China's Ford class supercarrier

[ChineseTiger1986]

True, but having the largest ship building industry in the world certainly would help a lot.

The Jiangnan shipyard can even build a million tonnes oil tanker, but there would have no market for this.

 

[oct605032048]

So it should be well protected.

 

[Nan Yang]

We have used our carrier in real wars, we have bombed enemy ports and enforced blackades.

All you have is dumb cheap insults and computer graphics. Hence the whining! Your argumrnt is flawed, as it starts with the assumption than Indian navy must be equal to Thai navy. Thats plain dumb.

Indian carriers uses Harriers Jump jet. They land vertically and do not requires much space.

This is very different from arrested landing. India is not any more better then China in this aspect. At least China have already build carriers shaped structures on land to train pilots on arrested landing. So China could even be ahead.

Arrested landing makes the operation of the a/c much more complex due to the space required for landing.
Indian a/c are all too small will little space making landing operation very dangerous.

A small mishap like a plane landing hitting a fully fueled and weaponized war plane would be disastrous.


If you look at INS Vikramaditya and compare with China Varyag you will see what I mean.

Look at the location of the lifts. One of the lift is actually in the way of the landing and take off path. So when a plane is landing I do not think that lift can be used. The other is also located too close. In China’s Varyag the landed plane can also be quickly move to the front lift which is out of the way and the 2nd plane can already start to initiated landing. Not sure about INS Vikramaditya. Even their Control tower location does not maximized space.


If you cannot afford a large carrier it is better not to have any carriers. It’s just a waste of money. Or you can use it just as an expensive bragging right.

 

[no_name]

The Ford class really seems to be the most optimised design there is.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The Ford class really seems to be the most optimised design there is.

Of course, it is basically a further improved version of the Nimitz class. And there is no other carrier can compete with the Nimitz class.

That's why the Gerald Ford class carrier is the true benchmark for PLAN.

 

[gambit]

Aircraft carriers are actually very noisy EMS wise so shouldn't that make it easy to detected?

How certain are you about that? Does the PLAN have a plan for 'emission control' (EMCON) like the US Navy does? What does EMCON do to your claim if I tell that once the USS Ranger electronically 'disappeared' for two weeks, conducted flight operations entirely through visual cues, and throughout that two weeks, the Ranger 'attacked' Hawaii without the defenders finding the ship?

 

[gambit]

It's not rocket science.
List of aircraft carriers by country

It is very much 'rocket science'. How many countries in the world have their own space programs versus those that do not? For comparison purposes we should not talk about launching some rinky-dinky test satellites but actual satellites that serves a long term purpose like astrophysics or communication.

As for your source, the columns that matter should be the 'In service' and 'Under construction' columns, not listings of carriers from WW II, which were not truly original designs but conversions. Post WW II aircraft carriers are distinct designs and engineering spectacles in their own right. Any semblance they have to other ships, including the large crude oil tanker type, ends at a few meters above the waterline, and even that semblance will soon disappear, if not gone already. China is the only currently sitting UN Security Council member to NOT have even one deployed aircraft carrier. If designing and building such an engineering spectacle is so 'easy' that embarrassment would have been corrected a long time ago, like even the before the Soviet Union collapsed.

 

[gambit]

Indian carriers uses Harriers Jump jet. They land vertically and do not requires much space.

This is very different from arrested landing. India is not any more better then China in this aspect. At least China have already build carriers shaped structures on land to train pilots on arrested landing. So China could even be ahead.

Wrong...Show us, especially to the unknown readers who have relevant experience, that China successfully simulated the pitching and rolling motions of an aircraft carrier while this simulator conduct air operations like that of a real aircraft carrier. This would be an engineering feat that no country would keep under wraps.

Arrested landing makes the operation of the a/c much more complex due to the space required for landing.
Indian a/c are all too small will little space making landing operation very dangerous.

A small mishap like a plane landing hitting a fully fueled and weaponized war plane would be disastrous.

Valid points. However...This is where yours and others' lack of experience made you look foolish. With less deck space than the American Nimitz class deck, the Indians' carrier deck can arguably be even more dangerous because there is less room for deck choreography between many functions. The fact that the Indians are fielding such a dangerous weapon system, with more under construction, made the Indian Navy ahead of the PLAN on how to deal with a highly dangerous industrial environment like the deck of an aircraft carrier.

If you look at INS Vikramaditya and compare with China Varyag you will see what I mean.

Look at the location of the lifts. One of the lift is actually in the way of the landing and take off path. So when a plane is landing I do not think that lift can be used. The other is also located too close. In China’s Varyag the landed plane can also be quickly move to the front lift which is out of the way and the 2nd plane can already start to initiated landing. Not sure about INS Vikramaditya. Even their Control tower location does not maximized space.

