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China To Induct JF-17 Thunder into Its Air Force: President Mamnoon Hussain

in economics they say "everything remaining the same".. and then state the laws of economics. sadly here it cant apply because the assumption is that Russians are not doing any R & D , their PAKFA, Berkut, SU 37 Terminator shatters that assumption very badly.
its known fact that by 2018 china GDP willl surpass USA. it means there defence budget will keep up swelling and so will there R&D. that cant be said about russia.
the reason why china didnt gre from 1960 to 1990 in defence is du to absolute isolation from western or russian technology. but 1990s and even today china has acess to many of russian equipments
the soviets didnt grew there own. they mostly absorbed the german tech. all of their first models of subs, plans were all based upon or were exact copies of german tech.

whether china will grow or not will depend upon its econmy and acess of technolgy fro russia. both of which are its in favour
 
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its known fact that by 2018 china GDP willl surpass USA. it means there defence budget will keep up swelling and so will there R&D. that cant be said about russia.
the reason why china didnt gre from 1960 to 1990 in defence is du to absolute isolation from western or russian technology. but 1990s and even today china has acess to many of russian equipments
the soviets didnt grew there own. they mostly absorbed the german tech. all of their first models of subs, plans were all based upon or were exact copies of german tech.

whether china will grow or not will depend upon its econmy and acess of technolgy fro russia. both of which are its in favour

you make a "compelling" argument

its a shame that you were overlooked by our Government in formulating our privatization policy and generating cash to run the state although I know people of same calibre as yours are assisting our ministers as we speak.

I think you should write a paper on this. because more people need to read it
your arguments are "concrete" and leave no room for any argument. @VCheng please convince our friend to write this Economic paper with GDP predictions that are directly proportional to "desired" results from R & D "in a very short time".

specially the last sentence is a killer. it left me speechless and "numb"
 
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you make a "compelling" argument

its a shame that you were overlooked by our Government in formulating our privatization policy and generating cash to run the state although I know people of same caliber as yours are assisting our ministers as we speak.

I think you should write a paper on this. because more people need to read it
your arguments are "concrete" and leave no room for any argument. @VCheng please convince our friend to write this Economic paper with GDP predictions that are directly proportional to "desired" results from R & D "in a very short time".

specially the last sentence is a killer. it left me speechless and "numb"

well thanks for the sarcastic comment. though i was basing my guess on USA defense committee report. i myself have absolutely no idea on defense. its not my field. i am medical professional.
having said that if 1990s china had only Russian equipment or copies with no technical levels and in 15 years they were able to develop multiple indigenous platforms in all three sectors air force, navy and army. then saying that in next 15 years they will stand still is pretty much biase.
isnt that the way Russia started in 1940s and had developed in all field till 1980s. so why cant china do that in 30-40 years since 1990
and yes i still believe that china does access to many Russian arms and Russia isnt still shy of selling anything china wants other wise Russia wouldn't have been selling its engines to china and even offering newer engines to Chinese J-20.
by the way the projects you mentioned su 37 was in late 80s and had flight in 90s and their PAKFA was haulted till india came out to help.
having said yes recently russia has gained the their moment agin again due to its improved econmy. its the money that drives everything
laslty no need to reply if you cant maintain decency in your discussion and i dont intend to reply to you either.
 
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i myself have absolutely no idea on defense. its not my field. i am medical professional.

Allah Save us brother.
having said that if 1990s china had only Russian equipment or copies with no technical levels and in 15 years they were able to develop multiple indigenous platforms in all three sectors air force, navy and army. then saying that in next 15 years they will stand still is pretty much biase.

brother, you have yet again contradicted yourself. recall your post where you said that Russian advancement to 5th Generation platforms was due to whatever Nazi technology they salvaged from the ruins of WW2? (in its own right this statement is borderline insane)

and then you say that Chinese will slingshot themselves from Russian technology jump off point? what prospect does that drive entail when you have already dismissed Russian technology?
 
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Allah Save us brother.


brother, you have yet again contradicted yourself. recall your post where you said that Russian advancement to 5th Generation platforms was due to whatever Nazi technology they salvaged from the ruins of WW2? (in its own right this statement is borderline insane)

and then you say that Chinese will slingshot themselves from Russian technology jump off point? what prospect does that drive entail when you have already dismissed Russian technology?
nope i said that there early designs like their zulua sub and their earliest migs & even earliest migs engines were nazi based. every body knows that
secondly some memebers like oscar were asked about the J-10 they regarded them as favorably good aircrafts. by your assumptions they should be worse than mig 21s. china couldnt built aircrafts till early 2000s due to lack of russian input in the 80s that they had in 90s
laslty may GOD keep you safe you but i have saved many people lifes in emergency so no need to ridicule me in my profession
 
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I don't think they will because JF-17 has foreign components and they already have j10,j11,su27 and su30.
 
