China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35 purchase

[seven7seven]

Not sure why China would need this fighter jet. The current jets they already have and are inducting soon are more than adequate before they eventually introduce their 5th Gen fighters into service. Sounds like russia are trying to drum up hype and interest in their planes. China used to be the lifeblood for Russian arms exports but they know those days have come to an end. China, in my opinion have approached near parity in most fields and have surpassed in some. Russia knows it is pointless holding out on their latest technology to China because they already nearly have the capability to produce it on their own. This Su-35 sales pitch sounds like a last-gasp attempt to sell to China a fighter jet that may have marginal advantages over their own current inventory. I'm pretty sure the Chinese will pass on this as the reason they have been so determined to build all their own combat aircraft is that they were annoyed with the poor after-sales service of the Russians in both maintenance assistance and availability of replacement parts. Russia are mostly courting Asian nations as buyers for their weapons, as they are relatively unaffected by the global downturn, and China certainly have as much free cash to splash as anybody, it's just that they don't have the need for Russian military hardware anymore, and the related headaches that come with buying them. China's final few orders for engines to their J10A fighter will likely be the last significant purchase the Chinese make from Russia.

 

[brahmin]

If the Russians are unwilling to sell China Mig-29Ks due to China's history of IP infringement why would they sell them Su-35s?

That doesnt mean they shouldnt sell any other aircrafts right ? May be Russians dont like China to have a carrier fleet challenging them . Even Russians said they will sell Su35 only when ordered in large numbers .

 

[Abingdonboy]

That doesnt mean they shouldnt sell any other aircrafts right ? May be Russians dont like China to have a carrier fleet challenging them . Even Russians said they will sell Su35 only when ordered in large numbers .

No the reasons were clear- past IP infringment by Chinese wrt SU-33/30 sold to China by them. And the the sale of SU-35 is only possible if China offsets the loss in revenue the Russians will feel because of the IP theft of the Chinese by larger orders ie 200+ but the Chinese are not likely to go for large orders because all they want to do is reverse engineer the machine so only a handful of fighters are required for this. As such you have conflicting interests and an impasse.

 

[sexy gun]

As usual, Russians will snub chinese with a big NO

 

[brahmin]

No the reasons were clear- past IP infringment by Chinese wrt SU-33/30 sold to China by them. And the the sale of SU-35 is only possible if China offsets the loss in revenue the Russians will feel because of the IP theft of the Chinese by larger orders ie 200+ but the Chinese are not likely to go for large orders because all they want to do is reverse engineer the machine so only a handful of fighters are required for this. As such you have conflicting interests and an impasse.

I dont think Russia will ask compensation for lost orders . They are expecting guarantee from China that they will buy decent number of aircrafts and will not reverse engineer them . Else the deal would not be signed .

 

[Gessler]

Main differences of SU-30SM(Super Sukhoi) comared to SU-35
2 pilots
Bigger RCS
Less powerful engines
No supercruise
Worse t/w ratio
No L-band wing radars

Su-30SM is the same as present-day MKI, but without any western avionics.

Super Sukhoi will be better than Su-35S/BM in every possible way. it has everything su-35 has
and more including 360-degree IRST package.

if you want to know the detailed equipment of super sukhoi, read this article -
TRISHUL: Super Su-30MKI: From Air Dominance To Air Supremacy

 

[Abingdonboy]

I dont think Russia will ask compensation for lost orders . They are expecting guarantee from China that they will buy decent number of aircrafts and will not reverse engineer them . Else the deal would not be signed .

Off course the Chinese won't offer nor will Russia aske for compensation. What I was trying to say was the deal will only happen if the Chinese buy a substantial number of SU-35s to offset any potential loss in sales revenue for Russia if/when China reverse engineers it and tries to sell it off as their own "indigenous" product. The Russians must have calculated the potential market for SU-35s around the world and whilst it is an excellant plane the internartional market doesn't look great for them so say they have calculated a number- x, as the total they can hope to sell to other nations. They would want China to buy x+whatever to satisfy their own concerns. Other wise why should Russia hurt itself? And the idea of the Russians accepting a "guarenttee" from China, that simply isn't good enough. The Chinese are very shady when it comes to this stuff-remember their "new" ACC was meant to become a floating casino! The Russians will only respond to concrete orders.

 

[zzzz]

Su-30SM is the same as present-day MKI, but without any western avionics.

