China’s Anti-Carrier Ballistic Missile Now Opposite Taiwan | Bloomberg

[IndianArmy]

still we need proper agreement or mechanism... to not provoke each other...

Mechanisms have ruled us for decades but the result is in front of you. Blind faith is not my solution, but give them a chance to know about us and our intentions in this region, I am sure the Chinese like any other nation prefers a healthy relations with its neighbor and our intentions are same as theirs.

Protecting their country is their priority and protecting this land is ours. make all disputed areas a bilateral economic zones and joint patrolling areas. It would not only improve the relations but also stabilize the economy.

I hope well for India. China and India are the two Giants in Asia.

Indeed, and to remain so, we must have a good relation. The best way is by taking up joint patrolling along the borders, common trade routs etc

 

[danger007]

Mechanisms have ruled us for decades but the result is in front of you. Blind faith is not my solution, but give them a chance to know about us and our intentions in this region, I am sure the Chinese like any other nation prefers a healthy relations with its neighbor and our intentions are same as theirs.

Protecting their country is their priority and protecting this land is ours. make all disputed areas a bilateral economic zones and joint patrolling areas. It would not only improve the relations but also stabilize the economy.



Indeed, and to remain so, we must have a good relation. The best way is by taking up joint patrolling along the borders, common trade routs etc

I don't like bloodshed of any one... am completely against it... I want Asia like another EU even though it is hard... but need proper agreement not just word which can turned down....

 

[IndianArmy]

I don't like bloodshed of any one... am completely against it... I want Asia like another EU even though it is hard... but need proper agreement not just word which can turned down....

Indeed. I too wished Asia to be another EU. I am quite sure we can make it one if we the few who are spewing hatred online forums could write something good about those whom we hated for decades.

Like my signature says, we can be the difference.

 

[danger007]

Indeed. I too wished Asia to be another EU. I am quite sure we can make it one if we the few who are spewing hatred online forums could write something good about those whom we hated for decades.

Like my signature says, we can be the difference.

Unless china resolves with India in boarders.... we can't stand up with them blindly... i prefer a proper agreement between each other... allowing each other to expand their wings... instead of trying to knock down each other....

 

[sincity]

Since your the army captain, you should know high value target like the aircraft carrier that cost up to 10 billions dollars to construct and operate with hundred of aircraft on the carrier and many thousands of soldier live on board, any threat of an aircraft being sink by any mean possible would be taken seriously by all the military planner, you don't dismiss your enemy capacity to take down the main carrier group without confirming the credible threat in other to come up with an effective countermeasure to the threat itself. Chinese military only allow certain declassify information to be known by the public and most of the classify information to be hidden for security reason. If you want to know the true capacity of Chinese military you need to be an CIA spy that infiltrate into Chinese military itself or one of the Chinese commander sell the classify information to you.

 

[jhungary]

how dare you to say DF-21 is just for show off.... chinese are not stupids, but Americans.... because they are sending 60% of naval strength and more CBG into Asia-Pacific region.... don't know who will save USN.... .........from CCp.....

but i had a doubt since my fellow chinese members are talking to bring down, an AC with their Dognfeng-21.... then why they are going for Aircraft carriers?

Well, I think if a DF-21 can take down any aircraft, then this will be the end with our navy, why bother launching aircraft if they can lock in a supersonic target 2000 mile away. We should just decom all our carrier and surrender to the Chinese then

Next they will talk about EMP and laser tech that can strike us before we can even say "ahh..."

I am sure it is not India specific missile. We should take a united stand with china, USN has been pretty aggressive. This missile will however make the USN think twice before taking an action.

Lets hope that in atleast the next elections, our relations with neighboring countries improve and take a united stand on the security of Asia.

There can never be a working relation between China and India, both sit on the same continent, both are comparable in size. You cannot have 2 big brothers in one region. Do bear in mind, man are selfish, it's everyman for him/her self. When it come down to their own respective interest, you will go around and fight each other, especially when both country stand next to one and other.

Look at how China act on your land in AP and Ladakh, and try to find some solace in it

I don't like bloodshed of any one... am completely against it... I want Asia like another EU even though it is hard... but need proper agreement not just word which can turned down....

There will not be a EU in Asia, to have an organisation like EU to work, no one country can be too big for other put together. Then you will have a dominion type organisation, where either India or China call the shot on "EU of Asia"

Not that people cannot co-exist but people want to swindle other, that's human nature. When you are powerful enough to push over all the rest, why would you need a co-operation with the other country, when you can just push them to your favor??

