China missile shifts power in Pacific

[gambit]

So basically the missile will mean a change in tactics, but won't make the carrier obsolete, which I have seen some people crowing about.

Exactly. And that is what ticked off some fanboys.

Mass numbers is a poor substitute for accuracy, even if it can be effective.

This is a good example...

I look forward to seeing what comes into the limelight as the Navy (and Airforce?) reveal the general idea of what their counter is, and you can bet they do have counters with the news its generated for so long.

:edit:

“Beijing has successfully developed, tested, and deployed the world’s first weapons system capable of targeting a moving carrier strike group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers,” said Mr Erickson."

Adm. Willard seems to deny this by his statements of it still needing to undergo testing for its designed environment, and it hasn't even been tested against anything that would simulate a moving carrier. Basically it is years off yet.

In any long distance strike, the first item that often make or break a mission is intelligence and in this case it is radar intelligence of the enemy's position. This system is supposedly dependent upon over-the-horizon radars and they often look like this...

Whether the radar is a singular directional antenna like above or an array of omnidirectional dipoles...

Omnidirectional antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An omnidirectional antenna is an antenna which radiates power uniformly in one plane,...

This first layer of radar intelligence will not be as mobile as the missile battery itself, hence it will be vulnerable to direct assault. The destruction or degradation of this first layer will have a proportionate degradation of the system itself to detect and track any surface ship.

 

[below_freezing]

Thank you for the professional answer. Even if not able to launch from thousands of km, even 500 km launches with guidance from warning aircraft can easily disable a carrier in the Yellow Sea or Sea of Japan (using NK or Russian signals).

 

[faithfulguy]

If US can take out the Chinese radar receivers or satellite intelligence, it would render DF-21D useless unless China has a way of detecting the US aircraft carriers by other mean. If China has the capability to prevent the US from destroying the radar and the satellite, why won't China investing in technology that can defeat a US carrier group face on without rely on assymatric warfare? Won't the US find a way to counter the assymatric warfare? It will be a while before China can threaten US in a more realistic scenario. I believe Chinese leadership is smart enough to not use the carrier kill to attack US carrier and even sick one because China will lose a war until China is technically advance enough to fight the US.

 

[foxhound]

China close to deploying anti-ship missile
ref:China close to deploying anti-ship missile - Telegraph

China is moving closer to deploying a ballistic missile designed to sink an aircraft carrier, the commander of the U.S. Pacific Command said.

U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups have ruled the waves in the Asian security environment since the end of World War II Photo: PA
12:27AM GMT 29 Dec 2010

Admiral Robert Willard told Japan's Asahi Shimbun newspaper that he believed the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile programme had achieved "initial operational capability," meaning that a workable design had been settled on and was being further developed.

Known among defence analysts as a "carrier killer," the Dong Feng 21D missile would be a game-changer in the Asian security environment, where U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups have ruled the waves since the end of World War II.
The DF 21D's uniqueness is in its ability to hit a powerfully defended moving target with pinpoint precision – a capability U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with.

The system's component parts have likely been designed and tested, but U.S. sources have not detected an overwater test to see how well it can target a moving ship, Adm Willard said.
Years of tests are probably still needed before the missile can be fully deployed, he said. The system requires state-of-the-art guidance systems, and some experts believe it will take China a decade or so to field a reliable threat.

The missile is considered a key component of China's strategy of denying U.S. planes and ships access to waters off its coast. The strategy includes overlapping layers of air defence systems, naval assets such as submarines, and advanced ballistic missile systems – all woven together with a network of satellites.
At its most capable, the DF 21D could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defences of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 900 miles.

That could seriously weaken Washington's ability to intervene in any potential conflict over Taiwan or North Korea, as well as deny U.S. ships safe access to international waters near China's 11,200-mile-long coastline.
Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu on Tuesday referred questions about Adm Willard's comments to military departments, but reiterated China's insistence that its expanding military threatens no one.

"I can say that China pursues a defensive national policy. ... We pose no threat to other countries. We will always be a force in safeguarding regional peace and stability," Mr Jiang said.

 

[ao333]

Gambit:

Has it ever occured to your pattie brain that ASBMs aren't developed to 1v1 an AC but function as a supplementary weapon during submarine engagement?

Your lopsided speculation on ground-based detection is moot. Submarine sonar, satelite imaging, intel, AI pathing, backtracking missile trajectory, are all viable methods to detect ACs.

Truth to be... I'm not a fan of this missile either...