Super Sukhoi will be better than Su-35S/BM in every possible way. it has everything su-35 has
and more including 360-degree IRST package.

if you want to know the detailed equipment of super sukhoi, read this article -
TRISHUL: Super Su-30MKI: From Air Dominance To Air Supremacy

Su-30SM is not the same as SU-30MKI, it has a different airframe without canards with reduced RCS, radar, cockpit and most of avionics from SU-35. Most of its avionics will be installed on Indian Super Sukhoi. If Indian version will also get L-band radars and engines of SU-35 class then it will be comparable to SU-35, but again because of one pilot configuration SU-35 will still have lower RCS and bigger load.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Su-30SM is not the same as SU-30MKI, it has a different airframe without canards with reduced RCS, radar, cockpit and most of avionics from SU-35. Most of its avionics will be installed on Indian Super Sukhoi. If Indian version will also get L-band radars and engines of SU-35 class then it will be comparable to SU-35, but again because of one pilot configuration SU-35 will still have lower RCS and bigger load.

But the SUPER Sukhoi will have better avionics and a better weapons suite to the SU-35/30SM. And the twin cockpit offers many advantages over a single cockpit.

 

[arp2041]

But the SUPER Sukhoi will have better avionics and a better weapons suite to the SU-35/30SM. And the twin cockpit offers many advantages over a single cockpit.

But i thought that Super Sukhois are just the upgraded version of su-30s to bring them to su-35 standards ??

 

[zzzz]

But the SUPER Sukhoi will have better avionics and a better weapons suite to the SU-35/30SM. And the twin cockpit offers many advantages over a single cockpit.

As i said already if you want to claim that it will have anything better then you should provide comparison of the technical specifications in question.
As for twin cockpit yes it offers advantage in some situations like ground strikes for example.

 

[Abingdonboy]

But i thought that Super Sukhois are just the upgraded version of su-30s to bring them to su-35 standards ??

No it is far more than that.

As i said already if you want to claim that it will have anything better then you should provide comprasion of the technical specifications in question.
As for twin cockpit yes it offers advantage in some situations like ground strikes for example.

Well considering that the IAF wants to get avionics and sensors from the West as well as the many of the weapons that will form the Super Sukhoi's weapons suite the only logical conclusion is that the Western equipment is superior and by extension the SUPER SUKHOI is better equipped to the Made in Russia 30SM/35. Or is the the IAF aimlessly wasting its money?In the same way the MKI was superior to the MKK/MK/M/MK2 the SUPER UPG will be better than the bog-standard Russian version.

 

[zzzz]

Well considering that the IAF wants to get avionics and sensors from the West as well as the many of the weapons that will form the Super Sukhoi's weapons suite the only logical conclusion is that the Western equipment is superior and by extension the SUPER SUKHOI is better equipped to the Made in Russia 30SM/35. Or is the the IAF aimlessly wasting its money?In the same way the MKI was superior to the MKK/MK/M/MK2 the SUPER UPG will be better than the bog-standard Russian version.

If IAF wants some western systems to be installed that is just IAF's business. There could be hundreds of reasons why they want it. They just have their own deals with different countries. How does that mean that some system is better or worse? Since when IAF's wishes became world standard of weapon systems ranking?

 

[Abingdonboy]

If IAF wants some western systems to be installed that is just IAF's business. There could be hundreds of reasons why they want it. They just have their own deals with different countries. How does that mean that some system is better or worse? Since when IAF's wishes became world standard of weapon systems ranking?

The fact is the IAF could have accpeted the basic SU-30MK that was offered but they asked for more from Russia in the form of TVC and canards and also looked to fill in certain gaps they had seen with Western tech. Now why would the IAF remove Russian equipment and replace it with more expensive but (by your logic) lass/equally capable Western tech? Just for a laugh? No it clearly means they got the best from all sides, the Russians made a great a/c and the Indians made it even better by going to the West who are experts in certain areas and got the best tech and fitted it on to the MKI to make a beast of a machine. This is the only logical conclusion. This is an established fact, or so I thought.

 

[janon]

If IAF wants some western systems to be installed that is just IAF's business. There could be hundreds of reasons why they want it. They just have their own deals with different countries. How does that mean that some system is better or worse? Since when IAF's wishes became world standard of weapon systems ranking?

Hundreds of reasons like what? Surely not cost? If not for better quality, why else would they buy Israeli and French avionics instead of the ones Russia had already integrated?

IAF's wishes are the standard of ranking for the equipments they procure and operate after careful selection. If they decided not to go with a particular system and instead went for a different one at some financial and time costs, then that is reason enough to believe that the other equipment was worth it. We trust their professionalism.