Since your the army captain, you should know high value target like the aircraft carrier that cost up to 10 billions dollars to construct and operate with hundred of aircraft on the carrier and many thousands of soldier live on board, any threat of an aircraft being sink by any mean possible would be taken seriously by all the military planner, you don't dismiss your enemy capacity to take down the main carrier group without confirming the credible threat in other to come up with an effective countermeasure to the threat itself. Chinese military only allow certain declassify information to be known by the public and most of the classify information to be hidden for security reason. If you want to know the true capacity of Chinese military you need to be an CIA spy that infiltrate into Chinese military itself or one of the Chinese commander sell the classify information to you.

I assume this is addressed to me.

If you look at my post carefully, I DID NOT DISMISS THE CAPABILITY all the assumption I make on my post are quote on the condition that DF-21 WORK THE WAY THEY SHOULD, just as the Chinese member said they would. But the end result will be the same. DF-21 is too short ranged to challenge our Carrier.

See, there is a threshold for missile to strike their target, if you are too far from your target, your missile took a longer TTL on target, with longer exposure time, to either strike it down or to evade and move out of their range.

If you put the missile closer to the target, you lose your tactical advantage on using said missile as when you pull your range closer, there are more resource allow you to strike the target with better accuracy than your missile.

The fact remain the same, when we can launch a group of F-18 Hornet from our carrier 1800 nmi away, launch Tanker to refuel them, they can literally reach out to the missile before the missile can reach our carrier. They either risk putting their missile on the coast and let us destroy them with minimum Ground/Air Defence asset. Or you pull the missile further inland so you enjoy better air/ground defence coverage, but you lose range on your missile.

If you are born in the 70s or 80s, you will remember how US think SCUD is a thread to our asset in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Do you remember how do we tackle those SCUD the Iraq have that claim they can set our base in middle East in inferno? We did have war with Iraq and they did fire their SCUD, is our bases in SA and Yemen in inferno??

I used to work on Military Intelligence, I think either you over estimate the real situation, or you don't know how info and intel are gathered. It does not matter on any platform in the world. You use the same method to destroy them.

 

[sincity]

IDK what kind of missiles Irag fired at Israel but they did fire many missiles into Israel with minimum success because Irag lack the satellites system to guide their missiles to target, they just fired some missiles at certain area and hoped to hit some target at the populous area and not in the open space. I'm not an expert on missile technology or military weapons but I'm sure within the next 10 yrs China air force and naval force will present a serious challenge to the US naval force operate in the region. China not like Irag relied on US weapons to fight Iran, Irag outdated air force and no naval force were in no comparison with the US military at all, Irag pose no risk to the US navy or air force when the 1st gulf war started. US led coalition fought Irag out in the desert where their army were sitting duck to the US led coalition airstrike and take out many of their position. As of now US won't fight a war with China but you can't say next 10 years China won't match US military in the SCS, if China economy continue to grow and allow their military to continue to modernization then the outcome of a naval warfare in SCS still be determine.

 

[jhungary]

IDK what kind of missiles Irag fired at Israel but they did fire many missiles into Israel with minimum success because Irag lack the satellites system to guide their missiles to target, they just fired some missiles at certain area and hoped to hit some target at the populous area and not in the open space. I'm not an expert on missile technology or military weapons but I'm sure within the next 10 yrs China air force and naval force will present a serious challenge to the US naval force operate in the region. China not like Irag relied on US weapons to fight Iran, Irag outdated air force and no naval force were in no comparison with the US military at all, Irag pose no risk to the US navy or air force when the 1st gulf war started. US led coalition fought Irag out in the desert where their army were sitting duck to the US led coalition airstrike and take out many of their position. As of now US won't fight a war with China but you can't say next 10 years China won't match US military in the SCS, if China economy continue to grow and allow their military to continue to modernization then the outcome of a naval warfare in SCS still be determine.

Although the Satellite technology is not total mature in 1991 when Iraq used them in Israel and SA. Their correspondent target is not also require as accurate as target today. They need to hit the "Hard Target" like army barrack and infrastructure which do not even require the pin-point accuracy today to operate.

Yet 42 SCUD was fire with less than 30 fatality. And most SCUD either overshoot or fall short on target. While a big chuck of those missile were destroyed by Air Strike or Special Ops

Also, I can say for sure China cannot challenge the USA in the next 10 years, not even 20 years. As this is physically impossible.

Equipment cannot be build out of thin air. And economy cannot growth forever, what come up must come don, this is the basic ideology and principle of Economy. Actually, if you look at the GDP in China, they have started their downfall about 2 to 3 years ago sitting on 11.9 on 2010 to 7.8 this year

While you cannot expect China to step on the same footing forever, you also cannot expect any growth to their economy will directly transfer to Military Sector.

