China vs. Western companies: Best defense is a strong offense

[cirr]

Over-priced western goods should leave the Chinese market once and for all。

Otherwise play by the rules and lower the prices of your goods to a level that's the same as in western markets after due consideration for taxes and duties.

The days when a Mercedes that sells for 100000 USD in Germany or the US fetches 300,000 USD in China are gone.

The days when parts of a car sell for 600% of the car price are also gone.

Stop robbing Chinese consumers,

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Chinese are very good in mass production, monetizing existing technology, mobilizing workers. top down control of society. strong centrifugal force. The only way for white man to win Chinese is to keep innovating. Once white man cease to be creative, it is inevitable that China will be world's most eminent power.

Today, Jews already losing out versus Chinese in competitive exams in USA.

 

[gambit]

I was prepared to write a detailed response until I got to your conclusion. When the sociopath declares loudly and repeatedly that he will kill until he is stopped, he deprives everyone else of peaceful alternatives. We could have peaceful trade with China (which has been enormously beneficial to China thus far), but if China wants a trade war (which would be tremendously destructive to China), it will get a trade war. After all, China gets what China wants, right?

Looky here...The Chinese members here can barely balance a checkbook, if they make enough money at all to have a checking account, a savings account, and at least one credit card. Despite your claim not to be an economist, it is clear to all by now that you know more than most here about high finances and economics from personal experience. Lay out your arguments in terms of mechanics of how things work in your world and watch the Chinese spin in confusion. When they have been bold enough to make claims about Chinese aviation that practically defied the laws of physics, there is no telling what they can do to your specialty, friend.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

To do alot of RD, you have to have access to existing patents. There is already alot of RD going on. It is the typical "building a colony on mars" problem. Lets say you want to build a colony on mars. What do you need? Well, you need air, food, and shelter. That actually means, you need metal plating, machinery, computers, etc. And to get those, you need chips, mills, reactors, etc. And so on, and so on, until you get to the refinery that takes raw iron ore, silicon, etc. and transforms it into steel and monocrystalline wafers - but those refineries need computers, machinery, etc. You have to build things step by step.

And that's what is going on. Things are being built step by step, to accomodate the technological foundation for future innovation, economic success and national security - without being held back by foreign regulations and laws.

See, this is the assumption that you're making - you can cut Chinese people off and Chinese are too dumb to figure it out. Well, you embargoed Chinese in weaponry in 1990; did that happen? In 1994 you said that without "free access to the internet" China will fall behind - did China's scientific and industrial output accelerate or decelerate in that timespan? Reality hits again.

The rest of the world is able to accomplish all of this by licensing the patents and paying royalties, and still managing a profit. Do you believe that the Chinese people are inferior, and unable to accomplish this as well? I don't, which is why this issue is so frustrating--it's unnecessary, and seems designed to provoke.

you keep saying it has benefited us greatly, how did that happen, if not for our liberties with IP.

How can we make Xiaomi, Lennovo, Hai'er, and quite a few other brands.

All you see is these "success," but you never question how we got there in the first place.

You and Russia have sold quite a few countries fighters, why are we the only country capable of developing a fifth gen today with you guys.

Yes, it benefits us, but it benefits us for the exact reason I said. If we didn't learn anything how are we different today than we were 30 years ago.


You really do sound republican, I'm afraid, too black and white, trade war, what trade war. Tough on China, you are not going to do that, and we are not going to go too far.




lol I'm sure you don't realize it, but me and all Chinese feels incredibly unsafe and uncomfortable for you to have this much power over us.

We will do what ever it takes to not be in this situation.

How would it feel if we had the power of saying, for example in 03 we said you go to Iraq and not only will we sanction you to hell but also defend our ally. I mean if we could follow through.

That's the kind of heat we feel.

If you still feel insecure after becoming the largest trading nation, and essentially the largest economy in the world, there's nothing you can't justify. Where are the limits? I'm sure you view all the territorial acquisitions in the SCS as defensive actions, as well. The more I learn about China, the less I understand.

 

[TaiShang]

Western companies that fail to meet the obligations and rules set up by the Chinese government will be punished.

The days when overpriced Western producers robbed Chinese people are over.

