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@WishLivePak let me see if I understand your point. You are saying that Pakistan needs to gain its own strength rather than depending on other nations. What I don't understand is when a nation that is 7 times the people you have and 7 times the resources you have and that nation is trying to destabilize and fragment your country, how do you face that situation just by yourself from your own strength?

Consider Japan, one of the most developed countries of the world. But it has a population that is 1/10 th that of China. Now China is growing and slowly becoming more developed, GDP is rising steadily and military strength is also rising. If China wanted to behave like India, interfering in all neighbor nations, trying to destabilize them, then would Japan be able to do anything to prevent this interference, without US bases there and a mutual defense treaty with the US? Japan is already at its limits of development and when the China reaches even close to that stage of development, Japan would have no hope to counter that threat coming from China, unless Japan becomes a willing partner in some kind of economic union with China (essentially submitting to Chinese supremacy and loose some sovereignty) or bring in outside powers to balance the threat.

So how does Pakistan just gaining its own strength solve this power imbalance? And how is it even possible for Pakistan to develop and gain strength, when India is getting more powerful and will increasingly deploy more resources to destabilize Pakistan? Or do you have doubts that India does not do anything to destabilize its neighbors including Pakistan?
 
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@WishLivePak let me see if I understand your point. You are saying that Pakistan needs to gain its own strength rather than depending on other nations. What I don't understand is when a nation that is 7 times the people you have and 7 times the resources you have and that nation is trying to destabilize and fragment your country, how do you face that situation just by yourself from your own strength?

Consider Japan, one of the most developed countries of the world. But it has a population that is 1/10 th that of China. Now China is growing and slowly becoming more developed, GDP is rising steadily and military strength is also rising. If China wanted to behave like India, interfering in all neighbor nations, trying to destabilize them, then would Japan be able to do anything to prevent this interference, without US bases there and a mutual defense treaty with the US? Japan is already at its limits of development and when the China reaches even close to that stage of development, Japan would have no hope to counter that threat coming from China, unless Japan becomes a willing partner in some kind of economic union with China (essentially submitting to Chinese supremacy and loose some sovereignty) or bring in outside powers to balance the threat.

So how does Pakistan just gaining its own strength solve this power imbalance? And how is it even possible for Pakistan to develop and gain strength, when India is getting more powerful and will increasingly deploy more resources to destabilize Pakistan? Or do you have doubts that India does not do anything to destabilize its neighbors including Pakistan?
Sushma swaraj is in Dhaka. Are you sure you have time to be worrying about Pak
:flame::flame::flame:
 
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Except Aksai chin, China and India government can talk anything. Yes i ever said BeiJing might lose interest in South of Tibet and willing to solve Sino-Inida border dispute but only in South of Tibet areas.

Why not Aksai chin ?
1. The XinJiang-to-Tibet road cross through whole Aksai chin area, China won't abandon it, that strategic road will affect.Tibet.
2. Aksai chin is the door into South Asia, or the door from South Asia into China XinJiang. China won't lose the strategic channel.
You know what?Was the DBO has any connection with that road hundreds of miles away and why that incident happened?

You are just a low level expert.There is no such thing South Tibet and China will not give up its territory.
 
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You know what?Was the DBO has any connection with that road hundreds of miles away and why that incident happened?
You are just a low level expert.There is no such thing South Tibet and China will not give up its territory.
Nailed it.
 
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@WishLivePak let me see if I understand your point. You are saying that Pakistan needs to gain its own strength rather than depending on other nations. What I don't understand is when a nation that is 7 times the people you have and 7 times the resources you have and that nation is trying to destabilize and fragment your country, how do you face that situation just by yourself from your own strength?

Consider Japan, one of the most developed countries of the world. But it has a population that is 1/10 th that of China. Now China is growing and slowly becoming more developed, GDP is rising steadily and military strength is also rising. If China wanted to behave like India, interfering in all neighbor nations, trying to destabilize them, then would Japan be able to do anything to prevent this interference, without US bases there and a mutual defense treaty with the US? Japan is already at its limits of development and when the China reaches even close to that stage of development, Japan would have no hope to counter that threat coming from China, unless Japan becomes a willing partner in some kind of economic union with China (essentially submitting to Chinese supremacy and loose some sovereignty) or bring in outside powers to balance the threat.

So how does Pakistan just gaining its own strength solve this power imbalance? And how is it even possible for Pakistan to develop and gain strength, when India is getting more powerful and will increasingly deploy more resources to destabilize Pakistan? Or do you have doubts that India does not do anything to destabilize its neighbors including Pakistan?

Thanks for putting your words nicely. Easy to understand and no personal attacks.

