China: SCS ADIZ is an Option

[gambit]

That means I can establish a kangaroo court in my home...

Absolutely you can. But you missed the point, as usual with you guys.

If China feels the need to establish or convene another arbitration, by any mean and with any ally, China essentially admitted that the current PCA has validity in terms of being a credible body for international arbitration.

 

[TaiShang]

China says ADIZ in South China Sea depends on threat

(Xinhua) China said on Wednesday that it will decide whether to declare an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) in the South China Sea in accordance with the level of threat.

"The ADIZ is not a Chinese invention, but rather that of some big powers. If our security were threatened, of course we have the right. It depends on our comprehensive judgment," said Vice Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin at a press briefing at the Information Office of the State Council.

A white paper titled "China Adheres to the Position of Settling Through Negotiation the Relevant Disputes Between China and the Philippines in the South China Sea" was published on Wednesday, after an award was issued on Tuesday in the arbitration unilaterally initiated by the former Philippine government.

Liu urged other countries not to "take the opportunity to threaten China," and called on other countries to work with China to jointly maintain peace and stability in the South China Sea.

Liu reiterated that settling relevant disputes between China and the Philippines in the South China Sea through negotiation is the consistent policy of the Chinese government.

The South China Sea issue is not a problem between China and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), Liu stressed, saying that China would make joint efforts with ASEAN countries to resolve the disputes through negotiations, manage disputes by making rules, and achieve win-win results by practical cooperation.

"We hope to work with countries surrounding the South China Sea, including ASEAN members, abide by the Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea, maintain peace and stability as well as the freedom of navigation and overflight in the South China Sea," Liu said.

He noted such a policy has not changed and will not change.

As for the arbitration award, the vice foreign minister reaffirmed that China will not execute the award. He called on the Philippines to return to the track of bilateral negotiation.

The five-member arbitration tribunal is neither an international tribunal nor an international court of justice under the UN framework, he said, adding that it is neither an international tribunal for the law of the sea nor a permanent court of arbitration.

Thus, he said the tribunal lacks authority and credibility, and the award of the South China Sea arbitration is null and void.

He said China has made unremitting efforts to resolve the South China Sea issue in a peaceful manner, and reached important consensus with successive Philippine governments on resolving the disputes peacefully and promoting maritime practical cooperation.
Commenting on the positive reactions from Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte and his government, Liu said China stands ready to work with the new Philippine government, properly settle the South China Sea disputes and bring bilateral ties back to the right track at an early date.

The two countries will continue promoting maritime cooperation and common development, and not allow the disputes to affect the healthy development of their relations and peace and stability in the region, according to the vice foreign minister.

 

[S10]

Absolutely you can. But you missed the point, as usual with you guys.

If China feels the need to establish or convene another arbitration, by any mean and with any ally, China essentially admitted that the current PCA has validity in terms of being a credible body for international arbitration.

That's why this kangaroo court's decision is being ignored, like the 16 decisions it issued before.

 

[gambit]

That's why this kangaroo court's decision is being ignored, like the 16 decisions it issued before.

Regardless of what happened in the past. No one expects China to agree to the court's decision. No one. Not from the petitioners. Not from the court's judges. This is another point that you guys missed.

The PCA is not there to issue judgments so someone else would enforce it. The PCA's mission is to listen and issue its opinions based on laws, history, precedents, and arguments. It does not care if the petitioners obey its judgments or not, and enforcement is left to the governments.

What make the PCA's judgments valuable, whether a judgment is obeyed or ignored, is that in referencing a judgment, one side uses it to support its claim for while the other side uses it to criticize against, all sides tacitly acknowledge that there is an international opinion on how to maintain inter-state order and stability. No one sane expects China to agree to the court's judgment. No one needs even %1 of cynicism to know that China will publicly denounce the PCA.

But this is what will happen if China resorts to violence in objections to the PCA...

Since everyone, including your China, pretty much admitted that there must be some semblance of international order and stability, and China being a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a body whose existence is about order and stability, China will be publicly condemned and vilified when lives are lost at Chinese hands. China's allies, including Pakistan, will offer only mealy mouthed verbal support, nothing else.

Do you know the meaning of mealy mouthed ?

- avoiding the use of direct and plain language, as from timidity, excessive delicacy, or hypocrisy; inclined to mince words; insincere, devious, or compromising.

Pakistan will not be that 'brother' you guys been mindlessly repeating. China will be alone.

Then when an alliance of Asian powers, including Australia, enters the SCS in force to contain China and make sure the SCS remains the property of the world, China will be all alone. Putin might say something Putin-esque, but Russia will benefit with a free SCS, so Russia will stay out of the fray. Pakistan ? Meh. Nothing Pakistan can do, let alone will do.

China can ignore the PCA, but if China does not respond militarily to enforce Chinese claim to the entirety of the SCS, any public declaration of disregard for the PCA will be cast aside. No military response is essentially an obedience to the PCA. That is what the world will perceive. If China respond militarily but become contained by superior might, the world will see China as defeated, hence China ignoring the PCA is meaningless.

