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China: The Unsatisfied Power

Thank you for this thought-provoking post. I like the general tilt of your thinking, but I wanted to comment on some specific points and ask for clarification. I hope my Chinese friends will not interpret these comments as belligerence, but rather as a relatively dispassionate presentation of an American perspective.



I find this to be an artificial delineation of the German Empire. Bismarck fought three wars as chancellor, so whatever "stabilizing" he did was an attempt to protect Germany from being outmaneuvered, not out of an altruistic spirit or a desire for peace for Europe. Perhaps you can clarify this a bit more, because we can easily compare Bismarck's thought process with China's (as you assert), but it was precisely the "balance of power" calculation that led to the "entangling alliances" that precipitated WWI. Surely that is an outcome that China hopes to avoid, but your narrative doesn't seem to touch on that issue.



I keep seeing this claim from Chinese citizens, and the relation to Deng Xiaoping's saying about hiding capabilities and biding time. The problem with this is that the rest of the world is not comprised of idiots, so even if China pleads weakness, no one believes it. China is a world power, perhaps a superpower, in the world's eyes, so China is certainly not "closer to the beginning." In fact, @Chinese-Dragon has asserted that within 10 years, China's rise to dominance will be complete, and I tend to agree.



I would agree with you, but the SCS issues, the provocation of India during the Xi-Modi meeting, and the ADIZ don't seem to jibe with that view. It would be more accurate to say China had been patient, but now sees a window of opportunity for action. I don't blame it for that thought process, but we cannot call today's China a "stabilizing" force, at least not in Asia.



This is the crux of the difference between the American mindset and the Chinese mindset. Ebola, ISIS, climate change--these are not American problems, they are global problems. Ebola and climate change don't differentiate based on nationality, as much as China might hope they do. Increasingly, neither does ISIS, or at least, Islamic terrorism. We both face all of these issues, so it is not unreasonable to ask for China's participation in solving them.

China's strategic interests benefit China alone, so it is reasonable to expect the US to oppose China on initiatives that exclusively benefit China. Perhaps you can elaborate on why you believe the US is obligated to help China with its strategic goals, but China is not obligated to help with global issues.



We have no basis to believe that. I am not saying that China is lying, but there's no reason to believe that China would stop at the SCS if it sees it can take whatever it wants there without opposition. And why should it stop there?



i.e. "if played right" = submit to China. Is it reasonable to expect other sovereign nations to do so in the modern era? They are no longer tributary states, and there's another powerful player in Asia that presents an attractive alternative.



Agreed, that's why talk of hastening the arrival of a multi-polar world is so disturbing. China has done well under the current world order, and it seems to want to overturn this objectively beneficial system in return for an unproven new system, for what? Prestige? I'm still waiting for a historical precedent of a multi-polar world that was more stable and prosperous than Pax Americana.



Truthfully, this is the argument that is most convincing to me. If China wanted to threaten its neighbors, it easily could use its capacity for rearming to do so in short order. The fact that it has kept its military expenditure relatively modest provides comfort--but at the same time, it will be a glaring warning signal if China decides to significantly increase military spending.



It's one thing to create an ADIZ in the east as a buffer for the mainland, it's another to impose one in the south and essentially force sovereign nations to ask China for permission to fly home from a third party (e.g. from the Philippines to Vietnam, crossing a Chinese-declared ADIZ). An ADIZ in the SCS would probably be interpreted as casus belli, which is why China didn't do it--not out of altruism or a desire to be conciliatory to its neighbors. The proof is the oil rig business. And again, the PLA behavior during the Xi-Modi meeting calls into question just how controlled certain actions are.



It's logical in the sense that if China can get it without a war, it should try. If I were in that position, I would try, too. But it's really hard to justify the nine-dash line based on history, because history changes. The artificial freezing of time at 1945 will not last forever, so if China insists on claiming the entire SCS all the way down to Indonedia, it should be prepared for push-back.



It's clear that China's aims aren't to control the SCS to choke off trade, but rather to exploit the natural resources that can be found in the area. The problem is that this rush to grab resources (and islands to secure the resources) risks precipitating a backlash that might result in a disruption to trade. To me, this is the most confusing part of the Chinese stance: would it risk trillions of dollars of trade in order to get 100% of the resources, when it could preserve the trade and negotiate agreements for, say, 50% of the resources? I understand that China has proposed joint exploration and extraction with the other SCS nations, but the failure to reach agreement doesn't seem to justify a unilateral appropriation of the resources. Again, I understand China's thought process, but there's a point where China goes a bridge too far. Taking an island here or there is one thing, taking the entire nine-dash line is something else.