Pakistan at this time of the day cannot be independent. It can also not progress without the help of foreign countries, like China for example. What I wish to see is a prosperous Pakistan. Now, Pakistan has a bright future, if it manages itself properly.

What I say about China-Pak relationship is that, China has vested interests. It helps Pakistan because Pakistan is able to give something back. There could be a time in the future when Pakistan is not at all important and China could not be able to help the same way as it'll help Pakistan today. There is no doubt that Chinese gov't loves Pakistan and that Pakistan loves China, but we're not sure what future holds for us.

For that matter, we need to prepare ourselves. We need to have a roadmap where in the future, we are seen much more independent than today. Where we don't have to rely only on Chinese loans or Saudi grants. We have to have investments from many countries. Like the French, the Germans, the Aussies and so forth, investing in Pakistan.

The above somewhats clarifies my stance and answers your first paragraph. To summarize, Pakistan can do all it wants now, but it needs to have a roadmap and understanding that in the future, it needs to diversify investment and be more independent than today.

Going over your second discussion.

Japan is important to US due to its massive markets. Japan invests in US. It has made plants in US. Making cars, TV, electronics and whatnot. To see Japan collapsing, a major chunk of American GDP will collapse. What does Pakistan have to offer to US? Mangoes? Clothing? More acurately, what does Pakistan have to offer to China? China wants to feed its western areas. With Gawadar linkage, it can cut the distance covered tremendously, saving China so much money. Instead of big ships going around the Indian ocean, into Philipines and Singapore territory, much of that trade can go through Gawadar instead. So it makes sense for China to invest in Gawadar. This is a case of "interests." If lets say Pakistan is faced with embargo or anything, which limits China's complete freedom of trade with Pakistan, things will look bad.

But forget that, that may not happen. So let's talk about why Japan is more important to US than Pakistan is to China, trade wise. As already mentioned, Japan sinking means US losing GDP. Pakistan sinking, China won't be losing much trade.

Now I did not mention US using Japan as a place to counter Chinese threat. US loves creating bases. So does China. That's why China wants to see a strong Pakistan. But here's the difference. Japan offers strategy and economy, whereas Pakistan offers strategy but little economy. Thus, we know Japan has higher importance for US than China has for Pakistan "in the future."

To answer your third para.

Pakistan cannot counter this power imbalance. What I wish to see is Pakistan holding on its own. If there comes a time of embargo, like that of Iran, Pakistan is able to feed its people and people do not starve to death. This is what I mean by strong Pakistan. I do not mean at all that Pakistan has 200 F-35 jets, 5 air craft carriers. But what Pakistan can do to protect its own people.

With that said, it is no threat that India is gaining power. India is 5 times bigger in population. They're bound to have a greater GDP than ours. But the point is, who cares more of its people. If India is to be faced with embargo (I'm just giving example, it's likely to never happen), I'm sure India will be able to feed its people much than Pakistan.

Also this is old theory that India is trying to destabilize Pakistan. It can be 1% correct, but a destablize Pakistan is a headache for India. A destablized Afghan means tons of taliban members entering and attacking Pakistan. When Pakistan is destabalized, India will face same threat. Look at Syria for example, desalinizing is threatening Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Jordan.

Yes India does have hands, which I personally feel, into attacks in Pakistan and whatnot, but it certainly does not want Pakistan as a failed nation. This isn't about ego here "oh look, failed nation. why you separate?" But a stabilized Pakistan is actually better for India as it can trade with it, grow its economy and work on reducing poverty instead of facing threat of taliban attacks.

I hope I cleared some confusion that you may have had.
 
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@WishLivePak let me see if I understand your point. You are saying that Pakistan needs to gain its own strength rather than depending on other nations. What I don't understand is when a nation that is 7 times the people you have and 7 times the resources you have and that nation is trying to destabilize and fragment your country, how do you face that situation just by yourself from your own strength?

Consider Japan, one of the most developed countries of the world. But it has a population that is 1/10 th that of China. Now China is growing and slowly becoming more developed, GDP is rising steadily and military strength is also rising. If China wanted to behave like India, interfering in all neighbor nations, trying to destabilize them, then would Japan be able to do anything to prevent this interference, without US bases there and a mutual defense treaty with the US? Japan is already at its limits of development and when the China reaches even close to that stage of development, Japan would have no hope to counter that threat coming from China, unless Japan becomes a willing partner in some kind of economic union with China (essentially submitting to Chinese supremacy and loose some sovereignty) or bring in outside powers to balance the threat.