 

[monitor]

China's Three-Point Naval Strategy

Long march of
China's military
reform
The People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has in 2010 taken part in numerous exercises, experimented
with long-range force projection and represented China abroad in a number of diplomatic visits. This
heightened level of activity results from an ambitious naval strategy which seeks to secure China's access
to energy resources and to give it more diplomatic leverage in territorial disputes with its neighbours.
As the Chinese leadership has shifted military investment towards the PLAN, it has been able to draw on a
military-industrial base and research and development capabilities that have gained maturity through two
decades of reform and military modernisation. The current maritime strategy has three main elements:
military exercises designed for training purposes as well as to act as a deterrent; longer-range power-
projection experiments; and military diplomacy in the form of port calls and bilateral cooperation.
Military exercises
In 2010, Chinese naval and coastal-defence exercises have been unusually intense and numerous.
Moving away from the heavily scripted affairs of the past, the emphasis has been on 'real-life' combat
situations. Focusing on littoral defence, rapid mobilisation, command-and-control flexibility and longer-
range projection, the exercises have been highly significant for the development of the PLAN.
In early April, 16 warships from all three fleets (the North, East and South Sea Fleets) conducted an
unprecedented maritime exercise. The vessels sailed within 140km of the Japanese island of Okinawa,
through the Bashi Channel, and in the direction of the Malacca Strait. The ships conducted live-firing and
anti-submarine drills along the Chinese coast, during which flotillas and air regiments from numerous
PLAN bases simulated attacks on the training fleet. The exercise demonstrated that the PLAN had
achieved its greatest-ever level of operational flexibility in the simultaneous deployment of underwater,
surface and air assets, and has the confidence to sail over longer distances as it seeks to reinforce
Chinese territorial claims in the South China Sea.
In July, PLAN fleets conducted a series of drills in response to United States–South Korean naval
exercises in the Yellow Sea. Though Beijing understood that the bilateral exercises were a response to
North Korea's alleged sinking of the South Korean corvette Cheonan in March, it still objected strongly to
the presence of the aircraft carrier George Washington so close to Chinese shores. The first of the drills
was conducted by Type 022 Houbei-class fast missile-attack vessels of the 16th Fast Attack Flotilla of the
East Sea Fleet. The Type 022s, each carrying eight YJ-83 long-range anti-ship missiles, are an important
element of China's littoral defence doctrine, using 'wolf pack' tactics aimed at harassing larger enemy
fleets from a distance.
The most significant outing came later in July when at least a dozen warships from all three fleets
conducted a maritime exercise in the South China Sea. They included the most modern vessels from the
PLAN's surface and submarine fleets: Type 051C Luzhou, Type 052B Luyang I and Type 052C Luyang II
destroyers, Type 054A Jiangkai II frigates, all four of the East Sea Fleet's Sovremenny destroyers, and
Kilo-class attack submarines, with JH-7/7A fighter bombers providing air cover. Numerous live-firing and
missile tests were carried out. The exercise received widespread domestic media coverage and was
attended by a large number of high-ranking PLA personnel, including General Chen Bingde, a Central
Military Commission member and Chief of the General Staff Department, who called upon the PLAN to
'pay close attention to [regional] situations, and be militarily prepared'.
Amid tensions in the South China Sea, this long-range combined-arms exercise sent a clear message of
deterrence to China's neighbours. It displayed China's abilities and willingness to project its naval power to
the South China Sea in a flexible and comprehensive manner. Furthermore, it showed that the PLAN is
now focusing beyond merely achieving the capabilities required for a military resolution of the Taiwan
issue.
In an effort to demonstrate to the world China's ability to deploy a multi-layered and multi-armed defensive
ring around its territorial waters, the PLAN has conducted long-range missile tests off the coast of Nanjing
military region featuring PHL03 multiple-launch rocket systems. These have a range of some 150km and
can fire precision-guided munitions. The naval aviation branch of the PLAN, the PLANAF, has provided
extensive support to training drills.
The 2010 exercises have drawn attention to a small-scale maritime arms race in the region, with countries
such as Vietnam and Malaysia seeking to develop their own naval capabilities – though their efforts are
minor by comparison with China's maritime expansion. Furthermore, there has been tension in the South
China Sea amidst actions involving 'maritime paramilitaries' – in China's case, these take the form of coast
guard, maritime surveillance and fisheries vessels, while in the case of Malaysia and Vietnam they are
naval patrol craft and armed fishing vessels. Examples of ramming, harassment and even shooting of
fishermen are becoming increasingly common.
Long-range deployments
Though China has been an active participant in United Nations peacekeeping operations, its contributions Page 2

