China's Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) capability

[Dr. Strangelove]

one word bullshit

 

[Martian2]

If there's a flaw, point it out. If there isn't a flaw, please shut up.

Stupid people don't have reasons. "Bullshit" is not an argument. It's an expression of someone who is too stupid to understand the reasoning presented. It's like trying to teach calculus to a monkey.

They keep mouthing off without providing a good explanation.

That means you and the other clown.

If there is a flaw in the reasoning then identify it. If you can't identify a flaw, please keep your mouth shut.

The logic of attacking hundreds of Russian cities and towns to trigger the Russian thermonuclear arsenal is inescapable. I have left the Russians with no choice.

This is the only way to transform China's 288 SLBM-based thermonuclear warheads into thousands of Russian long-range thermonuclear warheads. There is no other way.

----------

China and Russia receive 285 megatons of damage each. US receives 1,400 megatons of damage.

1. Chinese and Russian warheads are more powerful than the small American Trident II warheads.

A Chinese DF-5A ICBM has a five megaton warhead. A Chinese DF-5B ICBM carries ten half-megaton warheads.

The Trident II carries MIRVed warheads: either a 100-kiloton Mark 4/W76 warhead or a 475-kiloton Mark 5/W88 warhead.

It takes ten W88s to equal one DF-5A warhead. Alternatively, it requires 50 W76 warheads to match a DF-5A.

2. China will call up Russia and give them five minutes to launch all of their ICBMs and SLBMs at the United States or else. Either launch or wait for China to wipe out hundreds of Russian cities and towns.

Put yourself in Russia's position. The U.S. has already devastated China. What happens when Russia nukes the Chinese cities that have already been nuked by the United States? Nothing.

Any Russian attempt to nuke China is a waste of time and thermonuclear warheads. In any case, China will go ahead and nuke Russia into oblivion. This leaves America.

If Russia wants to win the post-nuclear winter war, it must nuke the United States. There is no other choice.

3. Russia has 1,270 megatons. China has 294 megatons. We'll knock off 1/2 for China and estimate only 150 megatons are long-range.

Combined, Russia and China will hit the United States with about 1,400 megatons.

The U.S. has to split its 570 megatons between Russia and China. This means only 285 megatons for each country.

After an all-out thermonuclear war, Russia and China should come out ahead.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China and Russia receive 285 megatons of damage each. US receives 1,400 megatons of damage.

1. Chinese and Russian warheads are more powerful than the small American Trident II warheads.

A Chinese DF-5A ICBM has a five megaton warhead. A Chinese DF-5B ICBM carries ten half-megaton warheads.

The Trident II carries MIRVed warheads: either a 100-kiloton Mark 4/W76 warhead or a 475-kiloton Mark 5/W88 warhead.

It takes ten W88s to equal one DF-5A warhead. Alternatively, it requires 50 W76 warheads to match a DF-5A.

2. China will call up Russia and give them five minutes to launch all of their ICBMs and SLBMs at the United States or else. Either launch or wait for China to wipe out hundreds of Russian cities and towns.

Put yourself in Russia's position. The U.S. has already devastated China. What happens when Russia nukes the Chinese cities that have already been nuked by the United States? Nothing.

Any Russian attempt to nuke China is a waste of time and thermonuclear warheads. In any case, China will go ahead and nuke Russia into oblivion. This leaves America.

If Russia wants to win the post-nuclear winter war, it must nuke the United States. There is no other choice.

3. Russia has 1,270 megatons. China has 294 megatons. We'll knock off 1/2 for China and estimate only 150 megatons are long-range.

Combined, Russia and China will hit the United States with about 1,400 megatons.

The U.S. has to split its 570 megatons between Russia and China. This means only 285 megatons for each country.

After an all-out thermonuclear war, Russia and China should come out ahead.

There was an interesting scenario in the mid 90s, remember the Taiwan Crisis.

Lee Teng-Hui was the troublemaker who pushed a referendum for independence at the time. China decided to directly intervene through a military action against the separatism in Taiwan. While US had sent two supercarrier battlegroups to prepare to handle against any contingent situation.

Frankly, China had never tried to borrow Russia's MAD to deter against USA. The liquid fuel was injected into DF-5A (to target the east coast of USA), not DF-4A (to target Russia or Europe). And the newly deployed DF-31 (to target the west coast of USA) was in standby.