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...laslty may GOD keep you safe you but i have saved many people lifes in emergency so no need to ridicule me in my profession
Hello Doc (nice to see someone who shares profession with me). Unfortunately, few members have imposed sort of a hegemony on certain threads/topics here, and consider their opinion(s) the last and final word. They also expect from others to accept it without asking questions. Many of these members are non-professionals (minus Oscar, Gambit and few others) and have acquired information through a long period of time while browsing this and other fora. Their older posts are a testament of this gradual acquisition. For some bizarre reason, they are not really inclined towards discussion or hearing (let alone accepting) others opinion because there is a chance of learning, whereas they already know everything! Instead, they want others to take their words as gospel. 'Fan boy' is a word they use frequently for those who have some inclination towards non-western technology, wheres conveniently ignoring the fact that they themselves are a harcore 'fan boy' of western technology.

They blame China for stealing technology but fail to answer why Russia did not sue the Chinese, and why she continues to deal with China. Keeping US at bay is not good enough a reason for Russians to keep selling sophisticated hardware to Chinese. They also fail to acknowledge that at the end of the WWII, practically thousands of German scientists, engineers, and technicians were transferred to US under a clandestine operation called Operation Paperclip. These scientists played a seminal role in the development of aerospace industry in the USA, which learned Americans by themselves duly acknowledge. They find copying of Su-27 'sharam nak', but not the abduction of an entire generation of German scientist, their knowledge, and works of art. Russia, and UK also took part in plundering but USA had the lion's share.

Chinese advancement in Science is remarkable giving the fact that they are very late-comers to the game (last 30 years since the cultural revolution). Unlike USA, they did not have thousands of top German brains to help them with their aerospace industry. There were no institutions such as MIT, Caltech, Yale, or a huge sophisticated industrial base. Russian input was minimal and cant be equated with that of German input. Yet Chinese manged to copy (and improve) a very complex design i.e. Su-27 (Russians sold Su-27 to many other countries but how many of them succeeded in making a copy?), design their own J-10, FC-1, J-20, J-31. Not to mention their space program. Currently, the Chinese technology is behind (not faaaaaaaar behind as some wish to believe) that of western technology but they are developing fast.

Growing Chinese economy will undoubtedly accelerate this process, whereas research and development budget of the US universities/institutions is shrinking every year (I myself have worked in R&D sector in US so I need no correction here by anyone). We are also witnessing a reverse-brain-drain and a significant number of Chinese scientists are going back home, and taking with them the cutting-edge technology that they have been working on in the US/Europe. BTW, according to the Institute of International Education on international student mobility in 2012, there are a lot more foreign students in China (3,28,000) than in Australia or Germany combined. South Korea sends the maximum number of students to China (21.3%), followed by the US (only 8%). This is all the testament of how rapidly China is emerging as a higher-education and technology hub. Keeping all these factors in mind, we should have no doubt that Chinese will match-up with US in technology in coming years.

These members have also learned that they can conveniently make their opponents leave the threads by calling them names and ridiculing them, thus having the thread all for themselves. Looks like you are the latest victim. But never mind, as we say "Kabrana nahi, tay tilli nahi chadni, hor ghar jaa kar kisi noon dasna nahi".
 
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nope i said that there early designs like their zulua sub and their earliest migs & even earliest migs engines were nazi based. every body knows that
secondly some memebers like oscar were asked about the J-10 they regarded them as favorably good aircrafts. by your assumptions they should be worse than mig 21s. china couldnt built aircrafts till early 2000s due to lack of russian input in the 80s that they had in 90s
laslty may GOD keep you safe you but i have saved many people lifes in emergency so no need to ridicule me in my profession
Zia ul Islam saheb.
Just a little clarification about the last bit of your post from a senior colleague.Islam teaches us that that we on our own are not capable of saving anyone's life but indeed it is Allah Subhana hu wa Ta alah who is the saviour and the taker of lives. I think especially in our profession it is well worth remembering although we often do and should always work hard to try and do our best.
I hope you dont mind my interjection
Araz
 
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Pakistan needs to play a crucial role and come up with a robust, long-lasting, and effective mechanism through OIC by which the relationship between Islamic World and People's Republic of China should developed based on mutual interests, mutual respect, and a true "allied" partnership on global scale.

