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China takes cue from Gujarat Inc

That is a white lie. Why would anyone kill someone who was doing just good ? Just out of the blue ? Something does not add somewhere.

Did Dara Singh cite any such reason in self-Defence? He was represented by the best Sangh Parivar lawyers.

Would you burn somebody alive because you do not believe that he could be a medical missionary, following his religious ta hinge to help the poor and the sick? Would you burn alive his infant children with him?

And if he was not killed for conversions, then most certainly it was due to some personal enmity between Dara and Staines which again blunts the charge that it was motivated due to religious hatred and intolerance. It could be for any number of reasons not necessarily motivated by religious hatred. Checkmate.

Are you aware that Dara Singh had never met the missionary in his life? Have you read the transcripts of the trial? Or newspaper accounts, at least?

Would you burn alive people who give women brassieres and sanitary towels? Is that what your vision of Hindu nationalism reduces to?

In an interview with Hindustan Times, one of the accused killers, Mahendra Hembram, told that "they were provoked by the "corruption of tribal culture" by the missionaries, who they claimed fed villagers beef and gave women brassieres and sanitary towels." [10]

BTW if people like those white lady continue standing inside a temple and condemning those idolators to eternal hellfire as I showed before, then sure the locals would be enraged. The solution is banning these goras from coming on religious visas except for pilgrimages to India.

Are you aware that there is no religious visa? Do you think before you write?
 
How is that giving special privilege in terms of practising some law where muslim women will not be accorded equal rights or the muslim children not provided the compulsory education(not the Madrasa education) help the muslims?

It does not.

Who said it did?

Muslim children in the vast majority of cases go to madrasahs because there is no choice, no government schooling available! Are you aware that the state governments have encouraged madrasahs because they could not afford t extend the school system? Are you aware that Hindu children go to madrasahs in some places, due to lack of an alternative?
 
Battle not in the military sense but a battle nevertheless, those who died in Godhra did not die in vain.

You dishonour all our brave soldiers who died defending a country where all citizens ca live in peace. You should be ashamed of equating those sadistic killers with soldiers of the Indian army.



100% right, Are you a betting man? I will wager with you to see if Modi ends up in jail or not.

If blowing hot air were an Olympic sport, I would bet on you for gold. That is the sum total of betting I am willing to do with you.
 
It does not.

Who said it did?

Muslim children in the vast majority of cases go to madrasahs because there is no choice, no government schooling available! Are you aware that the state governments have encouraged madrasahs because they could not afford t extend the school system? Are you aware that Hindu children go to madrasahs in some places, due to lack of an alternative?

Isn't that what the AIMPLB is opposing to leave out the minority institutions and Madrasahs from the RTE so that they can control the curriculum and the funds(even the funds provided by the HR's ministry's Quality of Education Scheme?) and on the other side, deny the poor kids education?

On a separate note, how many Madrasahs meet the standards of even a government school? There might few of them but can you quality the statement that Madrasahs in general provide quality education?

Having stated that, the core issue here is whether Muslims should be provided special privilege being a minority to control their own laws which goes against the tenet of a secular state where certain population is left to be controlled by their religious leaders.
 
When a time comes when we have to take a stand, these civilizational similarities mean a lot.

I'll give you an example. Even if tomorrow the Kashmir issue is solves I dont think everything will become hunkey-dory between Indian and Pakistani...The emotions would hardly change. But if tomorrow the small border dispute between India and China is solved none of the Indians would have any ill-feeling about China. Anyway I'm going offtopic.

But India has no problems with nations in the Middle East, North Africa or Central Asia. Religion per se is not the issue. The problem is the rivalry across the fault-line created within a society when some of its members succumbed to conversion by marauding fanatics. This rivalry was successfully exploited and exacerbated by colonial powers, who backed the Pakistan movement to the hilt, and continued to supply the new nation with weapons to attacks its neighbors.

But I agree that India and China need to get along. Sometimes one feels that China is in some respects closer to Dharmic values than India is. The long period of colonization in India has created slavish minds, examples of which are not lacking on this board.
 
... unleash mobs on people who belonged to the same religion as those he held guilty, BUT HAD NOTHING MORE TO DO WITH THEM THAN THAT!

It is not clear that the mobs were under his control, many of the rioters from both sides are actually members of the Congress party. Yet I do not see you spitting venom against Maino as is your wont against Modi, nor do I see you wax eloquent on the 1984 Holocaust.
 
Would you burn somebody alive because you do not believe that he could be a medical missionary, following his religious ta hinge to help the poor and the sick? Would you burn alive his infant children with him?

That regrettable incident is the consequence of the failure of the Government to follow the rule of law. Staines had no business to be going around tribal areas trying to soften up the tribal societies for conversion. The correct course of action would have been to deport him.
 