I acknowledge that China's leadership has been superb for the last few decades, which makes me wonder at the ulterior motive behind these geopolitical moves. I read an article recently that argued that the US should back away from pressuring China to embrace democracy, because the truth of the matter is that the Chinese elite is cosmopolitan, rational, and measured, but the Chinese citizenry is emotional, nationalistic, and xenophobic, so a democratic China could be our worst nightmare. I suspect that the SCS moves are thus less about the resources than about satisfying some of the more extreme elements in the populace, in the same way that the anti-corruption drive has been used to buy goodwill for the structural reforms. Is there something to this, or am I off base, here?

Anyway, thanks again for your article. You often contribute original content, and it's a refreshing change from the usual copy-paste threads that PDF users usually create (me included). Please keep up the good work.

Thank you for the invitation. You pretty much dissected and cover the flaws of that article and I totally agree with your points.

I would also take issue with the statement that China is not a dictatorship, I don't know what definition of dictatorship they use.

The article reflects the typical, paternalistic, everything we do is good Chinese line of thinking. To call their expansion in SCS stabilizing just because they are trying to accomplish it with soft power and no bloodshed is ludicrous.

China is clearly acting on the 18-19th century style of empire building at the expense of everybody else in the region, much in the same way as US did it at that time, but that doesn't make it any better and in the 21st century this type of behavior is much more easily exposed and be seen for what it is than in the past. China's behavior puts it in a collision course with other powers and they risk losing much of what they have accomplished in the last few decades and it does resemble Japan before ww2 in many ways.
 
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I dislike opinion based topics and hope that they are eliminated from this forum.

Now, for the Thai racist:

Normally this kind of thought that China can catch up with the US come from only one fact: China huge population of disciplined working culture. This is the strong point of China w.r.t the US. We now look at what make US No.1.

- If you look at the current dynamic why US is number 1, she is number 1 because of talent management. You see the best and brightest born elsewhere end up to be US citizen. This dynamic continues.
- The US has been inventing new things all the time at the rate China cannot catch up with. If you look back to the world history, the great empire has their new inventions to do things their neighbour can't. The Inca built system of roads for fast information. The Qin of China invented official system that enable China to rule over large land area. Up to current, China only new invention is the revival of ancient silk road. So we will need to see the impact of the new silk road. If the project did change great number of people ways of life and give breath of modernity to central Asia, or create new humming trade route through central asia, then ... Yeah Only that we could say China might catch up with the US.
If China decided to explore more the moon than previously explored, and finally shock the world with new discovery that could be translated into political power, yes, that kind of thing will do help China catching up US.


and the reason that US is still No.1 inventors is because great talent born else where end up US citizen. It is because US is no. 1 world educator. It is because US work culture that is merit base. It is because English is the world language.

All being said, I don't see any chance China can catch up with the US, since US has much faster speed of new innovation.

I suggest China start copy US on this working culture and on being land of immigrants.

You are a racist because racists make generalizations based on race - someone's birth - instead of facts.

I am not posting this because I want to reason with you. Racists cannot be reasoned with because racism is not based on logic.

If what you say is true, the growth rate of WIPO patents and scientific publications in the US would be greater that of China and simultaneously the ratio of US to Chinese publications would be increasing. That is not occuring. In 2013, China showed a 15% rise in WIPO patent applications, while the US showed a 10% rise - a direct contradiction of your claim.

http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/ipstats/en/docs/infographics_systems_2013.pdf

Scientific publications overall show the same trend:

SJR - International Science Ranking

When soft sciences are eliminated, China takes the lead. For example, in chemistry, physics and materials science.

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

The question then becomes - the facts are readily available. The trends are easy for everyone to see. If China was not increasing innovation ability faster than the US is, then the GDP ratio of the two countries would be moving away from 1, but it is moving towards 1 instead. So why have you decided to present a racially motivated (i.e. using meaningless, unquantifiable terms such as "work ethic") argument that disregards the facts? Because it is pure racism.
 
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go ahead, what's a forum for.



This is a misconception, while true US does attract talent like no other, but China has been doing something on a lesser scale.

One of the reasons China's tech sector rose so quickly is because of a government initiative that gave very special treatment to those overseas Chinese that can bring back technology or anything else of value, like management principles and such.

This is largely successful and has led to the current boom in many tech sectors.

Chinese education sector is going into major reforms, and Chinese basic infrastructure has been more or less established.

