China To Induct JF-17 Thunder into Its Air Force: President Mamnoon Hussain

[syedali73]

I agree F-16 block 52 can pretty much dominate anything that Chinese can through at it.

I feel compelled to put some cold bandages on the hurt egos so I will finish with this that the West has been appreciative of J-10s and J-10 Bs Super J-10s as they call them but even the second tier aircrafts like F-16s , Hornets etc can easily take them.

Can or could or would is all fine but these are assumptions and speculations (albeit calculated) at best, which remain unproven to date. If there were a conflict where F-16/F-18 were to face Su-30s/J-11 or J-10 and beat them hands down than we would talk. F-14s/16s/18s have proven nothing by fighting against poorly equipped, and poorly trained air forces of Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.

I am not implying that F-14s/16s/18s are not good fighter jets, they are great, but ridiculing MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30, J-10 etc will not be fair too, especially when the two have yet to face each other in real battle.

 

[araz]

I agree F-16 block 52 can pretty much dominate anything that Chinese can through at it no disrespect meant but please ... air war is not about being politically correct.

and their Achilles heel is the communist party, I know it will butt hurt my Chinese friends but the things you just listed state the obvious that over ambitious and border line lunacy sometimes rules the collective logic of the party members I can give many examples but I dont need to do so. the situation is not as dire as is in failed states like ours but time is of the essence and thats what is not on Chinese side. apologies for the lack of term but the shameless and blatant copying of entire Russian Sukhoi's hasn't helped, I dont know if Russians will be too keep to sell their 4.5 generation jets now as they did earlier.

I feel compelled to put some cold bandages on the hurt egos so I will finish with this that the West has been appreciative of J-10s and J-10 Bs Super J-10s as they call them but even the second tier aircrafts like F-16s , Hornets etc can easily take them.

The last bit of your post remains unqualified. At the moment it is your word against the words of the supporters of chinese hardware. No solid evidence of the capabilities of J10 or J10Bs exists to allow a xomparison. The rest I dont have a gripe against
Araz

 

[Irfan Baloch]

but ridiculing MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30, J-10 etc will not be fair too, especially when the two have yet to face each other in real battle.

the Mig 29s have been repeatedly outclassed in Iraq war and the war in former Yugoslavia. thats no ridicule
the Russian war planes have been beaten by the better planes pure and simple its not the fault of the victor if they faced a shabby air force. the Chinese produce has yet to claim a real air victory.

 

[syedali73]

the Mig 29s have been repeatedly outclassed in Iraq war and the war in former Yugoslavia. thats no ridicule
the Russian war planes have been beaten by the better planes pure and simple its not the fault of the victor if they faced a shabby air force. the Chinese produce has yet to claim a real air victory.

Again, there is a difference of day and night between the training and equipment of USAF and Iraqi air force. Flying hours an average USAF pilot logs cant even be matched by a fraction by the Iraqi pilots who were under years-long embargo. The same goes for Yugoslavia and Afghanistan, hence no proof that Russian planes were beaten up by the better US planes. I am not talking about the fault of victor or loser but the parameters used to judge the quality of two sides were uneven by a huge margin.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The last bit of your post remains unqualified. At the moment it is your word against the words of the supporters of chinese hardware. No solid evidence of the capabilities of J10 or J10Bs exists to allow a xomparison. The rest I dont have a gripe against
Araz

indeed its unqualified. its a general statement without specific reference. the Western commentators that include old veterans, professionals, fliers and enthusiasts have shown some keen interest in this plane and its perceived capabilities , the plane was indeed a break trough from the vintage "inlet cones" that China has been following since it started making its clones of Russian jets of the past. but its a tall order for China to fill in all the dead weight of the bygone era fighters it still has and JF-17 or FC-1 will be a good option to fill up that gap.

Again, there is a difference of day and night between the training and equipment of USAF and Iraqi air force. Flying hours an average USAF pilot logs cant even be matched by a fraction by the Iraqi pilots who were under years-long embargo.

and yet again I will repeat

its not the fault of the better trained &better equipped side that its facing a joke. that said
lets list down the Chinese worthy air victories shall we? then we can extrapolate how they will fare against Taiwan, Japan air forces and most probably American navy.