have mostly been limited to non-combat troops. However, since December 2008 it has deployed naval
vessels to the multinational anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden. Each four-month rotation usually
consists of two destroyers or frigates and one replenishment ship. The PLA terms these 'military
operations other than war', and sees them as an opportunity to train officers and test equipment – China's
armed forces have not seen military action since border skirmishes with Vietnam in the 1980s.
The navy has gained experience from the deployment and has surmounted significant logistical problems.
The first flotilla suffered from a shortage of fresh food because it did not have a supply port. Unlike
Western vessels, which put ashore on average every 10–14 days, the first flotilla remained at sea for the
whole rotation, eventually jeopardising the health of the crew and the flotilla's effectiveness. In addition, its
handling of the first few pirate attacks was clumsy and poorly coordinated because the PLAN had not
established effective rules of engagement.
By the second and third rotations, China had established arrangements for resupply ports. Chinese
vessels now put in at ports such as Djibouti, Salalah in Oman and Aden in Yemen. China's task force has
also begun to participate in monthly 'shared awareness and deconfliction' meetings at which navies
exchange operational information. The PLAN flotillas have participated in joint exercises and officer
exchanges, and have been keen to gain experience of anti-piracy tactics from other navies. The PLAN has
expressed an interest in taking on more of a collaborative role in the anti-piracy effort, which would be a
significant step. For example, it is understood that there have been intelligence exchanges between the
PLAN and the Singapore navy, following the pirates' seizure of a ship that was Chinese-owned and -
crewed, but registered in Singapore.
In July, the PLAN's largest vessel was dispatched to the Gulf of Aden, the Kunlun Shan, a 17,000-tonne
Type 071 Yuzhao-class landing platform dock (LPD), carrying a platoon-level force of PLAN marines – the
elite of the Chinese navy. With Z-8 medium helicopters, a new landing craft and two new speedboats, the
Kunlun Shan was able to test the navy's expeditionary capabilities – vital for a vessel that would play a
crucial role in any military action against Taiwan. In August helicopters and marines deployed from the
Kunlan Shan repelled three groups of pirate skiffs.
The 10,000-tonne Peace Ark hospital ship, China's largest and only purpose-built hospital ship has also
been sent to conduct medical exercises with countries in the Gulf of Aden and along its route. The 87-day
mission will see the ship visit Djibouti, Kenya, Tanzania, the Seychelles and Bangladesh.
Military diplomacy
As Beijing recognises that its efforts to strengthen deterrence and demonstrate its ability to project force
may be viewed with concern by its neighbours, the third part of China's maritime strategy consists of
military diplomacy. The aim of Beijing's diplomatic programme is to establish bilateral and multilateral
relationships in the Asia-Pacific and beyond, as well as to de-escalate territorial disputes with its
neighbours and restrain any tendency they might have to strengthen military ties with the US.
As the most flexible and outwardly focused arm of the PLA, the PLAN has proved a useful tool with which
to demonstrate China's soft power. The stepped-up Chinese naval presence in the world's oceans has
seen this form of military diplomacy rise to an all-time high. Vessels taking part in the Gulf of Aden
deployments are often sent on a circuitous homeward route during which port visits are made and public-
relations events held.
After completing its counter-piracy duty, the missile destroyer Guangzhou was sent through the Suez
Canal into the Mediterranean to conduct port calls in Egypt, Greece and Italy. It later visited Myanmar and
rounded off its diplomatic voyage with a port call at Singapore on 5 September, where it conducted ad-hoc
drills with the Singaporean navy.
Similarly, training flotillas are being sent on goodwill visits. The training ship Zheng He and frigate Mian
Yang visited Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, Tonga, New Zealand and Australia in August and September.
They took part in ad-hoc exercises, as well as holding elaborate public-relations events.
The effectiveness of these attempts at military diplomacy remains to be seen. 'Friendly places' where
Chinese ships can resupply have been established. Military diplomacy has worked well in places where
goodwill gestures have been followed up with hard currency – for example in the Sri Lankan port of
Hambantota, which was recently completed with Chinese help and will offer civilian Chinese ships a useful
refuelling point. The enthusiasm of the PLAN for bilateral exercises with Asia-Pacific nations fosters
military exchanges and transparency, as well as offering countries in the region a valuable glimpse of the
Chinese military.
Future strategy
Though China remains a long way from the fully fledged blue-water navy that it plans to create by 2050,
naval developments are likely to be at the forefront of its foreign and defence policy for at least the next
decade. The purpose of the three elements of China's naval strategy is to act as a regional strategic
deterrent, to gain operational experience and to foster bilateral cooperation. Beijing is likely to use its
growing naval capabilities to shore up its claims to the disputed islands in the East China Sea and the
South China Sea, as well as playing a part in any potential military resolution of the Taiwan issue.
Technological advances will support these efforts, such as over-the-horizon radar and the indigenous
Beidou GPS system. In terms of diplomacy, China's naval strategy has achieved limited but nonetheless
tangible results. Overall, the scope of the PLAN's activities this year demonstrates how its confidence has
grown in tandem with its operational experience.