China, unlike United States, do not need a large Military to maintain simply because there are not more overseas Chinese Interest anywhere. And there are not many Chinese Defence Partner that depend on China for their defence, beside Pakistan.

Problem is, of course China can build 10 or 11 Aircraft carrier ground, they have the money for it, but will they ever need it? Have them run north and south over the Coast of China? On the other hand the same money they used to build 10 to 11 Aircraft Carrier is better devoted to some other domestic program as China, as a whole, is not as developed like the US. Not to mention you cannot magically make 10-11 Aircraft carrier, 1000-2000 combat aircraft appear out of nowhere, you need to build them, and it take time for the Chinese to build them. Even for a country as big as US and with a lot of ship building experience, each carrier take 4 years to build, it will take China 40 years to finish 10 carrier.

Also don't forget while Chinese Growth, US is not just standing there and let them catch up.

 

[danger007]

Well, I think if a DF-21 can take down any aircraft, then this will be the end with our navy, why bother launching aircraft if they can lock in a supersonic target 2000 mile away. We should just decom all our carrier and surrender to the Chinese then

Next they will talk about EMP and laser tech that can strike us before we can even say "ahh..."



There can never be a working relation between China and India, both sit on the same continent, both are comparable in size. You cannot have 2 big brothers in one region. Do bear in mind, man are selfish, it's everyman for him/her self. When it come down to their own respective interest, you will go around and fight each other, especially when both country stand next to one and other.

Look at how China act on your land in AP and Ladakh, and try to find some solace in it



There will not be a EU in Asia, to have an organisation like EU to work, no one country can be too big for other put together. Then you will have a dominion type organisation, where either India or China call the shot on "EU of Asia"

Not that people cannot co-exist but people want to swindle other, that's human nature. When you are powerful enough to push over all the rest, why would you need a co-operation with the other country, when you can just push them to your favor??



I assume this is addressed to me.

If you look at my post carefully, I DID NOT DISMISS THE CAPABILITY all the assumption I make on my post are quote on the condition that DF-21 WORK THE WAY THEY SHOULD, just as the Chinese member said they would. But the end result will be the same. DF-21 is too short ranged to challenge our Carrier.

See, there is a threshold for missile to strike their target, if you are too far from your target, your missile took a longer TTL on target, with longer exposure time, to either strike it down or to evade and move out of their range.

If you put the missile closer to the target, you lose your tactical advantage on using said missile as when you pull your range closer, there are more resource allow you to strike the target with better accuracy than your missile.

The fact remain the same, when we can launch a group of F-18 Hornet from our carrier 1800 nmi away, launch Tanker to refuel them, they can literally reach out to the missile before the missile can reach our carrier. They either risk putting their missile on the coast and let us destroy them with minimum Ground/Air Defence asset. Or you pull the missile further inland so you enjoy better air/ground defence coverage, but you lose range on your missile.

If you are born in the 70s or 80s, you will remember how US think SCUD is a thread to our asset in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Do you remember how do we tackle those SCUD the Iraq have that claim they can set our base in middle East in inferno? We did have war with Iraq and they did fire their SCUD, is our bases in SA and Yemen in inferno??

I used to work on Military Intelligence, I think either you over estimate the real situation, or you don't know how info and intel are gathered. It does not matter on any platform in the world. You use the same method to destroy them.

actually my plan is, USN should surrender all of it's assets to china... with self destruction mode....
it is the only way to control the chinese naval power.....
That is why i said, it is hard.... EU model is not possible in 21st century.... Until unless the problems like Indo-china, japan-china-korea, Korean peninsula, Indo-pakistan, Afghan etc... exists, EU model is highly unlikely....

 

[gambit]

And?




I'm doing quit the same as you did so far.

Henri K.

You have done NOTHING as I have done so far. Not even 1/10th close.

Let us look at one of your source...

In the abstract: The proportional navigation was adopted as the terminal guidance law.

What exactly are these: 'proportional navigation' and 'terminal guidance law'?

Most people when they see the word 'law' they think of things associated with criminality such as murder and jaywalking or of civil law like buying a house or a car. But what is this 'terminal guidance law'?

I see nothing -- NOTHING -- in your post that you explained to the readers what is this 'terminal guidance law'.

I see nothing -- NOTHING -- remotely close to an example, close to home and person, that a reader can say to himself: 'Ah...Now I get it.'

So who would take you seriously as a 'source' for things technical and relating to the subject under discussion? The Chinese members here.

Intelligent readers would not.