 

[syedali73]

and yet again I will repeat

its not the fault of the better trained &better equipped side that its facing a joke. that said
lets list down the Chinese worthy air victories shall we? then we can extrapolate how they will fare against Taiwan, Japan air forces and most probably American navy.

Repeating a wrong assumption wont make it right. Flying a F-16 Blk52+ by a rookie will not automatically ensure an aerial victory for him. Similarly, MiG-29 losses while being flown poorly-trained Iraqi or Yugoslav pilots does not mean the aircraft was inferior to its US counterparts.

Secondly, I am not favoring Russian or Chinese designs, nor am I saying that US designs are not good. I cant list down Chinese aerial victories because the mentioned aircrafts (J-11, or J-9) have yet to face their western counterpart in a battle.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Repeating a wrong assumption wont make it right. .

you are right and thats the very nature of the assumption. if a statement is backed with facts and figures and examples then it becomes a fact.
but that said there is a difference between a wild and patriotic assumption and the other which shows some reference to matter how debatable.

by the way a rookie wont be sent to an air war and any "green" American pilot will have far more hours under his or her belt than the average Chinese poliot.

to talk extremes

lets assume

American/ Taiwan and japan will face only the Chinese "Aces" who have clocked over 2000 hours at the rate of 250-300 hours a year and are all flying Su-30s, super J-10s and J-11s Vs Taiwanese F-16s, Japans F-15s and American navy's Super Hornets flown by mostly average pilots with less than 3 year flying time.
to make it easy lets also assume that no American ace and veteran is "allowed". and no IOWA class sub is "sllowed" to "tomahak" the Chinese airfields

and Chinese are able to launch all their 100 SU30 MKK strike planes simultaneously with over 200 Su 27s and J-11s providing protection that are simultaneously attacking Taiwan airfields and American fleet with J-10s flying CAPs.

against about 200 Taiwanese Block 20 F-16s and Mirage 2000s, Japans 200+ F2's (F-16 clones) and F-15s
and about 60+ super Hornets from American naval carrier belonging to 3rd or 7th fleet and to make things "fair"
lets assume also that no Aegis cruisers are present and guys operating the protection systems like goal keepers on the aircraft carriers are sea sick.

@MastanKhan I will kie your thoughts too on this scenario

 

[SQ8]

Oscar,

Two thirds of Chinese aircraft in their Air Force don't have any roles to fill in this day and age. They are just simply and purely redundant and they are for show. China cannot get rid of them, because it has nothing else to fill in with large numbers until they increase the production line.

They keep flying those aircraft, but they are flying pigeons and be taken out in a turkey shoot.

5th gen is not the answer. Neither can China afford the numbers nor the maintenance costs for the numbers required. 4 and 4.5 gen are the answer with a better EW package and with more potent bvr and wvr and off bore sight missile that can counter the fifth gen technology.

One more thing I would want to add is----China should have ordered more su30 s from Russia. Where it is at today, and it's current relations with its neighbors, chinese Air Force is woefully short of high end aircraft. Actually for a country of its size, the Chinese air force is in a pathetic position.

I believe that their mentality of copying the Russian design and living on it would take them down in an immediate conflict.

I believe that the Chinese have literally blundered into a sort of a dead end due to over optimistic estimate of their manufacturing and aircraft building capabilities.

Hi,

The fifth gen aircraft is around ten twelve to fifteen years away at the minimum for deployment in numbers that will make a difference.


Out of cleverness, china has put itself in a quandary. At first buying the su30 and then making copies. Today it does not have to numbers to even face Taiwan let alone Taiwan and Japan. Taiwan alone would smash Chinese Air Force. Their only problem is that they cannot endure the barrage of cruise missiles that would destroy the airfields and industry.

If you include Japanese Air Force combined with Taiwanese, the Chinese will be totally smashed. China should have kept its development going full throttle on their local research, but they should have contd buying the su30's.

As of today, our F16 BLK 52 is supposedly more advanced than anything that the Chinese have in their Air Force. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I am correct then the Chinese have miserably failed. One wonders why nations like Vietnam and Philippines are not bowing down to the Chinese , because the Chinese have no force to project except of manpower.

The truth is that the Chinese have totally and truly fcucked up. The first gulf war was a shocking eye opener for the Chinese when they saw the Americans smash the Iraqi armor. That just pulverized the Chinese. That's when they realized the true might of the u s of a.