A side note, in the 1980s, the current WZ-10 attack helicopter chief engineer went into the work force, he had no access to helicopters, funding, computers, or even an experienced mentor. All the new graduates, have these and more now. One generation passing experience and knowledge to the next.

You can copy designs, but you can't copy experience, and that takes time, time we have spent.


Catch up, what does that mean? We must look at it as a whole.

A good example is military.

The first F-15 came out in the 70s, China had nothing. The first J-10 was inducted in 2013, a full 3 decades. American F-22 was inducted in 2006, and there is every indication of induction of J-20 by 2016 or 1017, a full deduction of 20 years.

By the time 6th gen rolls out, China and America will be neck to neck.

You have to remember China started late, not only late, but with nothing. When industrialization happened, we had trouble making a lamp, and I mean that literally.

Chinese smartphone companies are pouring massive amount of money into R&D. Government is pouring massive amount of money into the tech sector.

While it is not apparent now, but it all depends on what you consider to be innovative.




Faster speed based on what? I clearly show you how the time between American innovation, and Chinese imitation, are getting noticeably shorter.

2030, 2050, these are not random dates, pulled out of someone's ***.

Are you so sure that you listed all current US new innovations on military? I'm not expert on this but in general, you need to know all current US new innovation on military before comparing the speed.

I will give you an example on the speed. Can China indigenous CPU beat Intel's speed of rolling out newer faster CPU? or Nvidia's GPU?

China draws back ethnic Chinese talent from the US. but US produce the talent from all earth population. Who will be researching faster?
Your post already gives the answer to yourself. China has been doing something on a lesser scale = slower.
 
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I acknowledge that China's leadership has been superb for the last few decades, which makes me wonder at the ulterior motive behind these geopolitical moves. I read an article recently that argued that the US should back away from pressuring China to embrace democracy, because the truth of the matter is that the Chinese elite is cosmopolitan, rational, and measured, but the Chinese citizenry is emotional, nationalistic, and xenophobic, so a democratic China could be our worst nightmare.

Thanks dude, glad to see your posts again, as valuable as usual, it's always a pleasure to read it.

True, China has no such ground to become the same type of society like the west, at least for now. Japan carried out economic reform in 19th century, then after almost 70 years in 1920s, all the people finally got the right to vote. This is a natural process, every society has its own path.
 
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Thank you for this thought-provoking post. I like the general tilt of your thinking, but I wanted to comment on some specific points and ask for clarification. I hope my Chinese friends will not interpret these comments as belligerence, but rather as a relatively dispassionate presentation of an American perspective.


This is the crux of the difference between the American mindset and the Chinese mindset. Ebola, ISIS, climate change--these are not American problems, they are global problems. Ebola and climate change don't differentiate based on nationality, as much as China might hope they do. Increasingly, neither does ISIS, or at least, Islamic terrorism. We both face all of these issues, so it is not unreasonable to ask for China's participation in solving them.

China has helped with Ebola to a degree at least equal to that of the US, if not more. Never forget that Chinese doctors and nurses are on the ground, right now, as part of an international mission, treating Ebola patients. From what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the US is training locals to treat Ebola instead, because they're scared of doctors and nurses being infected.

ISIS is a problem that arose from US and Western actions, at least indirectly. It is the responsibility of the US and the West to rein in the monster it created. It is also hypocritical that some extremists are considered "OK" and others not i.e. Uighurs vs. Arabs.

Most existing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was put there by the West during its industrialization. Why should others pay extra for the sins of your ancestors? The US is the largest overall contributor to carbon dioxide emissions in history, should it not pay more? What actions has the US taken to combat global climate change? The US is not the largest investor in renewable energy and it is not making any serious national effort to mandate renewable energy.

There's more global issues. Neglected tropical diseases, for instance - how much money do Western pharmaceutical giants put into research on these? Well, they're called neglected for a reason. Are they obscure diseases? Fk no, they're very common, just that the people who have them are usually the poorest (both in the West, and in the world). TB is coming back after being nearly eliminated, even in the US, due to these problems.

You should recognize the contributions of others.
 
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Are you so sure that you listed all current US new innovations on military? I'm not expert on this but in general, you need to know all current US new innovation on military before comparing the speed.

Ask anyone on this forum, the weapons gap between US and China has significantly narrowed. We went from can't make a fighter to 10 years after F-22 and coming out with a similar fighter

I will give you an example on the speed. Can China indigenous CPU beat Intel's speed of rolling out newer faster CPU? or Nvidia's GPU?

Right now? No. Not in that particular field. However China beats the US in the number of Smartphone released each year. Baby steps.

The same is true on TVs, and all the other home electronics.