Now you will learn something from me...

If I have a meter long stick, that meter long stick is a law. A physical law. I cannot reach more than one meter. Likewise, your arm's length is a law. You cannot reach beyond your arm's length. If your car's steering wheel have 2.5 turns lock-to-lock, that is a law created by the auto maker. If your care have four tires/wheels, that is a law created by the auto maker. If the iPhone have a battery of 1440 mAh (milliamp hour), that is a law created by Apple applicable to the iPhone and to a specific iteration. Not applicable to Motorola or Samsung or HTC.

Contract law says you pay X/month for your mortgage. If you violate that law by not paying, you will pay more in some ways. On the other hand, if you pay X+/month, you are also violating the law but in this case nothing will happen to you. If you leap off a building, you will fall. Gravity is a law of nature that cannot be defied. Believe it or not, flying is not disobeying the law of gravity. It is countering the law of gravity with a more powerful force.

In other words, a law is a set of rules that either cannot be violated or cannot be violated at all.

So what exactly is this navigation law as in 'proportional navigation'?

In order to understand, you must first understand the concept of 'navigation' in the first place.

Verb

Plan and direct the route or course of a ship, aircraft, or other form of transportation, esp. by using instruments or maps.

Travel on a desired course after planning a route: "he taught them how to navigate across the oceans".

Navigation is not steerage.

Navigation is conceptual. Steerage is physical.

Navigation is about looking (Sensor) ahead when entering a roundabout, watching (Sensor) for other cars already in the roundabout and seeking to enter the roundabout and how to avoid colliding with them.

Steerage is about the mechanical contraptions that will allow you to avoid those other cars.

Sensor + Navigation = Guidance => Steerage

Here is the proper definition of 'guidance'...

Noun

Advice or information aimed at resolving a problem or difficulty, esp. as given by someone in authority.

The directing of the motion or position of something, esp. a missile.

Notice the highlighted. Advice, data, or instructions are conceptual.

We take a 'sensor', a method that is aware of the external environment and provide feedback, we coupled the information to a planning committee (navigation), then we transmit the advice to a control method that is capable of reorienting the body (steerage).

Sensor have its own laws. Your eyes operate in the visual spectrum and that is an inviolable law. Navigation have its own laws, partially created by Sensor inputs, partially created by physical construction, such as a resistor with a maximum ohm rating, for example. Steerage have its own laws such as one meter length push-pull rod, or aerodynamic deflectors, or gas reaction thrusters.

So what happens when we put them all together? We have something like this that is human readable...

Airbus Flight Control Laws

Everything I said is applicable to the DF-21D. The word 'applicable' does not mean the DF-21D have those things, but only if the DF-21D have the necessary hardware in order to exploit flight control laws.

So:

- IF the DF-21D have reaction gas thrusters or aerodynamic vanes, then it does have steerage.

- IF the DF-21D have a sensor then logically it must have navigation.

All together, the DF-21D have 'guidance'. But only IF the DF-21D have those things I presented.

You provided not even 1/10th the explanation of the foundational principles in the abstract of YOUR source. How pathetic is it for your credibility that your debating opponent have a superior understanding of your source than you do?

I do not expect the readers to understand the complexity of navigation and flight control laws, but I have faith that intelligent readers will take what I explained, do their own research, and come to the conclusion that you and your Chinese friends are clueless about the subject they are blabbering about.

 

[sincity]

Gambit try to rather the real information relate to the DF21 missiles, he won't find the DF21 missiles classify information on the internet. He need to get with the hacker and hack into Chinese military computer in other for him to find out all the information he need. This is an open source forum, declassify information everyone can obtain through a click of the mouse. A well keep secret and classify information need to obtain through spy network or cyber attack.

 

[gambit]

Gambit try to rather the real information relate to the DF21 missiles, he won't find the DF21 missiles classify information on the internet. He need to get with the hacker and hack into Chinese military computer in other for him to find out all the information he need. This is an open source forum, declassify information everyone can obtain through a click of the mouse. A well keep secret and classify information need to obtain through spy network or cyber attack.

I can see that what I explained went whoooooosh over your head. What I explained was about certain foundational principles that MAY exists on the DF-21D. Or may not.

 

[huzihaidao12]

DF21D is already a fact ,simple,over.

 

[gambit]

DF21D is already a fact ,simple,over.

And how does this declaration proved there were open water testing?

 

[huzihaidao12]

And how does this declaration proved there were open water testing?

I do not see it, but how to say? GAMIT, you are an American, you do not know some of the rules in your country?From the reaction of the U.S. government (military),it is a fact that it is so simple.