Pakistan can be a vital card in it.

Throughout history, Islamic Civilization always respected China and held it in high esteem for its wisdom. In 1000+ years of history, there was only one small military confrontation between Islam and China..and that too, was far,far away from mainland China.

We need to bring this tradition to 21st century to achieve peace and stability in the World...

Hope india stops being a jackey to West..

Islamosphere, China, India can lead a new era of global politics where West doesn't dictate its terms on smaller nations..These entities can provide the much needed stabilizing factor to global politics.

Great post, really aspiring !!!!

I wish China buys the new upgraded Jf17 block 2 and 3s for themselves as well as better foreign sales.
 
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Zia ul Islam saheb.
Just a little clarification about the last bit of your post from a senior colleague.Islam teaches us that that we on our own are not capable of saving anyone's life but indeed it is Allah Subhana hu wa Ta alah who is the saviour and the taker of lives. I think especially in our profession it is well worth remembering although we often do and should always work hard to try and do our best.
I hope you dont mind my interjection
Araz
well thanks for reminding me but read your senior friend post , every body knows what he was implying in bold
 
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Hi,

The eyes want to read what the mind has already made up. Nobody is blaming chinese forvstealing technology. The issue is that they do not have enough numbers. Even though they are building at a fast pace, yet they are not in sufficient numbers to make a statement.

Even though our chinese colleague thinks otherwise, the chinese air force does not have fangs large enough.
 
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Hi,

The eyes want to read what the mind has already made up. Nobody is blaming chinese forvstealing technology.

"You see----people who are habitually stealing technology never develop any respect for creating that technology---"

"See---it is easy to steal commercial technology----but not western fighter aircraft engine technology."

"It's not known how far along the Chinese are in creating, or stealing, these materials. Same with engines."

"...state arms export agency, accused China of stealing the designs for the Su-27 (J-11B) and called China's L-15 trainer jet a cheap copy of Russia's Yak-130."

"Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians tried to make the best of a bad situation. "
 
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They blame China for stealing technology but fail to answer why Russia did not sue the Chinese, and why she continues to deal with China. Keeping US at bay is not good enough a reason for Russians to keep selling sophisticated hardware to Chinese. They also fail to acknowledge that at the end of the WWII, practically thousands of German scientists, engineers, and technicians were transferred to US under a clandestine operation called Operation Paperclip. These scientists played a seminal role in the development of aerospace industry in the USA, which learned Americans by themselves duly acknowledge. They find copying of Su-27 'sharam nak', but not the abduction of an entire generation of German scientist, their knowledge, and works of art. Russia, and UK also took part in plundering but USA had the lion's share.

Chinese advancement in Science is remarkable giving the fact that they are very late-comers to the game (last 30 years since the cultural revolution). Unlike USA, they did not have thousands of top German brains to help them with their aerospace industry. There were no institutions such as MIT, Caltech, Yale, or a huge sophisticated industrial base. Russian input was minimal and cant be equated with that of German input. Yet Chinese manged to copy (and improve) a very complex design i.e. Su-27 (Russians sold Su-27 to many other countries but how many of them succeeded in making a copy?), design their own J-10, FC-1, J-20, J-31. Not to mention their space program. Currently, the Chinese technology is behind (not faaaaaaaar behind as some wish to believe) that of western technology but they are developing fast.

There are so many things wrong with this post that I am not sure where to start. I see your post to the gentlemen above and that you are a doctor, so I appreciate the hard work and the top education you acquired and are still acquiring. But as far as the post is concerned, there is a lot of stuff wrong with things conceptually. For example, an event like a War, but in this case, The World War which had half the world torn apart; migration of a few hundred highly skilled workers from Germany or France or the Britain doesn't mean anything. That is a migration for a better future. Its post war and a war that caused many millions of people to die due to Nazis ruthless criminal adventures into other countries and for the crimes they committed within Germany. As a result of a war torn region, people from that region do move away to other places. That's just human beings trying to safeguard their lives, etc. Now if these people are educated and bring some value, I think everyone will be up to bring them to their home.

