China ranks first worldwide in PV power capacity

[Jlaw]

They got "harrased" after found guilty of price dumping. The reason China boosted the capacity at home was because it was saving the PV manufacturers. Iirc from the time, somewhere between 70-90% of PV manufacturers went bankrupt as a result of relying on high subsidized prices in Europe and consequential over capacity in production as they thought demand will grow exponentially. When that dried up, Chinese government stepped in and saved "core" of the business while letting many fall. This "core" is now being fed at the troughs of the state, like it was fed in Europe.

How does one know if it's price dumping? did it ever get to WTO for arbitration? If one can manufacture more efficiently and cheaper , than sell it cheaper than the rest that's called competitive advantage

 

[Economic superpower]

No no, you were implying the harrasment happened out of the blue with no apparent reason. Which is what i corrected as there is documemted evidence as to why "harrasment" happened.

I agree, Chinese PV industry doesn't need to rely on European markets. It downsized 70-90%. That's why it doesn't need to rely on EU lol and what's left of it is being kept alive by government orders.

Europe wanted to eliminate the Chinese solar companies because they wanted to dominate the solar industry with European companies.

Chinese companies now don't need European market to survive because they have the domestic market. Having a large domestic market gives leverage by being able to grow in size and use the overseas market as a bonus. Chinese smartphone companies and appliance companies are some of the largest in the world solely because of the domestic Chinese market. Now they are gradually expanding into foreign markets. They grow in China and accumulate the resources and expand into foreign markets later on. They don't need to rely on foreign markets for their very survival because they can be harassed and be subject to all kinds of trade barriers in foreign markets.

Btw where is your proof of 70-90% downsize? Consolidation of an industry is important where you have a few large companies instead of many smaller companies. It shows maturity of an industry.

Most industries in the world are kept alive by government orders. Providing energy to the people is a role for the government especially clean energy which solves the air pollution problem and increases energy security for China.

Technology security in the energy sector is crucial for national security. This is why China is supporting domestic companies in solar panels, wind turbines, dams, nuclear reactors, oil and gas drilling equipment, UHV transmission lines, etc.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

They got "harrased" after found guilty of price dumping. The reason China boosted the capacity at home was because it was saving the PV manufacturers. Iirc from the time, somewhere between 70-90% of PV manufacturers went bankrupt as a result of relying on high subsidized prices in Europe and consequential over capacity in production as they thought demand will grow exponentially. When that dried up, Chinese government stepped in and saved "core" of the business while letting many fall. This "core" is now being fed at the troughs of the state, like it was fed in Europe.

yep, and now Germany is building up coal plants because they discovered that the remaining European solar manufacturers are competitive neither in technology nor price with Chinese and American (the only 2 other major players) panels.

 

[Dungeness]

China ranks first worldwide in PV power capacity
Xinhua, January 21, 2016

Photo taken on July 28, 2015 shows the first project of photovoltaic power system generating electricity in Zhonglitenghui photovoltaic power station in Shizuishan City of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region. [Xinhua]


China overtook Germany in 2015 to become the world's number one in terms of photovoltaic (PV) power capacity, official data showed on Thursday.

China added 15 gigawatts of PV power capacity last year, a 40 percent rise year on year, bringing the total capacity to 43 gigawatts, according to China Photovoltaic Industry Association (CPIA).

Many PV companies began to turn a profit last year thanks to the government's positive stance on green and innovative energy production and investment, said CPIA Secretary General Wang Bohua.

Wang said the areas of technology research and development, and company financing needed more attention, and 2016 will see policies related to PV power grid connection and subsidies.

By the end of 2020, China aims to increase non-fossil energy to 15 percent of total primary energy consumption, and sharply enhance the ratio of renewable energy in production, according to the National Energy Administration (NEA).

NEA predicts that China's PV power capacity will hit 150 gigawatts by 2020.

It would be nice if a solar farm can share the land with a wind farm.

 

[TaiShang]

Looks like, Europe's share in PV industry is getting smaller.

 

[Monkey King]

It is true that the Chinese government gives many subsidiaries to the PV industry in order to promote and encourage the development of this green energy. However, as far as I know, both Europe and US governments also give subsidiaries to their green energy industries, including wind power and solar power. Since both wind power and solar power cannot compete with fossil fuels economically at present stage, it is a wise idea to give some subsidiaries to these green industries to promote their development. Otherwise, the goals of reduce CO2 emission and air pollution is difficult to achieve. So it is not appropriate to criticize that Chinese companies are price-dumping of solar cells. Every country is price-dumping of solar cells.