China has in fact been quite tolerant towards these firms and we hope to see similar nationalistic moves such as the US meddling in the purchase of UNOCAL by CNOOC.

China is a land of law and foreigners are not granted exemptions.

Expect even more heat over the Western monopolists and we enjoy watching the government pursue people's interests more relentlessly:

Microsoft asked to explain monopoly accusations

A special investigation team questioned Microsoft vice president David Chen and other staff about alleged monopoly activities on Monday and asked the company to give an explanation.

The team led by the State Administration for Industry & Commerce (SAIC) asked Microsoft to provide general information about the company and defend itself against the monopoly charges in a written report within 20 days.

In June 2013, the SAIC investigated complaints from enterprises that Microsoft used tie-in sales and verification codes in its Windows operating system and Microsoft Office software suite, practices that may have violated China's anti-monopoly law.

The SAIC said the company did not fully disclose information about its products, as required by law, causing software incompatibility issues.

Microsoft said it will facilitate the investigation and "actively answer" questions raised in the anti-monopoly case.

The SAIC said the probes are still under way, and it will release results to the public in a timely manner.

***

I would like to see something to this effect in China:

Toyota Motor Corporation president and CEO Akio Toyoda testifies before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on Capitol Hill. (The Guardian)

 

[rcrmj]

and we need to know why U.S had turned down Huawei and ZTE to enter U.S utility market````'security concern'? yes security my @rse

we are going to make our own chip, OS and many other high-tech stuff, and surly ignorant and arrogant western people will laugh at us, like they did 30 years ago on the idea of China becomes an economical power,

and this is just a start

 

[BoQ77]

China did the right thing.
Keep continuing

 

[Genesis]

If you still feel insecure after becoming the largest trading nation, and essentially the largest economy in the world, there's nothing you can't justify. Where are the limits? I'm sure you view all the territorial acquisitions in the SCS as defensive actions, as well. The more I learn about China, the less I understand.

American went from strength to strength. For 200 years we were the lowest of the low. Because of these you would feel secure how ever the world turns out, but we don't unless the power is with us.

Yes, there really isn't much we cannot justify. Yes, South China Sea is defensive.


We are like Don Draper, we don't feel comfortable being in a weak position, we have good reason not to be.

The rest of the world is able to accomplish all of this by licensing the patents and paying royalties, and still managing a profit. Do you believe that the Chinese people are inferior, and unable to accomplish this as well? I don't, which is why this issue is so frustrating--it's unnecessary, and seems designed to provoke.

Just a simple question, Xi has more or less indicated he wants China to be a great world power in 6-7 years, while he is still in office, I suspect he wants an actual war to cement his place as well.

So, how can we do it, "fairly" in that quick span of time, even America and Japan took no less than 50 years and more.

 

[Genesis]

Looky here...The Chinese members here can barely balance a checkbook, if they make enough money at all to have a checking account, a savings account, and at least one credit card. Despite your claim not to be an economist, it is clear to all by now that you know more than most here about high finances and economics from personal experience. Lay out your arguments in terms of mechanics of how things work in your world and watch the Chinese spin in confusion. When they have been bold enough to make claims about Chinese aviation that practically defied the laws of physics, there is no telling what they can do to your specialty, friend.

you are right I can't balance a check book, I got someone for that brother.

 

[gambit]

The rest of the world is able to accomplish all of this by licensing the patents and paying royalties, and still managing a profit. Do you believe that the Chinese people are inferior, and unable to accomplish this as well? I don't, which is why this issue is so frustrating--it's unnecessary, and seems designed to provoke.

If you still feel insecure after becoming the largest trading nation, and essentially the largest economy in the world, there's nothing you can't justify. Where are the limits? I'm sure you view all the territorial acquisitions in the SCS as defensive actions, as well. The more I learn about China, the less I understand.

The Chinese members here does not believe so. However, they do believe that China is 100% justified in EVERYTHING China does, internally and in foreign affairs, to be at least initially a peer to the great powers in Asia, then later to the US globally, and that justification is the time when China was dominated by the Europeans before WW I and later by Imperial Japan in WW II.