Isn't that what the AIMPLB is opposing to leave out the minority institutions and Madrasahs from the RTE so that they can control the curriculum and the funds(even the funds provided by the HR's ministry's Quality of Education Scheme?) and on the other side, deny the poor kids education?

On a separate note, how many Madrasahs meet the standards of even a government school? There might few of them but can you quality the statement that Madrasahs in general provide quality education?

Having stated that, the core issue here is whether Muslims should be provided special privilege being a minority to control their own laws which goes against the tenet of a secular state where certain population is left to be controlled by their religious leaders.

Let the AIMPLB say and do what they want. They have just as much legitimacy as Anna Hazare's brat pack, and just as legitimate a claim to speaking for their constituency. Only a government thoroughly bankrupt of principle would succumb to their blackmail. They are not relevant to the situation any more than you are, or I am, so why are you quoting them as some kind of authority?

For your next question, who said that Madrasahs in general provide quality education? I am sorry to be harsh to a person I have always found to be well-intentioned and imbued with conscientiousness, but are you incapable of reading a simple statement and getting its sense? In fact, how is it that you read my opinion about madrasahs being the last refuge of a government that could not afford its own schools, and fell back on the madrasah? Did that sound to you like a recommendation of a madrasah?

Your last question has nothing to do with the first two. Those first two,relating to madrasahs, related to article 20 of the constitution. Before going further, please read and understand that damn' article, and please do a better job than you made of reading and understanding my sentences.

You should know, to finish the discussion on article 30, that Bhairava was so unwise to bring up for examination, that this article addresses not ONE but TWO of the fundamental rights in our constitution. You should also recall that the supreme court has guarded the people of India against demagogues and dictators to the extent that an unarmed judiciary with only morality at its command can do, by laying down as a feature of the interpretation of the constitution which is within their purview that THE BASIC STRUCTURE OF THE CONSTITUTION MAY NOT BE CHANGED. No bigot can fiddle with these fundamental rights, come what may.

Article 30 forbids mala fide interference by government with minority educational institutions; mala fide interference only, not healthy, normal supervision. But read for yourself:

As India is a country of many languages, religions, and cultures, the Constitution provides special measures, in Articles 29 and 30, to protect the rights of the minorities. Any community which has a language and a script of its own has the right to conserve and develop it. No citizen can be discriminated against for admission in State or State aided institutions.[36]
All minorities, religious or linguistic, can set up their own educational institutions to preserve and develop their own culture. In granting aid to institutions, the State cannot discriminate against any institution on the basis of the fact that it is administered by a minority institution.[37] But the right to administer does not mean that the State can not interfere in case of maladministration. In a precedent-setting judgment in 1980, the Supreme Court held that the State can certainly take regulatory measures to promote the efficiency and excellence of educational standards. It can also issue guidelines for ensuring the security of the services of the teachers or other employees of the institution. In another landmark judgement delivered on 31 October 2002, the Supreme Court ruled that in case of aided minority institutions offering professional courses, admission could only be through a common entrance test conducted by State or a university. Even an unaided minority institution ought not to ignore the merit of the students for admission.

Do you find anything dreadfully unreasonable in this? Do you find another Pakistan growing within these institutions, or another Vatican?

Most of the fog created by the Hindutva-vadi is in order to hide their own unsound thinking, based on incomplete information and knowledge, and to confuse other unwary observers or neutral by-standers.

Now consider your third, and last question. Do you really want to ask it any more?
 
It is not clear that the mobs were under his control, many of the rioters from both sides are actually members of the Congress party. Yet I do not see you spitting venom against Maino as is your wont against Modi, nor do I see you wax eloquent on the 1984 Holocaust.


If you notice, I have never called Modi anything but Modi. This is basic decency. I detest him, as i detest Sonia Gandhi, but i would not lose my own manners and display bad breeding by slandering a person on the grounds of ethnic, caste or religious background. If you want to address a question to me, please display a certain minimum breeding and manners.

That regrettable incident is the consequence of the failure of the Government to follow the rule of law. Staines had no business to be going around tribal areas trying to soften up the tribal societies for conversion. The correct course of action would have been to deport him.

Please explain to me what you define by softening up tribal societies for conversion. Brassieres and sanitary napkins?
 
I think its all management. He know how to manage the resources of that state. Gujarat has developed itself with its own resources without much help from central Govt. While states like West Bengal and Bihar demands special packages from center.

Politics of Gujarat least affect Center.

not only that but Gujarat also has good ports and gujjus are born businessmen

plus rich gujjus all over the nation have communities which aim at more prosperous, developed Gujarat

these all things make difference
 
i don't think China believes in taking leaf out of books of her allies

He was referring to India, as you very well know.