If the situation went out of control, China was ready to launch approximately 60-100 megaton nukes on the US soil.

Back then, China was poor and had nothing to lose, while USA was already a sole hyperpower after winning the Cold War. USA would inevitably win the nuclear war, but at what cost? Was it worthy to have its hyperpower status being perished together with the poor China?

If this was happening, then China would be totally annihilated, while the major of USA would be devastated and turn into many 3rd world nations. Russia was a mess back then, while Japan was in much better shape and would undoubtedly become the biggest winner in this nuclear confrontation between China and USA.

Maybe we would see the reborn of the Japanese Militarism as early as the 1990s, perhaps they would seek the revenge against the already devastated USA?

 

[Martian2]

To me, this forum is a disappointment.

Last week, on NextBigFuture (which is the second-largest technology news website on the Internet), I was debating the idea of nuking Russian cities to deter the United States. People called me evil, but they did not disagree with the logic of nuking Russian cities.

Here, all I have heard is name calling from HypersonicMissiles and Wasm95. Some of you guys really aren't too bright.

The only smart guy in this thread is ChineseTiger1986. If he wasn't around, I wouldn't even bother posting further in this thread.

----------

This is a defense website. I have presented a novel military strategy. Where's the error? If there isn't one then this is the new proper military strategy to deter the United States.

 

[bolo]

To me, this forum is a disappointment.

Last week, on NextBigFuture (which is the second-largest technology news website on the Internet), I was debating the idea of nuking Russian cities to deter the United States. People called me evil, but they did not disagree with the logic of nuking Russian cities.

Here, all I have heard is name calling from HypersonicMissiles and Wasm95. Some of you guys really aren't too bright.

The only smart guy in this thread is ChineseTiger1986. If he wasn't around, I wouldn't even bother posting further in this thread.

Because your MAD logic is very Cao Cao like thinking if he was in this situation. I like it, but another option is for China to increase its nuclear arsenal but keep the option 1 open and for China to public state that they will use nukes if US interferes in SCS or taiwan issues.

 

[Martian2]

What does it mean it's very Cao Cao? I asked you to show me an error in logic.

I have taken a vastly inferior military force (e.g. only three Type 094 SSBNs) and used it to force the Russians to launch their entire thermonuclear arsenal at the target that I picked.

It's nasty, but effective.

With three Type 094 SSBNs, I intend to neutralize the entire American thermonuclear arsenal. This is my military strategy in taking an underdog and leveraging its military power to its utmost.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

What does it mean it's very Cao Cao? I asked you to show me an error in logic.

What do you think about this scenario?

It is interesting subject that is worthy to discuss. I hope that you won't leave this forum again.

 

[Martian2]

If I don't detect signs of intelligent life in this forum then it's not worth my time.

If you weren't around, I'll be out the door right now.

----------

People are upset, because it looks like I'm cheating. So? War is dirty.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The Taiwan Crisis event during 1995-1996, even with a much weaker China, it was USA caved in at the end and promised never to openly support the separatism in Taiwan again.

There are a lot of interesting details that we can discuss here, and i hope you stay here Martin.

 

[bolo]

What does it mean it's very Cao Cao? I asked you to show me an error in logic.

I have taken a vastly inferior military force (e.g. only three Type 094 SSBNs) and used it to force the Russians to launch their entire thermonuclear arsenal at the target that I picked.

It's nasty, but effective.

With three Type 094 SSBNs, I intend to neutralize the entire American thermonuclear arsenal. This is my military strategy in taking an underdog and leveraging its military power to its utmost.

Like I said it's good option. You know what ruler Cao was like in Chinese history.

 

[gambit]

The impetus behind China's thermonuclear attack on Russian cities is to force the launch of Russian ICBMs and SLBMs in a retaliatory strike on China's behalf against the United States. This means Russia can avoid an attack on its cities if it agrees beforehand with China to launch the Russian thermonuclear arsenal against the United States if the U.S. attacks China.

This is just hilariously stupid. What is there to prevent a US-Russia super duper secret agreement that if the US attack China, Russia will join in on the US side? Geography actually favors this scenario. China is closer to Russia than the US is to Russia. Plus, ONCE, not if, the US demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubts that we have a credible ballistic missile defense, it would make eminent sense for a US-Russia alliance.

To me, this forum is a disappointment.