There is a tinge of racism as well because most of them have been brave enough to publicly declare that the Chinese people is of a superior Asiatic stock, therefore, ruling Asia is China's birthright. This little corner of the Internet is not the only place I have seen this. This nationalism is the Chinese version of Manifest Destiny and of how the Japanese perceived themselves prior to WW II.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

The Chinese members here does not believe so. However, they do believe that China is 100% justified in EVERYTHING China does, internally and in foreign affairs, to be at least initially a peer to the great powers in Asia, then later to the US globally, and that justification is the time when China was dominated by the Europeans before WW I and later by Imperial Japan in WW II.

There is a tinge of racism as well because most of them have been brave enough to publicly declare that the Chinese people is of a superior Asiatic stock, therefore, ruling Asia is China's birthright. This little corner of the Internet is not the only place I have seen this. This nationalism is the Chinese version of Manifest Destiny and of how the Japanese perceived themselves prior to WW II.

This is a struggle for me. Because most Chinese I have dealt with are internationally-oriented, some of the thoughts and justifications expressed here have been surprising and disconcerting. The Chinese business-people I know in real life are nothing like the users here, but one wonders which population is truly representative of Chinese thought. I have always preferred to think that my pragmatic and open-minded Chinese colleagues were good ambassadors for China, but it's possible that the zero-sum nationalists here are more representative of reality.

The overarching theme appears to be that "might makes right." If China is not stopped, that is proof of China's righteousness, whether it's stealing IP or expanding into others' territory. And yet, when that principle was applied against China, it produced the "century of humiliation," a grievance which the Chinese here nurture in strange ways, i.e. "Europe and Japan humiliated us, so we need to humiliate the United States." I'm sure there's a missing step, but I haven't discovered it, yet. Again, it's surprising that two centuries of weakness in 5,000 years of strength can leave such an impact on the Chinese psyche, especially given their justified pride in their historical impact and longevity. In any case, we have "might makes right," with the corollary, "except when applied against China."

In addition, it's difficult to understand how Chinese society holds itself together with this kind of zero-sum, raw-power mindset. What prevents people in Chinese society from murdering or stealing from each other, simply because they can? I realize now that I need to start studying Chinese ethics to see if I can find the answer to this, because the idea of unity as a nation seems to be in direct conflict with the idea of maximizing one's own power at the expense of everyone else, as applied internationally. (@Chinese-Dragon @Edison Chen Do you have any suggestions for English-language papers, articles, or case studies that might shed light on this and help me understand the issues involved? I would appreciate any guidance.)

Finally, I am always taken aback by what I term China's "aggressive inferiority complex," in the sense that China must always remind the rest of the world how strong it is, while simultaneously proclaiming its own weakness, thus justifying further aggressiveness as a defensive measure. Genesis has explicitly said that under this philosophy, China will be able to justify any action it has taken, or will take, ad infinitum. Chinese-Dragon pointed out how hard the Chinese government worked to suppress data showing China's rise in order to give it space for maneuver. This seems schizophrenic (to the rest of the world, "do you believe me, or your lying eyes?"), but again, the answer may lie in further study of Chinese culture and ethics.

To your point about the Chinese Manifest Destiny, I am starting to notice similarities between the Chinese thought process and the Muslim thought process with regards to Islam as it is today vs. Islam at its maximum historical reach. Again, further study is necessary to develop this idea, but it's interesting how PDF provides the opportunity to contrast these ideas against each other in real time.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

This is a struggle for me. Because most Chinese I have dealt with are internationally-oriented, some of the thoughts and justifications expressed here have been surprising and disconcerting. The Chinese business-people I know in real life are nothing like the users here, but one wonders which population is truly representative of Chinese thought. I have always preferred to think that my pragmatic and open-minded Chinese colleagues were good ambassadors for China, but it's possible that the zero-sum nationalists here are more representative of reality.

The overarching theme appears to be that "might makes right." If China is not stopped, that is proof of China's righteousness, whether it's stealing IP or expanding into others' territory. And yet, when that principle was applied against China, it produced the "century of humiliation," a grievance which the Chinese here nurture in strange ways, i.e. "Europe and Japan humiliated us, so we need to humiliate the United States." I'm sure there's a missing step, but I haven't discovered it, yet. Again, it's surprising that two centuries of weakness in 5,000 years of strength can leave such an impact on the Chinese psyche, especially given their justified pride in their historical impact and longevity. In any case, we have "might makes right," with the corollary, "except when applied against China."