The main reason of much lower price of PV manufactured in China is that Chinese workers has lower wages than workers in developed countries. But the major problem is that most profits of PV industry goes to the developed countries such as Germany and US. Because most of the advanced equipments (CVD, PECVD, PVD) of fabricating solar cells in China are imported from Germany or US. These kinds of high-tech equipments makes the most of profits in PV.

 

[antonius123]

Well, that is good news for China.

The question is: has china's solar panel reached international standard in term of quality and technology?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Well, that is good news for China.

The question is: has china's solar panel reached international standard in term of quality and technology?

China's solar panels are setting the standard. What do you mean of reaching the standard when the Chinese companies set it by default due to market share?

It is true that the Chinese government gives many subsidiaries to the PV industry in order to promote and encourage the development of this green energy. However, as far as I know, both Europe and US governments also give subsidiaries to their green energy industries, including wind power and solar power. Since both wind power and solar power cannot compete with fossil fuels economically at present stage, it is a wise idea to give some subsidiaries to these green industries to promote their development. Otherwise, the goals of reduce CO2 emission and air pollution is difficult to achieve. So it is not appropriate to criticize that Chinese companies are price-dumping of solar cells. Every country is price-dumping of solar cells.

The main reason of much lower price of PV manufactured in China is that Chinese workers has lower wages than workers in developed countries. But the major problem is that most profits of PV industry goes to the developed countries such as Germany and US. Because most of the advanced equipments (CVD, PECVD, PVD) of fabricating solar cells in China are imported from Germany or US. These kinds of high-tech equipments makes the most of profits in PV.

From what I know, solar has the potential to compete with fossil while wind can never compete with fossil. It's simple:

Wind power derives from thermal heating by the sun and is used to turn a mechanical turbine. How can that possibly compete with fossil fuels turning a mechanical turbine? It can't. Photovoltaic can compete with fossil if the materials and processes used are good and cheap enough simply because it's a direct light to electricity or fuel conversion.

 

[Audio]

yep, and now Germany is building up coal plants because they discovered that the remaining European solar manufacturers are competitive neither in technology nor price with Chinese and American (the only 2 other major players) panels.

The reason for coal plants is entirely different. You are misrepresenting.

Europe wanted to eliminate the Chinese solar companies because they wanted to dominate the solar industry with European companies.

Chinese companies now don't need European market to survive because they have the domestic market. Having a large domestic market gives leverage by being able to grow in size and use the overseas market as a bonus. Chinese smartphone companies and appliance companies are some of the largest in the world solely because of the domestic Chinese market. Now they are gradually expanding into foreign markets. They grow in China and accumulate the resources and expand into foreign markets later on. They don't need to rely on foreign markets for their very survival because they can be harassed and be subject to all kinds of trade barriers in foreign markets.

Btw where is your proof of 70-90% downsize? Consolidation of an industry is important where you have a few large companies instead of many smaller companies. It shows maturity of an industry.

Most industries in the world are kept alive by government orders. Providing energy to the people is a role for the government especially clean energy which solves the air pollution problem and increases energy security for China.

Technology security in the energy sector is crucial for national security. This is why China is supporting domestic companies in solar panels, wind turbines, dams, nuclear reactors, oil and gas drilling equipment, UHV transmission lines, etc.

Europe put tariffs on Chinese manufacturers because they were dumping. This is a provable fact. Any mental gymnastics "wanted to dominate industry" is unsupported with evidence.

Majority of your post where you talk of how states nurture their companies is irelevant to this debate. Nurturing does not equate price dumping.

 

[antonius123]

China's solar panels are setting the standard. What do you mean of reaching the standard when the Chinese companies set it by default due to market share?

How come lower quality solar panel become standard that international producer with higher quality ones should chase ?

Hope it is not another unfair and bias claim due to nationalistic, I am tired dealing with it.