 

[TaiShang]

That's why this kangaroo court's decision is being ignored, like the 16 decisions it issued before.

The court simply did what their payment required them to do.

But, China, with no stake in this payment scheme, is not a party, from the beginning. Hence it was the PH and the supporting external actors that assumed China's cost in the unilateral single-party arbitration.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The fact on the ground is, the islands are growing and improving. In real world, that's what really matters.

The rest is spoken or written words with, so far, no real effect.

So, based on the present reality, we may argue, the paid court ruling has not changed the situation. If it ever begins to change, then we may start to talk about that. But currently, it is all abstract thinking.

So far, China does not mind what the paid court said about island development; and the rest of the most of the region does not mind what China has been doing with its own islands in its own waters.

You hit the nail on the head there brother.

What matters is hard facts on the ground, and in those terms we are building islands and airfields (and soon floating nuclear reactors) at a strong pace.

And the truth is that nobody in the world cares enough to stop us, either by military force or even basic sanctions. They aren't even cutting off $0.1 in trade relations for it.

 

[TaiShang]

You hit the nail on the head there brother.

What matters is hard facts on the ground, and in those terms we are building islands and airfields (and soon floating nuclear reactors) at a strong pace.

And the truth is that nobody in the world cares enough to stop us, either by military force or even basic sanctions. They aren't even cutting off $0.1 in trade relations for it.

Definitely, bro. I would argue, the pre-paid ruling has solidified China's position, rather than weakening it, because it revealed the weakness of the so-called anti-China camp.

It revealed how PH is lonely in its extremist anti-China views.

It revealed how all other claimants in SCS used the PH as a sacrificial lamb and that in this SCS dispute everybody is against everybody.

It revealed the US won't be coming to the help of PH to "enforce" the pre-paid court rule any time soon. After Trump presidency, it is highly likely that, the US will rebuke PH for stirring the waters and endangering international sea trade.

More important, perhaps, the pre-paid verdict allowed China to speed up the development and security efforts and people think this is China "responding" to the court rule.

Well, in one way or another, the ruling has so far done nothing (absolutely nothing) in terms of China national interests and security.

 

[S10]

Regardless of what happened in the past. No one expects China to agree to the court's decision. No one. Not from the petitioners. Not from the court's judges. This is another point that you guys missed.

The PCA is not there to issue judgments so someone else would enforce it. The PCA's mission is to listen and issue its opinions based on laws, history, precedents, and arguments. It does not care if the petitioners obey its judgments or not, and enforcement is left to the governments.

What make the PCA's judgments valuable, whether a judgment is obeyed or ignored, is that in referencing a judgment, one side uses it to support its claim for while the other side uses it to criticize against, all sides tacitly acknowledge that there is an international opinion on how to maintain inter-state order and stability. No one sane expects China to agree to the court's judgment. No one needs even %1 of cynicism to know that China will publicly denounce the PCA.

But this is what will happen if China resorts to violence in objections to the PCA...

Since everyone, including your China, pretty much admitted that there must be some semblance of international order and stability, and China being a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a body whose existence is about order and stability, China will be publicly condemned and vilified when lives are lost at Chinese hands. China's allies, including Pakistan, will offer only mealy mouthed verbal support, nothing else.

Do you know the meaning of mealy mouthed ?

- avoiding the use of direct and plain language, as from timidity, excessive delicacy, or hypocrisy; inclined to mince words; insincere, devious, or compromising.

Pakistan will not be that 'brother' you guys been mindlessly repeating. China will be alone.

Then when an alliance of Asian powers, including Australia, enters the SCS in force to contain China and make sure the SCS remains the property of the world, China will be all alone. Putin might say something Putin-esque, but Russia will benefit with a free SCS, so Russia will stay out of the fray. Pakistan ? Meh. Nothing Pakistan can do, let alone will do.

China can ignore the PCA, but if China does not respond militarily to enforce Chinese claim to the entirety of the SCS, any public declaration of disregard for the PCA will be cast aside. No military response is essentially an obedience to the PCA. That is what the world will perceive. If China respond militarily but become contained by superior might, the world will see China as defeated, hence China ignoring the PCA is meaningless.

You see awfully convinced of a kangaroo verdict from a kangaroo tribunal. UK, Russia and Japan all ignored it previously. The sky didn't collapse for them, and it's not collapsing now. Why should China respond militarily? We'll keep doing what we're already doing in our 9 dash line.

 

[gambit]

You see awfully convinced of a kangaroo verdict from a kangaroo tribunal. UK, Russia and Japan all ignored it previously. The sky didn't collapse for them, and it's not collapsing now. Why should China respond militarily? We'll keep doing what we're already doing in our 9 dash line.

Because of China's claim to the entirety of the SCS. This is not about man-made islands which do not have as much legal protections as real islands do. China can build on those things until China is broke. But the entirety of the SCS is a whole different issue.