It is a disappointment because you are challenged here. This forum is not a circle jerk like your playground.

This is a defense website. I have presented a novel military strategy. Where's the error? If there isn't one then this is the new proper military strategy to deter the United States.

More like a silly one.

 

[Commander T]

China's MAD capability, Diayou Islands, and South China Sea

Nuclear Coercion

The ultimate military power is nuclear coercion. We first saw nuclear coercion in the Korean War (1950-1953). At that time, China had not yet detonated its first atomic/fission bomb (1964) or hydrogen/thermonuclear/fusion bomb (1967).

The United States threatened to use nuclear weapons against China if the PLA Army pushed the US Army into the sea. Thus, the threat of nuclear coercion prevented a complete military victory for China on the Korean peninsula.

Today, the United States is using nuclear coercion again against China. Basically, the U.S. has more thermonuclear ICBM and SLBM thermonuclear warheads. This means in an all-out exchange, the U.S. will suffer less damage than China. Using this line of thinking, China must be circumspect in dealing with its Asian neighbors due to U.S. support for them.

To solve the problem of U.S. nuclear coercion, we will take the concept of Chinese nuclear coercion and apply it to Russia. China has plenty of MRBM/IRBM, SLBM, GLCM, and ALCM thermonuclear warheads. The goal is to transform a plentiful supply of medium-range thermonuclear warheads into thousands of long-range ICBM or SLBM thermonuclear warheads.

In the event of an U.S. nuclear attack on China, China has nothing to lose. Thus, China will unleash hundreds of intermediate-range thermonuclear warheads on Russian cities. China has created a situation where Russia has nothing to lose as well.

At this point, China and Russia have both lost. The United States is in pretty good shape with some Chinese ICBM retaliation. However, the Russians have to consider the war after the nuclear winter. If the Russians don't nuke the U.S. then the U.S. will rule the world forever.

Due to Chinese nuclear coercion, Russia has only one rational choice. Russia must nuke the U.S. to give the Russian post-nuclear war survivors an equal chance to win.

China invokes Russian nuclear umbrella

The impetus behind China's thermonuclear attack on Russian cities is to force the launch of Russian ICBMs and SLBMs in a retaliatory strike on China's behalf against the United States. This means Russia can avoid an attack on its cities if it agrees beforehand with China to launch the Russian thermonuclear arsenal against the United States if the U.S. attacks China.

By using nuclear coercion, China can force the Russians to shelter China under the Russian nuclear umbrella. Militarily speaking, the United States must consider China and Russia as joined at the hip. Any nuclear attack on China should be considered as an attack on Russia.

Overthrowing conventional military strategy

Currently, it is widely believed that China does not possess sufficient long-range thermonuclear weapons to deter the United States. Using the new strategy of attacking Russian cities, China has acquired access to the Russian thermonuclear arsenal to deter the United States. Effectively, China has acquired Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) capability against the United States.

The other pillar of conventional military wisdom is that China will sail its Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs eastward into the Pacific to bring parts of the United States within firing range. The Jin-class SSBNs are not as quiet as American subs and China lacks experience in long-range patrols. This is dangerous for China, because 50 American nuclear attack subs are waiting to intercept the Chinese Jin-class SSBNs.

We can avert the problem of losing the Jin-class SSBNs by launching their SLBMs with 288 MIRVed warheads toward Russian cities and effectively transforming them into thousands of Russian thermonuclear warheads headed for the United States.

MAD gives China a free hand in Asia

Previously, without MAD capability, China could not use its full military arsenal to win in the Diaoyu Islands and South China Sea disputes.

If the United States intervenes militarily over the Diayou Islands, China has two good replies. The first option is to abandon the conventional air and naval battle over the Diayou Islands. The PLA re-annexes Mongolia (which was part of China prior to 1945) and spends ten years to build a second Underground Great Wall about 2,000 miles long to protect about 5,000 thermonuclear warheads on 500 DF-41 ICBMs (which have 10 MIRVs per ICBM).

The second option is to nullify the entire U.S. Navy and Air Force in Asia with Chinese megaton-class EMP (electromagnetic pulse) weapons. By sending a surge of 50,000 volts per meter through all electronics and electrical wiring, all American naval ships and aircraft within a 3,000-mile diameter would be rendered useless.