I would disagree on the quality of aircraft manufacturing and instead focus on engine metallurgy and manufacturing. That is the Achilles heel that China has. Yes, they were awed by GW-1 but it forced a rethink in their strategic ideals. So their purchase history has less to do with the ability to manufacture aircraft and more do with providing them reliable engines.
I would also avoid the rather doom and gloom scenario as there is no empirical evidence to back any of it up right now.

Yes, the PAF F-16AM/BM outclasses the J-10A in terms of avionics and capabilities.. and in terms of radar resolution and sophistication the J-11/Su-30MKK as well. However, that does not leave the aircraft useless nor does it make them any less a threat. The problem is with their numbers.. and its not about the number of airframe they can churn out.. but rather the lack of powerplants to get those airframes in the air. The Chinese want powerplant independence but as such their local industry is unable to provide anything comparable that is RELIABLE enough.

Currently.. the JASDF and ROC-AF do have the ability to inflict severe casualties on China... but that is assuming the battlespace is only aircraft. Within the confines of its territory China has the ability to inflict immense damage on taiwan that would leave most of its airfield inoperable and its aircraft would be struggling to find places to disperse. Which is why it needs reliance on a US carrier group to prevent such an attack and allow it breathing room to fight China in its A2/AD strategy.

The question is of numbers.. numbers that are short due to lack of engine tech.. and not otherwise. I see no place for arguing the pros and cons of the communist/capitalist hybrid China is... as its defense budget is still quite a bit.

Advances in Radar technology will allow China to field certain midway hybrids that may not surpass the Americans in terms of pure sophistication and design.. but will mirror Russian advances with certain upper hands in combination of COTS cost savings with Military grade requirements.

Finally, aviation old hands have various comments on what the Chinese are and where they stand. Yet, there are comments on both sides of the spectrum on how US forces will fall behind unless they update on time as well. dismissing equipment based on.. what exactly? I have no idea.

As I said on many threads.. many old baba's(older than our babas here) recall how before WWII(and around that time).. Cheap copycat stuff and poor design was referred to as "Japanese".. less than 30 years later.. people were worshiping Japanese design and quality. To that old man who still thought Japanese quality was bad.. he would continue to blabber away.. while those that actually used Japanese goods would testify otherwise. Eventually, that old person would be ignored.
The US military is not making the mistake of thinking its fighting the same Chinese of the 90s.. I see no reason to think otherwise either.

 

[xyxmt]

Good! But remember, there are no freebies! It will cost Pakistan billions of dollars to acquire these weapon platforms. And needless to say, the cost of construction of a 1100 MW nuclear power plant is $5 billion. Another three as you mentioned will cost you an additional mind boggling $15 billion.

I dont know how we do but we manage to do it, like a 2 numbaria business man, but who cares as long as its get done

 

[syedali73]

you are right and thats the very nature of the assumption. if a statement is backed with facts and figures and examples then it becomes a fact.
but that said there is a difference between a wild and patriotic assumption and the other which shows some reference to matter how debatable

You look agitated and simply unwilling to see the point I have tried to make in the preceding posts. You also have nothing to back up your assumptions to give them the status of fact. I am not making any wild or patriotic assumptions but simply putting a legitimate question in front of those who are bent upon beleiving US hardware is always superior to non-US hardware.

F-16 shooting downs a Su-22, what kind of comparison is this?
F-16 shooting down a drone, what kind comparison is that?
F-14 shooting down a MiG-23, what kind of a comparison is that?
F-15 shooting down down-graded Mig-29, what kind of comparison is that?

Show me one incident where comparable fighters were flown by US and Russian pilots and than the US machine made the win?

You seem not to agree with the pilot training factor do you?

Why on earth did PAF flying F-86 kept IAF with more modern and superior jets (Hunter) at bay?

IDFAF's Mirages/F-4s were invincible against Syran and Jordanian MiG-21s until PAF pilots took over the charge of the latter.

That is all I am trying to say; Machines are good, but those who use them to their full potential are also relevant. Before making sweeping statements, we should take all the factors into account.

Not long ago, Mastan saheb was presenting Su-30MK as the god of the fighters, capable of launching volleys of 6-12 short and medium-range AAM, and shooting down opponents like flys. Now all of a sudden Chinese got nothing to throw up against F-16 Blk52? That was a sweeping statement then, and the statement made now is as much sweeping. If it is IAF Su-30MK versus PAF F-16 MLU/Blk52+ it is good, the same fighter in Chinese livery is trash against Taiwanese F-16 Blk20. Why changing the goal post?