The PCA's decision is a signal to the region, and other countries on other parts of the world that needs freedom in the SCS, that they now do not have to worry about the legal aspect of who owns the SCS, which is NO ONE. If China chose to ignore that decision, the a military response is the only one adequate to enforce Chinese claim. Without that response, China essentially admitted that the PCA's decision is valid. You cannot deny validity and do nothing to support that refusal.

 

[AlyxMS]

Because of China's claim to the entirety of the SCS. This is not about man-made islands which do not have as much legal protections as real islands do. China can build on those things until China is broke. But the entirety of the SCS is a whole different issue.

The PCA's decision is a signal to the region, and other countries on other parts of the world that needs freedom in the SCS, that they now do not have to worry about the legal aspect of who owns the SCS, which is NO ONE. If China chose to ignore that decision, the a military response is the only one adequate to enforce Chinese claim. Without that response, China essentially admitted that the PCA's decision is valid. You cannot deny validity and do nothing to support that refusal.

So what you are saying is...

Errr... China didn't go crazy and send warships everywhere like US would,
So they essentially admitted that something they repeatedly said is invalid to be valid.

The nine dash line is NOT a territorial line.
Why would China have a military response if China is not invaded?
To protect "freedom of navigation"?

"Heard you wanted freedom, so I sent my warships near your waters."

 

[gambit]

"Heard you wanted freedom, so I sent my warships near your waters."

I heard OTHERS wanted freedom of navigation, so I sent my warships near your waters to make sure that freedom is available.

China can send the PLAN to the Gulf of Mexico to ensure the Mexicans and the Cubans have freedom of navigation in the Gulf. Does not matter if we never claimed the Gulf with any dashy-dashy lines. China can prove herself to be a capable guardian of the seas by holding US at bay.

 

[TaiShang]

So what you are saying is...

Errr... China didn't go crazy and send warships everywhere like US would,
So they essentially admitted that something they repeatedly said is invalid to be valid.

The nine dash line is NOT a territorial line.
Why would China have a military response if China is not invaded?
To protect "freedom of navigation"?

"Heard you wanted freedom, so I sent my warships near your waters."

China's response is doing what it has already been doing: Build up.

 

[xunzi]

Because of China's claim to the entirety of the SCS. This is not about man-made islands which do not have as much legal protections as real islands do. China can build on those things until China is broke. But the entirety of the SCS is a whole different issue.

The PCA's decision is a signal to the region, and other countries on other parts of the world that needs freedom in the SCS, that they now do not have to worry about the legal aspect of who owns the SCS, which is NO ONE. If China chose to ignore that decision, the a military response is the only one adequate to enforce Chinese claim. Without that response, China essentially admitted that the PCA's decision is valid. You cannot deny validity and do nothing to support that refusal.

Stop being delusional. We never claim 9-dash as our territorial water. If we do, there would be no ship passing that water without our permission. So let talk about fact on the ground! There had never been a boat stop trespassing in SCS and it will remain to be open. No country, including the USA, Philippines, Vietnam can prevent our ship and boat from operating in SCS or anywhere with a global common water. Are we clear on this?

 

[gambit]

Stop being delusional. We never claim 9-dash as our territorial water.

If you never did, there would not be this mess, would it ?

If we do, there would be no ship passing that water without our permission.

We pretty much made it clear that your permission will NEVER be requested.

So let talk about fact on the ground!

Actually, it is the sea.

There had never been a boat stop trespassing in SCS and it will remain to be open.

Trespassing ? To trespass, there must first be private property. The SCS was never China's property to start, so you cannot use the word to describe any action by anyone, including China.

No country, including the USA, Philippines, Vietnam can prevent our ship and boat from operating in SCS or anywhere with a global common water. Are we clear on this?

Yes, we are clear. The UN is clear. That applies to non-Chinese vessels as well. Are YOU clear on this ?

 

[xunzi]

If you never did, there would not be this mess, would it ?

It all started when your ally impose unilateral arrest of our fisherman in traditional water ground for all parties involved. Fact!

We pretty much made it clear that your permission will NEVER be requested.

Nobody needs permission to trespass in international law. We certainly will not need permission if we operate in international water regardless of which region of water we're at.

Actually, it is the sea.

Let us be clear on what we need to talk about.

Trespassing ? To trespass, there must first be private property. The SCS was never China's property to start, so you cannot use the word to describe any action by anyone, including China.

Trespassing is used when one operated inside another country territorial water. SCS is consider our traditional water ground but we made no used of it as our territorial water, therefore the word can be applied upon when it is needed. From our view, anybody operated inside our 12nm of accept territory by international law then it is a trespassing.

Yes, we are clear. The UN is clear. That applies to non-Chinese vessels as well. Are YOU clear on this ?

Why are you keep repeating the same old dance? Let us be clear on what we are doing here.

The SCS is free for all, not just you and your allies to operate. The respect for sovereign water should applied despite the Freedom of Navigation principle is used.