Both options of annexing Mongolia and using megaton-class EMPs are risky without the ability to deter the United States from the ultimate threat of all-out thermonuclear war. By attacking hundreds of Russian cities, China has acquired MAD capability to deter the United States.

Using the new Chinese MAD capability, China should feel free to re-annex Mongolia or use megaton-class EMPs whenever it feels like it.

----------

China's Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) against the United States

The pictures below show three Chinese Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

Each Jin-class SSBN carries 12 JL-2 SLBMs.

According to Jane's Defence, one JL-2 SLBM can carry 8 MIRVed thermonuclear warheads. (Source: Jane’s Strategic Weapon Systems (Offensive Weapons). September 30, 2012.)

3 Chinese Jin-class SSBNs x 12 JL-2 SLBMs per SSBN x 8 MIRVs per SLBM = 288 thermonuclear warheads

This is counter-intuitive, but China can deter the United States by aiming 288 thermonuclear warheads at Russian cities. In an all-out thermonuclear war with the United States, China already knows that American nukes are headed for China. This means China is finished.

In retaliation, China wipes out 288 Russian cities and towns. Basically, Russia is finished.

China will leave all Russian nuclear forces untouched. The Russians have a choice to launch all of their ICBMs against the United States. This is important for the war after the nuclear winter. If Russia does not launch all of its ICBMs against the U.S. then the handful of Russians who survive in underground cities will have to face 310 million Americans in an undamaged America.

The only logical choice is for Russia to launch all of its MIRVed thermonuclear warheads against the U.S. to level the playing field after the nuclear winter. Any launch of Russian nuclear missiles against China is redundant and pointless.

Since China has mutually assured destruction capability against the United States (by leveraging the Russian thermonuclear arsenal), this means the U.S. cannot pressure China in Asia or the South China Sea.

From the Bohai Sea or South China Sea, China's three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs can maintain China's MAD capability against the United States.

Three Chinese Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs seen at dock.

By counting the launch tubes, it is obvious the Type 094 Jin-class SSBN carries 12 SLBMs.

[Note: Thank you to ChineseTiger1986 for the pictures.]

not a bad theory, i´but now it has been changed.....china,now, has long range missile (ICBMs) and as many submirines by 2020 as chaina wants.........so there is no logic left in nuking russia to that russia will bomb usa, but still i think China will use its nuke in case if russia and china are not allied in war....to assure MUTUAL DESTRUCTION.....so there is no power left to rule the world...

 

[anonymus]

If there's a flaw, point it out. If there isn't a flaw, please shut up.

Retard,

If China launches Nukes towards Russia while simultaneously waging Nuclear war with USA, Russia instead of Nuking US would Nuke each and every small town in China after US has destroyed all your cities. Receiving nuclear backlash from USA and Russia combined would mean that whole of the Han Race would be extinguished with each and every member of that race dead, not just cessation of China as a nation state as would be the case with waging Nuclear war with one of them.There is no reason for Russia to nuke US in this scenario as it would require US for recovery.

 

[Hypersonicmissiles]

So let me get this straight. If America nukes China, China should nuke Russia and hope Russia nukes America.
Russia has enough nukes to wipe the entire Eurasian continent off the map 10 times over.

 

[gambit]

Retard,

If China launches Nukes towards Russia while simultaneously waging Nuclear war with USA, Russia instead of Nuking US would Nuke each and every small town in China after US has destroyed all your cities. Receiving nuclear backlash from USA and Russia combined would mean that whole of the Han Race would be extinguished with each and every member of that race dead, not just cessation of China as a nation state as would be the case with waging Nuclear war with one of them.There is no reason for Russia to nuke US in this scenario as it would require US for recovery.

The man's ego is making claims his intellect cannot match. His ego pronounced his theory to be 'novel', and yet back in Desert Storm, Iraq launched missiles at Israel and nothing came out of it. Israel is a US ally. Saddam Hussein threatened Israel in the hope that Israel would be cowed and pressure the US to back off. If what he posited about threats is valid, then why not Saddam Hussein blackmail Syria and Saudi Arabia thus: 'If the US attack Iraq, you will attack Israel, or I will rain Scuds on your capital cities.'

Right...China is going to nuclear blackmail a peer nuclear weapons state -- Russia -- in the event that there is a US-China conflict. I guess Putin is one of a kind in Russia. Every Russian leader after Putin is going to be a limp wristed fop.