In addition, it's difficult to understand how Chinese society holds itself together with this kind of zero-sum, raw-power mindset. What prevents people in Chinese society from murdering or stealing from each other, simply because they can? I realize now that I need to start studying Chinese ethics to see if I can find the answer to this, because the idea of unity as a nation seems to be in direct conflict with the idea of maximizing one's own power at the expense of everyone else, as applied internationally. (@Chinese-Dragon @Edison Chen Do you have any suggestions for English-language papers, articles, or case studies that might shed light on this and help me understand the issues involved? I would appreciate any guidance.)

Finally, I am always taken aback by what I term China's "aggressive inferiority complex," in the sense that China must always remind the rest of the world how strong it is, while simultaneously proclaiming its own weakness, thus justifying further aggressiveness as a defensive measure. Genesis has explicitly said that under this philosophy, China will be able to justify any action it has taken, or will take, ad infinitum. Chinese-Dragon pointed out how hard the Chinese government worked to suppress data showing China's rise in order to give it space for maneuver. This seems schizophrenic (to the rest of the world, "do you believe me, or your lying eyes?"), but again, the answer may lie in further study of Chinese culture and ethics.

To your point about the Chinese Manifest Destiny, I am starting to notice similarities between the Chinese thought process and the Muslim thought process with regards to Islam as it is today vs. Islam at its maximum historical reach. Again, further study is necessary to develop this idea, but it's interesting how PDF provides the opportunity to contrast these ideas against each other in real time.

The Century of Humiliation was our own fault for being weak. And it is a lesson we cannot forget.

And I think if you start talking to your Chinese colleagues about politics, you may find they share similar opinions. It's just not something that often comes up in regular polite conversation.

Gauging opinions on an internet forum is a very difficult thing, and such opinions may not necessarily follow the mainstream view, or more importantly government policy.

In addition, it's difficult to understand how Chinese society holds itself together with this kind of zero-sum, raw-power mindset. What prevents people in Chinese society from murdering or stealing from each other, simply because they can? I realize now that I need to start studying Chinese ethics to see if I can find the answer to this, because the idea of unity as a nation seems to be in direct conflict with the idea of maximizing one's own power at the expense of everyone else, as applied internationally.

Chinese ethics and culture is very much rooted in Confucianism.

And Confucian societies (Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc.) generally have very low crime rates compared to other countries.

My city for example (HK) has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world, next to Japan.

As for the member @Genesis, he says he was brought up on Western culture and Western ideas. So maybe he is trying to combine the Eastern and Western viewpoints?

China's government policy does not follow zero-sum logic in any case. After all, America and Japan are two of our largest trading partners.

 

[Aepsilons]

This is a struggle for me. Because most Chinese I have dealt with are internationally-oriented, some of the thoughts and justifications expressed here have been surprising and disconcerting. The Chinese business-people I know in real life are nothing like the users here, but one wonders which population is truly representative of Chinese thought. I have always preferred to think that my pragmatic and open-minded Chinese colleagues were good ambassadors for China, but it's possible that the zero-sum nationalists here are more representative of reality.

The overarching theme appears to be that "might makes right." If China is not stopped, that is proof of China's righteousness, whether it's stealing IP or expanding into others' territory. And yet, when that principle was applied against China, it produced the "century of humiliation," a grievance which the Chinese here nurture in strange ways, i.e. "Europe and Japan humiliated us, so we need to humiliate the United States." I'm sure there's a missing step, but I haven't discovered it, yet. Again, it's surprising that two centuries of weakness in 5,000 years of strength can leave such an impact on the Chinese psyche, especially given their justified pride in their historical impact and longevity. In any case, we have "might makes right," with the corollary, "except when applied against China."

In addition, it's difficult to understand how Chinese society holds itself together with this kind of zero-sum, raw-power mindset. What prevents people in Chinese society from murdering or stealing from each other, simply because they can? I realize now that I need to start studying Chinese ethics to see if I can find the answer to this, because the idea of unity as a nation seems to be in direct conflict with the idea of maximizing one's own power at the expense of everyone else, as applied internationally. (@Chinese-Dragon @Edison Chen Do you have any suggestions for English-language papers, articles, or case studies that might shed light on this and help me understand the issues involved? I would appreciate any guidance.)