The elevators' locations goes back to what I said earlier about how pitch, heave, and roll motions affect the design. For a ship that WILL have a greater roll motion because it is smaller (hull beam) than a companion in the same sea state, a deck edge elevator is not preferable. I used to regularly sail a 'cat' between the Hawaiian Islands in my younger days. Crafts with smaller hulls but with more than one, such as a catamaran or a 'tri-', are more stable than single hull boats even when both types displaced the same area in the water. So it is possible to have an aircraft carrier that is dimensionally smaller than the previous design but its hull will exhibit less rolling motion to enable deck edge elevators to best exploit limited deck space. In this, the Indian Navy WILL edge even further ahead of the PLAN.

If you cannot afford a large carrier it is better not to have any carriers. It’s just a waste of money. Or you can use it just as an expensive bragging right.

Considering China is the only current permanent sitting member of the UN Security Council that DOES NOT have even one operationally deployable aircraft carrier, we could question the (non-technical) motive for China acquisition of the Varyag.

 

[Speeder 2]

At least those great men of science have RELEVANT EXPERIENCE in the areas of their famous equations and theories. What do you have? Were you a conscript reject? Let me guess, you are a Chinese living in the UK, perhaps even hold British citizenship, but have never served in the military. Have you even wore the uniform of a fast food franchise, let alone the uniform of a military? If not, do not compare yourself with those great men of science.

It's not relevant experiences( it no doubt helps though) , but relevant logic.

Has anyone you know of been to Mars ? yet it doesn't prevent humanity from knowing a LOT of Mars.

NO, Private Gambit, I am Belgian & Dutch national, not British one. And I haven't severed in the millitary. But if I had gone, I would have started as a Lieutenant straight away, if not Captain already. One of my pals went to the army and he is a freegin Major now. Then of course he came from an extreme privileged background...

So that would be " Lieutenant Speeder" for you to start off.

Nonetheless, I've made a clear point that operating basic naval aviation is a simple stuff ( hard to be world class though) as long as one follows the operating precedure; but it's NOT equivalent to , far from it actually, so called "established".

You made a dubious point about Sea State and so on , and went on to build a case that it's very hard to build a carrier.

You haven't refuted my statement, not even close.

Far more smarter readers than you have already seen how wrong you are about this issue already. I debunked you in public, they dismissed you in their minds.

... no , you "debunked" me in your mind with your pump in hand.

 

[Nan Yang]

Valid points. However...This is where yours and others' lack of experience made you look foolish. With less deck space than the American Nimitz class deck, the Indians' carrier deck can arguably be even more dangerous because there is less room for deck choreography between many functions. The fact that the Indians are fielding such a dangerous weapon system, with more under construction, made the Indian Navy ahead of the PLAN on how to deal with a highly dangerous industrial environment like the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Indian got the Vikramadtidya carrier because they thought it would be cheap. And have yet to field an arrested landing carrier.
And their current remaining carriers already lost half its Vertical landing Harrier fleet.

Considering China is the only current permanent sitting member of the UN Security Council that DOES NOT have even one operationally deployable aircraft carrier, we could question the (non-technical) motive for China acquisition of the Varyag.

To protect its Sea lanes.

 

[gambit]

And I haven't severed in the millitary.

That is all we need to know. It is one thing for an inexperienced person to ask questions and be open for corrections, it is another for an ignoramus to make assertions based upon his inexperience and ignorance.

 

[gambit]

Indian got the Vikramadtidya carrier because they thought it would be cheap. And have yet to field an arrested landing carrier.
And their current remaining carriers already lost half its Vertical landing Harrier fleet.

No matter what, the Indian Navy remains ahead of the PLAN. You failed to make your case that China is ahead.

To protect its Sea lanes.

Does not need an aircraft carrier to do that. If anything, if it is merely to protect sea lanes access, an aircraft carrier is way overkill.

 

[IND151]

this super carrier is not only for projecting power. this may be for pride and status which every nation deploying air craft carrier enjoys.

 

[IND151]

To each one his own. If you are referring to Indians plans to acquire 40-50,000T carriers, then its as per Indias requirements. I don't know Chinas requirement for '100,000 tons babies'.
We may be a 2nd class force. But thats good enough when facing 3rd class opponents.

especially those who boast about their highly sophisticated army but can not introduce even a small aircraft carrier in 60 years.

 

[Speeder 2]

That is all we need to know. It is one thing for an inexperienced person to ask questions and be open for corrections, it is another for an ignoramus to make assertions based upon his inexperience and ignorance.

no, that is all you need to to know.

Another thing is that Gambit goes banana whenever fails to make a point with all the experiences he claims that he has.