 

[SQ8]

American/ Taiwan and japan will face only the Chinese "Aces" who have clocked over 2000 hours at the rate of 250-300 hours a year and are all flying Su-30s, super J-10s and J-11s Vs Taiwanese F-16s, Japans F-15s and American navy's Super Hornets flown by mostly average pilots with less than 3 year flying time.
to make it easy lets also assume that no American ace and veteran is "allowed". and no IOWA class sub is "sllowed" to "tomahak" the Chinese airfields

and Chinese are able to launch all their 100 SU30 MKK strike planes simultaneously with over 200 Su 27s and J-11s providing protection that are simultaneously attacking Taiwan airfields and American fleet with J-10s flying CAPs.

against about 200 Taiwanese Block 20 F-16s and Mirage 2000s, Japans 200+ F2's (F-16 clones) and F-15s
and about 60+ super Hornets from American naval carrier belonging to 3rd or 7th fleet and to make things "fair"
lets assume also that no Aegis cruisers are present and guys operating the protection systems like goal keepers on the aircraft carriers are sea sick.

@MastanKhan I will kie your thoughts too on this scenario

First, your whole scenario is unrealistic. To assume that it will all go like some old Cossack charge with the infantry going in first, cavalry later.. and so on. Warfare is very fluid mix. GW-1 is an example of that exactly...
Additionally, there is no need to dumb down the scenario.. as the question is less about the capability of the Pacific fleet to inflict damage on the Chinese.. and more about the issue with Chinese systems. What is it that holds them back? Whether it is just piss poor design or something a lot more expanded?

Air combat is also never Mano a Mano.. rarely ever in either case. Not in the scenario that befalls the PLAAF and PLANAF.
A Mig-29A flown under proper GCI guidance and tactics has a fair chance of blowing F-15Es out of the sky if they find themselves cut off over hostile territory without support aircraft.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

First, your whole scenario is unrealistic. .

indeed
thats the premise, hence the keyword "lets talk extremes"

reminds me of Theorems in Arithmetics where in order to prove that two lines are parallel we started by assuming they are not and hence must intersect and all (fading memory of late 80 hehe).
once we can rule out the absurdities then we can ease down and talk what actually CAN happen and how it will play out

A Mig-29A flown under proper GCI guidance and tactics has a fair chance of blowing F-15Es out of the sky if they find themselves cut off over hostile territory without support aircraft.

hence the advice given to American pilots Never ever to enter into a turn fight with a Mig 29... always fight with advantage on your side and your terms.
the real fangs of China are its ballistic and cruise missiles arsenal that it has deployed along the borders of China mainland. for simplicity and for the sake of the usual story that is touted, the aggressor is assumed to be China that starts with harassing and engaging Taiwanese CAPs and then its airfields.

to be fair, Taiwan on its own has no chance to stand in front of sustained Chinese assault. but what will it follow is very much debatable and hate to say the word but humbling

 

[Developereo]

I am amused by these proclamations that the Chinese are stupid to try and develop their own industry instead of relying on superior imports. It reflects, sadly enough, the Pakistani mindset all too well.

The Chinese may have technology which is currently inferior, and it may remain inferior for a long time compared to countries which have over a century of head start, but there is no alternative to self-reliance.

To quote a wise man, those who don't make a fool of themselves occasionally, never make anything.

 

[VCheng]

there is no alternative to self-reliance.

These words bear repeating ad infinitum.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You look agitated and simply unwilling to see the point I have tried to make in the preceding posts. ?

I love you too baby
read Oscars post above

I am amused by these proclamations that the Chinese are stupid to try and develop their own industry instead of relying on superior imports. It reflects, sadly enough, the Pakistani mindset all too well.

The Chinese may have technology which is currently inferior, and it may remain inferior for a long time compared to countries which have over a century of head start, but there is no alternative to self-reliance.

To quote a wise man, those who don't make a fool of themselves occasionally, never make anything.

wise man is correct
but wise man doesnt realise that the current production capacity doesnt allow the Chinese to fill their fleet with their newer jets at a pace that can offer a face saving possibility in any near conflict.