So how does Pakistan just gaining its own strength solve this power imbalance? And how is it even possible for Pakistan to develop and gain strength, when India is getting more powerful and will increasingly deploy more resources to destabilize Pakistan? Or do you have doubts that India does not do anything to destabilize its neighbors including Pakistan?
What you said is right.
And I should point out,China and Russians are not allies,the Russians have friendly relation with Vietnam and India,and they will not give up the good relation with them(the Russians don't support our view on SCS),and they are developing relation with Japanese.Yes,we cooperate with them in some things,but only deal with USA,and that's all,nothing more.We will not support Russian stance in Ukraine,because Ukraine is a friendly country to us,we will not harm relations with Ukraine.And in fact,Russians fear Chinese immigrants took their Siberia,they don't trust us,and never will.So Russian and China far from allies,they are just partners in some area.
As for India,we don't want to be enemy with them,we want do bussiness with them,but we can't became allies,because India is a big power,they have their own interests,they will play balance relation between China,Russia and West,nothing wrong with it,however this policy will not get trust from our side,and we need other South Asian countires because our Geopolitical interests,even we are not enemies,we need more closer relation with other south Asian countries than India,geopolitics speak itself.
 
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India never commits to a faithful relationship, they want to remain non-aligned so they can reap maximum benefits from all sides. If China is dreaming that India will become some kind of loyal vassal state, that is because they do not know Indian people and their character very well.

By faithful, if you mean becoming a vassal state of some powerful country, hell NO! Even when we were overrun in 1962, we resisted the temptation to be a US vassal. Why will we do that now, when we can see light at the end of the tunnel?

And why would Chinese expect us to be their vassal state? Did any Chinese member here say so or it is just your own imagination running wild? As a former colony, just like India, I would assume that they also appreciate our independent stands in foreign policy matters.

NO, you are wrong!!! There are potentially many more benefits to be had by taking sides of a super power and becoming a vassal state. Not by pissing both the sides off, equally!!! You are totally contradicting yourself, Mister.

I will take the highlighted portion as a compliment! We may be dirt poor, but we have more often than not, maintained an independent stand when it comes major foreign policy matters, irrespective of which government was in power in Delhi!

A strategic alliance between China and India, if that is the long term goal of Chinese govt. will make China an instant enemy of people of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Not that smaller countries like us matter much in the bigger scheme of things, but it will make things crystal clear for our future direction. It will be a new beginning for India as well as rest of South Asia.

Sometimes, I think it is a good thing that your country is small is and your country's views don't matter much!

With such rabid anti-Indian views and equally rabid anti-Hindu religious hatred, it could have been catastrophic for us, otherwise!!!
 
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And many think tanks in west want to use India balance China's rising,I think the policy makers in India are smart enough not be uesd by others,they will not bacame the wishful thinkers in west like they want to be.But because the policy makers are smart,they surely will use these kind of views in west to get benefit,that's their intetrests,so they will not too close to China(not be enemy with us either),and for us,we want friendly relation with Pakistan,Nepal,Bhutan,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka,this is our Geopolitical interest,and can't be changed
 
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And many think tanks in west want to use India balance China's rising,I think the policy makers in India are smart enough not be uesd by others,they will not bacame the wishful thinkers in west like they want to be.But because the policy makers are smart,they surely will use these kind of views in west to get benefit,that's their intetrests,so they will not too close to China(not be enemy with us either),and for us,we want friendly relation with Pakistan,Nepal,Bhutan,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka,this is our Geopolitical interest,and can't be changed
Because together, it's hard to break you apart :)
India is smart. They have support of all smaller nation. It's like playing role of U.S. but at regional scale. If US is to ever put embargo, it wouldn't be fruitful because India can trade with its neighbours. Just like Iran, embargo forced Iran to trade with China etc.

Also for instance, replace India with Pakistan and thrir mentalility. Believe me, Pakistan would've given US ports and whatnot to counter China. But India won't play as vessel state and develop its own survival. If India and Pakistan war breaks out, God forbids, and both countries face stiff embargo, India will likely win. Yes, because it has better planes and whatnot, but because how it has become much more independent. It can survive for a very long time on its own.

What you said is right.
And I should point out,China and Russians are not allies,the Russians have friendly relation with Vietnam and India,and they will not give up the good relation with them(the Russians don't support our view on SCS),and they are developing relation with Japanese.Yes,we cooperate with them in some things,but only deal with USA,and that's all,nothing more.We will not support Russian stance in Ukraine,because Ukraine is a friendly country to us,we will not harm relations with Ukraine.And in fact,Russians fear Chinese immigrants took their Siberia,they don't trust us,and never will.So Russian and China far from allies,they are just partners in some area.
As for India,we don't want to be enemy with them,we want do bussiness with them,but we can't became allies,because India is a big power,they have their own interests,they will play balance relation between China,Russia and West,nothing wrong with it,however this policy will not get trust from our side,and we need other South Asian countires because our Geopolitical interests,even we are not enemies,we need more closer relation with other south Asian countries than India,geopolitics speak itself.
If religion wasn't an issue, entire south Asia would've been one big country and probably as strong as US. We destroyed ourselves with infighting. Billions spend on military when everyday people die out of starvation, this breaks my heart. $200b by china, 40b by india and 10 something by Pakistan every year. Imagine if we reduce that to 50b on military and rest to kill poverty...