The US ALWAYS acquires talent from the outside world. Now whether these guys went to a US embassy nearby to get a visa or the CIA helped them, it doesn't matter. Operation PaperClip or Operation Binder or Operation Go Find A Better Life In The US, mean the same thing. A better life awaited these guys who went through Nazi regime's heinous crimes in the history.
What was left after the WWII in the German defense industry anyway? Plus remember, many of these guys went to the UK, Russia, France, etc. I don't see you naming those guys. It's always the US that's the bad guy somehow among the Pakistani community majority of the time? Why twist and break the facts into personal bias and just paint a bad picture about the US without even knowing anything real about the situation 80 years ago???

The US is on the top because our foundation is such that we bring in talent from all over into our institutions. We use everyone from all races, countries and places, pay everyone well and they contribute to America's success in almost everything we make or sell or do. We bring in hundreds of doctors from India, Pakistan and China (and many other countries), same goes for the Technology, Management, Linguistics, etc. That's just how the American society runs. In turn, these smart people that move to the US for a better future, contribute to the American success and achieve a better life for them and for their families. I don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, the UK, the Russians, the Europeans all do that. The US does it a LOT more as it wants the top talent in everything.
So now we are clear about the Operation Get A Better Life In The US, vs. whatever Operation Paperclip :), let's see. These scientists weren't slaves or gave up their skill set for nothing. They earned TOP dollars and helped start larger industries that employed hundred of thousands of people across the globe. So I think the process has a LOT of greatness in it for everyone including a small company making small parts in Pakistan for Boeing, providing jobs and feeding families across the globe.

Even small researchers in the American universities can earn many many millions of dollars if a research in the Medical field produces a medicine that's patented. Similarly, these guys who came to the US for a better life, earned many many millions if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in salaries. So these guys were compensated very very well for their contribution. Your post suggests that the US somehow kidnapped these guys in their sleep and made them work at $ 5 an hour. Please correct your concepts about the US.
Lastly, paying top dollars to talent and coming up with similar or better products than your competition is called "Competitive Advantage". Black and White copying a manufacturer's product, making unauthorized copies without their approval and then producing a product is pure stealing, cheating and illegal, resulting in law suits......so please understand these facts behind the issue of copying the Russian tech or the Western tech by the Chinese....
 
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People are being much too harsh here.

The main point that @syedali73 and @ziaulislam are making is that the leaders -- US and Russia -- also leveraged existing knowledge from other countries. Whether that leverage was "legal" or clandestine is a secondary point.

So, to dismiss Chinese achievements as "reverse engineering" is unfair. The Chinese are doing the smart thing to try and catch up in a race where they joined very late.

However, it is also true that they have a lot of catching up to do. I am sure the Chinese scientists are well aware of it, and would be the first to admit it.
 
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Hi,

The eyes want to read what the mind has already made up. Nobody is blaming chinese forvstealing technology. The issue is that they do not have enough numbers. Even though they are building at a fast pace, yet they are not in sufficient numbers to make a statement.

Even though our chinese colleague thinks otherwise, the chinese air force does not have fangs large enough.






Kid,

Stick with the discussion at hand. The issue is that china is woefully short in frontline aircraft against any aggression with taiwan, japan, vietnam, philipines + the usa.

Son, if you keep digging up my old sh-it then guess what---that is where your head and nose be all the time and that is not a good place to be smelling and poking thru someone,s old turd---hehn.

Just visualize yourself in a mirror doing that and you won,t see a pleasant picture.

Chinese air force was gutted when the switch in strategy was formed. The only reason India, Japan, Taiwan, Korea seems like it can take us on paper is because of this strategy.

What strategy?

Indigenous design and production.


Look at what fighters the Japanese, Koreans, Indians and ROC are using.

American and Russian copies or direct imports.

China only started in the 90s to truly design 4th gen fighters and got our first ones in the 90s.



But it's clear that China will soon be able to far surpass all these nations combined, why do I say that?

China has a couple of engines working at the same time both 4th gen and 5th gen, China has designed several original fighters including J20, J31, J-10, with massive upgrades for J-15, J-16, J-11.

By 2018 It is more than apparent China will be able to mass produce all these fighters, maybe not J-31, and then the true race begins.


So yes, China is weak right now, but ONLY COMPARED TO US, against Japan, J10, J-10b, J-11/variants, and J-16 , Su-30 are more than enough to handle whatever Japan throws our way.
 
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