’s new strategic bomber.

China is developing a new long-range strategic bomber referred to in the article as the H-20.

While General Ma gave no details of the programme, Rear Admiral Yin, who is also a regular media commentator on Chinese military developments, commented that as the “cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, and other weapons and equipment that will be carried by domestic strategic bombers are all in place”, the time was right for China to develop a new strategic bomber.

He stated that China’s current long-range bomber, the Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) H-6 series (a modernised Tupolov Tu-16 Badger derivative) is not truly a strategic bomber and suggested that the new aircraft will have characteristics comparable with those of the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit stealth bomber.

The experience and knowledge in the design of stealth aircraft gained from the development of the stealthy J-20 and F-31 combat aircraft, together with the associated understanding and application of advanced materials technology, also present an opportune moment to progress the requirement for a new strategic bomber.

Speaking of whether China can develop supersonic stealth strategic bombers, military expert Li Li said that this is technically Precisely because of the emphasis is laid on the stealth performance, the aircraft’s aerodynamic configuration will be quite different from that of a supersonic bomber. May be a more realistic solution to select from the stealth capability and supersonic penetration.

 

[nang2]

China’s military leaders talk up plans for the H-20 strategic bomber
An article published by the China Military Online website on 7 December has provided further insights into the requirements for China’s new strategic bomber.

China is developing a new long-range strategic bomber referred to in the article as the H-20.

While General Ma gave no details of the programme, Rear Admiral Yin, who is also a regular media commentator on Chinese military developments, commented that as the “cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, and other weapons and equipment that will be carried by domestic strategic bombers are all in place”, the time was right for China to develop a new strategic bomber.

He stated that China’s current long-range bomber, the Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) H-6 series (a modernised Tupolov Tu-16 Badger derivative) is not truly a strategic bomber and suggested that the new aircraft will have characteristics comparable with those of the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit stealth bomber.

The experience and knowledge in the design of stealth aircraft gained from the development of the stealthy J-20 and F-31 combat aircraft, together with the associated understanding and application of advanced materials technology, also present an opportune moment to progress the requirement for a new strategic bomber.

Speaking of whether China can develop supersonic stealth strategic bombers, military expert Li Li said that this is technically Precisely because of the emphasis is laid on the stealth performance, the aircraft’s aerodynamic configuration will be quite different from that of a supersonic bomber. May be a more realistic solution to select from the stealth capability and supersonic penetration.

what is its name? flying stingray?

 

[Stuttgart001]

what is its name? flying stingray?

It will not be named until the first prototype rolls out ,i guess.