China draws back ethnic Chinese talent from the US. but US produce the talent from all earth population. Who will be researching faster?
Your post already gives the answer to yourself. China has been doing something on a lesser scale = slower.
Yea it doesn't equal slower. I can see where you are coming from, but that's not exactly how it works.


In the end, the fact you think China won't catch up to the US is kinda weird, you know it was 2010, that nobody thought China could pass Japan before 2020, it was 2000 when nobody thought China can pass Japan period.
 
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I dislike opinion based topics and hope that they are eliminated from this forum.

Now, for the Thai racist:



You are a racist because racists make generalizations based on race - someone's birth - instead of facts.

I am not posting this because I want to reason with you. Racists cannot be reasoned with because racism is not based on logic.

If what you say is true, the growth rate of WIPO patents and scientific publications in the US would be greater that of China and simultaneously the ratio of US to Chinese publications would be increasing. That is not occuring. In 2013, China showed a 15% rise in WIPO patent applications, while the US showed a 10% rise - a direct contradiction of your claim.

http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/ipstats/en/docs/infographics_systems_2013.pdf

Scientific publications overall show the same trend:

SJR - International Science Ranking

When soft sciences are eliminated, China takes the lead. For example, in chemistry, physics and materials science.

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

The question then becomes - the facts are readily available. The trends are easy for everyone to see. If China was not increasing innovation ability faster than the US is, then the GDP ratio of the two countries would be moving away from 1, but it is moving towards 1 instead. So why have you decided to present a racially motivated (i.e. using meaningless, unquantifiable terms such as "work ethic") argument that disregards the facts? Because it is pure racism.

I cannot see any Racist comment from me. Can you show me where did I generalize base on Race?
The strong point of China over US is huge population <- Racist?
A huge population with discipline working culture <- Racist?
That does not mean US does not have a discipline working culture. What it means is that the population with discipline working culture of US is less than China. <- A conjecture for sure. But Racist?

Remind you to choose the example of my racist that you never said the samething before. Because I will certainly go back and find similar example from your post history.


And__ if I am racist. So what? Suppose I say Yes. I am racist. So what?
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Publication is one thing. We are in political/military power forum. Can China translate the research publication to real political power fast enough? That is the speed I am talking about. You can publish faster than Intel on CPU, yet your CPU rolling out rate is slower pace.

You know. A good publication on No.1 journal has more impact than 200 publications on mid level journal combined.
 
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While I believe thinking that Americans are "stupid, lazy and fat" is a ridiculous statement. I do believe that America isnt producing a scientific community but in fact importing them. Check out this video guys:

@LeveragedBuyout @SvenSvensonov

@Nihonjin1051


The US does attract top-tier talent, but it grows it too. Many of the big names in tech, military systems, finance... And whatever else are foreigners. But for every foreigner there is a homegrown American standing as their equal. No one demographic has been more important then any other... We are in this together.
 
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Viet and Indian IQs in their best.

Why do you have to degrade the otherwise great thread? @Hu Songshan , sir, please save this thread from the Indian and Viet (not all of them, of course).

So, back to the topic.

Sorry for posting without reading the thread :-)

China's 4 Goals:-

1)Recover Lost Land:
Its obvious from China's aggresssion and its various statements, that China wants to reclaim the lost territories. Invasion of tibet, disputes with various countries display it clearly. Its like India claiming Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka. China and India had existed for thousands of years with various names and had been invaded by many other old world regimes be it Turk for India or Mongolia for China. Yet its true that Republic(Dominian 1947-1950) of India came into exsistence in 1947, so does Republic of China in 1912. Claiming the lost land is China's #1 priority. This is what China is growing today for the most.

2) Shamefull Past: Past memories of Japanese invasion of China and humiliation of China's civilians and army's defeat is haunting it even today. One can see the intense rivalry between China and Japan in sports, technology, arms race, each country trying to display themselves as superior 'race' to each other. While the competition is mostly on field today, it may not be so tommorow.

3) People's China: China indeed care for its people and wants to improve the quality of life for them, given that no one questions or interferes the government institutions or its policy(s). There is no place for democracy in China, atleast not in near future.

4) Lead the World: Leading the world is currently China's least priority. Its hard to digest a profit hungry communist regime with not much freedom or rights leading the world. In future China might lead the world in innovation but will not be able to give directions to smaller nations with current setup. This is proved by China's very low funding of aids to various international organisations as compared to US or Japan.

Note:- Do not quote me with factualy incorrect or contradicting statements.
 
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Well India is the prime example of political liberalization before economic development, in a "developing" country.