I think, as we keep telling the Pakistanis, we ought to fix our own problems before pointing at our neighbours.
 
If you notice, I have never called Modi anything but Modi. This is basic decency. I detest him, as i detest Sonia Gandhi, but i would not lose my own manners and display bad breeding by slandering a person on the grounds of ethnic, caste or religious background. If you want to address a question to me, please display a certain minimum breeding and manners.

umm ... what slander? But the point is that it is not clear that the Congress mobs were under Modi's control.

Please explain to me what you define by softening up tribal societies for conversion. Brassieres and sanitary napkins?

Staines was a Baptist missionary, a breed that tends to be interested in converts. He should have been lawfully deported.
 
Let the AIMPLB say and do what they want. They have just as much legitimacy as Anna Hazare's brat pack, and just as legitimate a claim to speaking for their constituency. Only a government thoroughly bankrupt of principle would succumb to their blackmail. They are not relevant to the situation any more than you are, or I am, so why are you quoting them as some kind of authority?

I know AIMPLB are not legitimate sources but you can't club them with Anna Hazare's pack in that for all practical purposes, the government in cahoot with them have always succumbed to their blackmail. Can you definitely say that AIMPLB does not command the power? So why can't I quote them as some kind of authority?


For your next question, who said that Madrasahs in general provide quality education? I am sorry to be harsh to a person I have always found to be well-intentioned and imbued with conscientiousness, but are you incapable of reading a simple statement and getting its sense? In fact, how is it that you read my opinion about madrasahs being the last refuge of a government that could not afford its own schools, and fell back on the madrasah? Did that sound to you like a recommendation of a madrasah?

In my response to mfreak's post, I was ignoring Madrasahs due to the lack of quality education and I agree I misunderstood your response to that.


You should know, to finish the discussion on article 30, that Bhairava was so unwise to bring up for examination, that this article addresses not ONE but TWO of the fundamental rights in our constitution. You should also recall that the supreme court has guarded the people of India against demagogues and dictators to the extent that an unarmed judiciary with only morality at its command can do, by laying down as a feature of the interpretation of the constitution which is within their purview that THE BASIC STRUCTURE OF THE CONSTITUTION MAY NOT BE CHANGED. No bigot can fiddle with these fundamental rights, come what may.

Article 30 forbids mala fide interference by government with minority educational institutions; mala fide interference only, not healthy, normal supervision. But read for yourself:



Do you find anything dreadfully unreasonable in this? Do you find another Pakistan growing within these institutions, or another Vatican?

Most of the fog created by the Hindutva-vadi is in order to hide their own unsound thinking, based on incomplete information and knowledge, and to confuse other unwary observers or neutral by-standers.

Not sure what Bhairava's postings have got to do with my response. If you see, my postings are independent of Bhairava's as his views and mine are entirely different. I consider myself a centrist but point out the hypocrism in some of the secularists who are soft with some minority conservatives and raise their shrill voices when it comes to hindutva parties. But beyond that I am not comfortable with religion or religious based parties but when it comes to picking something, I tend to pick lesser of the two evils and might end up picking a religious based party given the limited choice before me(in this case read it as BJP)

Now consider your third, and last question. Do you really want to ask it any more?

My third question still stands - why do minorities need to have different laws especially when the government finds it difficult to refine the laws due to opposition by religious conservatives especially in case of muslims - case to point again - Shah Bano case. And these different laws for different religions are nothing but the legacy of the British?
 
I know AIMPLB are not legitimate sources but you can't club them with Anna Hazare's pack in that for all practical purposes, the government in cahoot with them have always succumbed to their blackmail. Can you definitely say that AIMPLB does not command the power? So why can't I quote them as some kind of authority?




In my response to mfreak's post, I was ignoring Madrasahs due to the lack of quality education and I agree I misunderstood your response to that.




Not sure what Bhairava's postings have got to do with my response. If you see, my postings are independent of Bhairava's as his views and mine are entirely different. I consider myself a centrist but point out the hypocrism in some of the secularists who are soft with some minority conservatives and raise their shrill voices when it comes to hindutva parties. But beyond that I am not comfortable with religion or religious based parties but when it comes to picking something, I tend to pick lesser of the two evils and might end up picking a religious based party given the limited choice before me(in this case read it as BJP)



My third question still stands - why do minorities need to have different laws especially when the government finds it difficult to refine the laws due to opposition by religious conservatives especially in case of muslims - case to point again - Shah Bano case. And these different laws for different religions are nothing but the legacy of the British?

Before i write i uphold my white flag to both parties here :angel:

I liked the word centrist, in a sense me too. While i don't like too much of Hindutva propaganda i can't accept pseudo secular approach of Congress too.

I am also interested in this point, can there be a single law for all??
 
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