Finally, I am always taken aback by what I term China's "aggressive inferiority complex," in the sense that China must always remind the rest of the world how strong it is, while simultaneously proclaiming its own weakness, thus justifying further aggressiveness as a defensive measure. Genesis has explicitly said that under this philosophy, China will be able to justify any action it has taken, or will take, ad infinitum. Chinese-Dragon pointed out how hard the Chinese government worked to suppress data showing China's rise in order to give it space for maneuver. This seems schizophrenic (to the rest of the world, "do you believe me, or your lying eyes?"), but again, the answer may lie in further study of Chinese culture and ethics.

To your point about the Chinese Manifest Destiny, I am starting to notice similarities between the Chinese thought process and the Muslim thought process with regards to Islam as it is today vs. Islam at its maximum historical reach. Again, further study is necessary to develop this idea, but it's interesting how PDF provides the opportunity to contrast these ideas against each other in real time.

Good Evening @LeveragedBuyout

There have been a number of empirical studies that tried to examine business ethics across culture, focusing primarily on differences in ethical profiles between cultures and groups. When managers consider whether or not to develop a business relationship with those from a different culture, their decision may be affected by actual differences in ethical profile, but potentially even more so by their perceptions of ethicality in the counterpart culture.

Corporation law in China’s history is only 30 years. Generally there’s no disagreement in the US business circle, however, priority is different. The priority for China is to bring the standard, quality of the product. It is still in primitive stage, and thus it has been involved in quality scandals. There is a dichotomy between Chinese and American corporate culture because the Chinese organizations adhere to the Confucian concept of loyalty to the superiors, there is enshrining of hierarchy. The Western counterparts , which come from the Judeo-Christian culture has a different concept or understanding of ethics and enforcement of questionable conduct. Given the exigencies of ethical misconduct within Chinese facilities and the abject decision to illegally take IP and R&D of foreign overseas institutions based in China reflects on these discrepancies in ethicality. We can excuse China’s lack of regulation and ineptitude in enforcement of law due to its rather recent introduction to the corporate culture in the modern sense, however, what we cannot excuse is the prolific consent towards intellectual theft.


Best,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Good Evening @LeveragedBuyout

There have been a number of empirical studies that tried to examine business ethics across culture, focusing primarily on differences in ethical profiles between cultures and groups. When managers consider whether or not to develop a business relationship with those from a different culture, their decision may be affected by actual differences in ethical profile, but potentially even more so by their perceptions of ethicality in the counterpart culture.

Corporation law in China’s history is only 30 years. Generally there’s no disagreement in the US business circle, however, priority is different. The priority for China is to bring the standard, quality of the product. It is still in primitive stage, and thus it has been involved in quality scandals. There is a dichotomy between Chinese and American corporate culture because the Chinese organizations adhere to the Confucian concept of loyalty to the superiors, there is enshrining of hierarchy. The Western counterparts , which come from the Judeo-Christian culture has a different concept or understanding of ethics and enforcement of questionable conduct. Given the exigencies of ethical misconduct within Chinese facilities and the abject decision to illegally take IP and R&D of foreign overseas institutions based in China reflects on these discrepancies in ethicality. We can excuse China’s lack of regulation and ineptitude in enforcement of law due to its rather recent introduction to the corporate culture in the modern sense, however, what we cannot excuse is the prolific consent towards intellectual theft.


Best,
@Nihonjin1051

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying China will converge towards the Western standard in time?

 

[Aepsilons]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying China will converge towards the Western standard in time?

To be optimistic, yes. I do believe that the Chinese counterpart will eventually converge towards the Western Standard, so long as the Western partners , as well as Japanese partners, remind the Chinese of our bilateral trade relations. There needs to be emphasis , perhaps through lobbying, to encourage the Chinese government to adopt the ethicality of their decisions. A trade war is counterproductive to their (Chinese) interests as well as to the investors. The situation we're placed in now is finding the middle ground. It remains to be seen if this is possible. Or if the Chinese are willing to converge towards the Western Standards. There is also a possibility that they will be unwilling to comply.

Interesting times we live in tho.