China and India have similar population sizes, but China's GDP is $10.4 trillion compared to India at $1.8 trillion. India's social development indicators are nearly the lowest in the world.

Comparing China and India from the point of "political liberalization" is very unfair towards China, as China does not even have national integrity when compared to India, due to lack political liberalization.

That just shows we shouldn't rush too fast in terms of political reforms. We should become a developed country FIRST, since that's how it happened in East Asia, and even in the Western world.

Political reforms should never be rushed, but certainly not delayed
 
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Ask anyone on this forum, the weapons gap between US and China has significantly narrowed. We went from can't make a fighter to 10 years after F-22 and coming out with a similar fighter



Right now? No. Not in that particular field. However China beats the US in the number of Smartphone released each year. Baby steps.

The same is true on TVs, and all the other home electronics.


Yea it doesn't equal slower. I can see where you are coming from, but that's not exactly how it works.


In the end, the fact you think China won't catch up to the US is kinda weird, you know it was 2010, that nobody thought China could pass Japan before 2020, it was 2000 when nobody thought China can pass Japan period.

We are talking about different level of Innovation.
You are talking about Country level of innovation -> planes, tanks, phones.

Im talking about civilization level of innovation -> create the whole mobile phone industry, create the whole computer industry, and Yes. new silk road is civilization level of innovation, given current trade are sea base, to change it to Eurasia continental base is civilization level of innovation (but is more political innovation than technical). China need one of this.
 
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The US does attract top-tier talent, but it grows it too. Many of the big names in tech, military systems, finance... And whatever else are foreigners. But for every foreigner there is a homegrown American standing as their equal. No one demographic has been more important then any other... We are in this together.

While I believe thinking that Americans are "stupid, lazy and fat" is a ridiculous statement. I do believe that America isnt producing a scientific community but in fact importing them. Check out this video guys:

@LeveragedBuyout @SvenSvensonov

@Nihonjin1051


I agree with @SvenSvensonov in that there are opportunities to be had here in the 'states for those who looking to expand one's horizons. @SipahSalar , As one who is in the 'states through the H1B visa program, I guess I would qualify for one of those foreign students taking advantage of the opportunities here in the states. I don't want to speak for others, but I'll speak on behalf of myself. The reason why I opted to pursue my graduate/doctoral program here in the 'states is because of the opportunity one can avail here, that and the fact that I was offered a full ride at my particular university. My fellow Ph.D cohorts come from a varied background; I'd say around 35% are foreign citizens, and the rest are US-born, but even the US-born are from multicultural backgrounds; South Asian, East Asian, European-American, Latinos.

The United States has a plethora of research programs ranging from Human Science, Medical Science, Physical Sciences, Literature, et al, and provide programs for foreign Ph.Ds to come to the states such as the Fulbright Scholar Program, which elects to bring in about 4,000 foreign researchers / specialists to the states. The Untied States is a magnet for academe; foreign and domestic and this shouldn't be considered a fault since the United States, in itself, is a nation that is founded on immigrants.

This process is nothing "new".

Celebrate this diversity. Afterall, the American National Motto is: E Pluribus Unum. Out of Many, One. ;)

Beautiful ;)

Akon- Beautiful Instrumental - YouTube
 
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With great power comes great responsibility, not because we got bit by a magical spider, but because we are literally everywhere, and we have the ability to make that change. People will expect it, both domestic and abroad.
Actually, with any aspiring power, regional or global, the correct phrase is: 'With great power comes great opportunities.' Not one in history have ever deviated from that truth. Altruism is secondary in importance when it comes to choices in exercising power and influence. Any decision made, especially when a country is rising in prominence, whether by accident or by choice, will be made with emphasis on how to make the country stronger in order to deter, if not discourage, challengers from becoming rivals.

China is no different.

The US cannot say that we must help with Ebola, ISIS, and climate change, while cockblock us on other issues closer to home and far more important to our own strategic interests.
Then do not expect China to deviate from the truth as stated above. Ebola is an indiscriminate threat that recognizes no borders and nationalities. Same with climate change. These are altruistic endeavors. Islamic radicalism is a material as well as ideological threat that selects victims at its convenience. China will confront Islamic radicalism without any prompting from US.
 
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Just stating what i think knowing that not everyone will agree with me. I am clearly not againt any particular country, rather just critisizing communism which indeed does not believe in letting enjoy life according to people's will but forces them to work for hours. I certainly does not have much idea of how much closer to ideal is communism in China but is certainly not the model for an ideal state in the 21st century.
 
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