Defective Panels Threatening Profit at China Solar Farms: Energy - Bloomberg Business

From what I know, solar has the potential to compete with fossil while wind can never compete with fossil. It's simple:

Wind power derives from thermal heating by the sun and is used to turn a mechanical turbine. How can that possibly compete with fossil fuels turning a mechanical turbine? It can't. Photovoltaic can compete with fossil if the materials and processes used are good and cheap enough simply because it's a direct light to electricity or fuel conversion.

What do you mean by solar can compete with fossil?

How much is the electricity cost of fosil (in average)? and how much the electricity cost of solar so that you conclude they are head to head competing.

 

[DoTell]

How come lower quality solar panel become standard that international producer with higher quality ones should chase ?

Hope it is not another unfair and bias claim due to nationalistic, I am tired dealing with it.

Defective Panels Threatening Profit at China Solar Farms: Energy - Bloomberg Business







What do you mean by solar can compete with fossil?

How much is the electricity cost of fosil (in average)? and how much the electricity cost of solar so that you conclude they are head to head competing.

If it's low quality why don't they just say so? Why do they call it "dumping"? They can't let the market, the real consumers to decide, can they? Truth will always come out. While winners always find ways to win, losers look for excuses.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

How come lower quality solar panel become standard that international producer with higher quality ones should chase ?

Hope it is not another unfair and bias claim due to nationalistic, I am tired dealing with it.

Defective Panels Threatening Profit at China Solar Farms: Energy - Bloomberg Business

What do you mean by solar can compete with fossil?

How much is the electricity cost of fosil (in average)? and how much the electricity cost of solar so that you conclude they are head to head competing.

They can compete with fossil in niche environments such as Hawaii where transport of fossil fuels lead to extremely high prices. The cost will only decrease if you consider the following facts: 1. fossil is non-renewable 2. the price for solar depends only on materials and processes used, which are improving at all times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

Also, defective panels are part of the manufacturing process. I actually work in photovoltaics and semiconductor physics research. Just like there are defects in every single semiconductor device, the key parameter here is the yield per batch and the price per batch. What you are refering to here is not even the semiconductor component but problems with the GLASS, which is provided by outside suppliers who aren't even the device manufacturers. It'll be like blaming Intel for defective products made by their suppliers at Dow.

 

[Economic superpower]

The reason for coal plants is entirely different. You are misrepresenting.



Europe put tariffs on Chinese manufacturers because they were dumping. This is a provable fact. Any mental gymnastics "wanted to dominate industry" is unsupported with evidence.

Majority of your post where you talk of how states nurture their companies is irelevant to this debate. Nurturing does not equate price dumping.

LOL

Europe wanted to completely eliminate the Chinese solar power industry because Europe wanted their companies to dominate the solar industry. Europe saw that Chinese solar companies rely on the European market to survive because the domestic Chinese market is too small.

China saw this and expanded the domestic solar capacity in China which will not only help China's solar companies but help also help reduce air pollution. Chinese solar companies no longer need to rely on the European market to survive.

The efficient solar companies changed their strategy to succeed in the domestic Chinese market.

Europe's strategy to use its market size to kill off the solar industry in China backfired. Now Chinese solar companies will grow using the domestic market and expand overseas and compete with European solar companies in foreign markets.

China has done this with smartphones, home appliances, high-speed trains, construction equipment, etc. Nurture domestic brands using China's vast consumer market to survive and once they grow to a certain size and sophistication, they can expand into foreign markets to win market share and compete with foreign companies.

If Chinese brands depend on foreign markets for their very survival, that puts them at risk of trade protectionism in those markets which means the chances of Chinese brands emerging on the global scene are slim.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

It would be nice if a solar farm can share the land with a wind farm.

The real breakthrough will be when Solar farms are adapted to share land with Agricultural farms - using transparent/translucent panels on large scales!

But as a first step, all windows facing Sun need to be replaced with transparent solar panels. Using only roofs for solar panels is not enough anymore!

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source (updated) | ExtremeTech

 

[Dungeness]

The real breakthrough will be when Solar farms are adapted to share land with Agricultural farms - using transparent/translucent panels on large scales!

But as a first step, all windows facing Sun need to be replaced with transparent solar panels. Using only roofs for solar panels is not enough anymore!

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source (updated) | ExtremeTech

If the panels are transparent, it means they are not really "catching" solar energy so the efficient would be very low. I would say if the solar cell can be made to replace the composite roofing tiles that we see in the states, who needs the grid?