That's like 2b not rich people getting free $200 every year for doing nothing. They can use this to buy medicine, small house, wedding, educate children and so forth! But all this power and religion difference has what got us so poor. We have muslim state, hindu state, buddists, athist (china) and so forth (just giving general idea). Culture is also a culprit.
 
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I gave a positive rate to you not because of your criticism against Pak policies.
You are telling the truth.China already made strong action against their East China neighbours.Provoking India in addition to that is worst thing China can do.
I concede Chinese leaders are too smart.They know If they agree for a small concession they can get a big chunk of share in India trillion $ infrastructure modernisation.
No sane nation cant avoid such opportunity.
And there is a reason for balance of relation between India and Russia.
Noone give you freebies or their hard earned money freely.
There is always a national interest n all behind this.
China is powerful than us.But India is too powerful for China to completely countering like they did against Vietnam.
Plus - Indians are fanatics like all South Asians. :D
 
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Because together, it's hard to break you apart :)



If religion wasn't an issue,

This is what happens when religion is institutionalized into a politcal concept, then it breathes a life of it's own dictating national interest based on ideological dogmas. The needs of a nation is a realist objective, not based on idealist beliefs.
 
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@all, I think we still didnt understanding the bigger perspective, everything between India and China is common, our goal our might, except we are democracy and they are communist. And thats all the difference.

The real problem is border issue, otherwise India and China has no problem with each other, I dont know why our govt. still dont trying to solve this issue, but in larger aspect and for geopolitics we need to, why we still thinking to get access to Central Asian Republic from Iran or from Pakistan? Why not from China?

If India and China become allies, they can change the whole shape of world, the whole Japs and American policy of Asia fails in a night. And we have to decide we want a ally in our neighborhood, or a ally which is long away from our border.
 
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@all, I think we still didnt understanding the bigger perspective, everything between India and China is common, our goal our might, except we are democracy and they are communist. And thats all the difference.

The real problem is border issue, otherwise India and China has no problem with each other, I dont know why our govt. still dont trying to solve this issue, but in larger aspect and for geopolitics we need to, why we still thinking to get access to Central Asian Republic from Iran or from Pakistan? Why not from China?

If India and China become allies, they can change the whole shape of world, the whole Japs and American policy of Asia fails in a night. And we have to decide we want a ally in our neighborhood, or a ally which is long away from our border.
If China can make peace with India, it can with Japan too.

Japan would prefer Chinese neighbour as friend as much as American.
 
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@All Pakistanis: I cant believe you even think like that? Still many pakistanis, even many moderators still in a mentality of bhai bhai friendship, first rule of International relation no one is your bhai. Some Pakistanis call China is your ally, some call turkey is there long standing bhai for Pakistan. That is totally BS, I think still Pakistan living in 50's type of dream, first America and now China. Ok, it is all right Turkey and China is your ally, we have our own, but creating all weather bhai,thats nonsense, even sometimes bhai back stab, so watch your flanks.

If China find India more reliable ally than Pakistan, the China will dump you like no one, and thats the reality.

If China can make peace with India, it can with Japan too.

Japan would prefer Chinese neighbour as friend as much as American.

No, actually there is lot of haterness in Chinese mind about Japs, and actually now it is not possible even, the Japs started to follow American's Asian pivot policy.
 
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@All Pakistanis: I cant believe you even think like that? Still many pakistanis, even many moderators still in a mentality of bhai bhai friendship, first rule of International relation no one is your bhai. Some Pakistanis call China is your ally, some call turkey is there long standing bhai for Pakistan. That is totally BS, I think still Pakistan living in 50's type of dream, first America and now China. Ok, it is all right Turkey and China is your ally, we have to our own, but creating all weather bhai,thats nonsense, even sometimes bhai back stab, so watch your flanks.

If China find India more reliable ally than Pakistan, the China will dump you like no one,



No, actually there is lot of haterness in Chinese mind about Japs, and actually now it is not possible even, the Japs started to follow American's Asian pivot policy.
Do you know how much Egyption hate Israelis? Just watch this video.

Yet, Israel and Egypt no longer fight and have trade agreements. Japan and China can be like that too. One day the public opinion will shift. It takes political will.
 
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