 

[gpit]

...

Your lopsided speculation on ground-based detection is moot. Submarine sonar, satelite imaging, intel, AI pathing, backtracking missile trajectory, are all viable methods to detect ACs.

...

Completely agree on this.

The anti-communist clown’s brain is so crooked and his hatred against China drives him nuts and irrational... and fails to find other myriads of channels of thinking than only the ones that his pathetic cerebrum-less nervous system is condemned to be confined to... a typical behavior of high school drop-outs.

A simple scenario would be for a submarine, or even a piece of equipment (such as your sonar-like stuff), to lurk in the darkness and wait for the CA to arrive, and then to beam a signal, which lasts only milliseconds, to a geo-stationary satellite, or on shore listener, or other boats around, to report the coordinators...and the information is then transferred to guide the missile while it is either in outer-sphere or mid-air...

 

[gambit]

Gambit:

Has it ever occured to your pattie brain that ASBMs aren't developed to 1v1 an AC but function as a supplementary weapon during submarine engagement?

Your lopsided speculation on ground-based detection is moot. Submarine sonar, satelite imaging, intel, AI pathing, backtracking missile trajectory, are all viable methods to detect ACs.

Truth to be... I'm not a fan of this missile either...

You speak...But I see nothing but gibberish...Oh brainless one. What I posed is only one countermeasure to this 'supplementary' weapon and a countermeasure that goes back to the source. But then everyone can see that this is a tacit agreement by YOU that the system can be seriously degraded, if not defeated. Truth to be...I doubt you have any inklings of the meanings of the words you typed out.

 

[gambit]

Completely agree on this.

The anti-communist clown’s brain is so crooked and his hatred against China drives him nuts and irrational... and fails to find other myriads of channels of thinking than only the ones that his pathetic cerebrum-less nervous system is condemned to be confined to... a typical behavior of high school drop-outs.

A simple scenario would be for a submarine, or even a piece of equipment (such as your sonar-like stuff), to lurk in the darkness and wait for the CA to arrive, and then to beam a signal, which lasts only milliseconds, to a geo-stationary satellite, or on shore listener, or other boats around, to report the coordinators...and the information is then transferred to guide the missile while it is either in outer-sphere or mid-air...

I take it this moving target will accommodate the submarine? A simple scenario for a simple mind.

 

[Brotherhood]

A possible scenario of DF-21D attack on US carrier group from Korean media.

 

[rockstarIN]

China deploying carrier killer missile: US commander

WASHINGTON (PTI): China is developing a new anti-ship ballistic missile that can sink US aircrafts, a top Pentagon naval commander has claimed.

He also said China's other military developments are part of the Chinese ambition to extend its area of influence beyond the region and become a global military power.

As such, in an interview to Asahi Simbhun, the popular Japanese newspaper, Admiral Robert Williard, Commander of the US Pacific Command, has warned of an arms race in the region and shift of balance of power in Asia, which he noted is not good for stability in Asia.

"I would say that the military balance is undoubtedly shifting as China's military expands faster than other regional nations, but the strategic balance remains in flux," Willard told the popular Japanese newspaper in an interview given in Honolulu, headquarter of the Pacific Command.

"The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be initial operational capability, whereby it has--I think China would perceive that it has an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it.

"It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years," he told the newspaper.

"I think that the component parts of the anti-ship ballistic missile have been developed and tested," he said.

"The anti-access/area denial capabilities, fully employed, will present a challenge to military operations in the region. That will have to be overcome," he said.

The PACOM Commander said the anti-access/area denial systems being developed by China, more or less, range countries, archipelagos such as Japan, the Philippines and Vietnam, so there are many countries in the region that are falling within the envelope of this, of an A2/AD capability of China.

"That should be concerning--and we know is concerning--to those countries," he said.

"While it may be largely designed to assure China of its ability to affect military operations within its regional waters, it is an expanded capability that ranges beyond the first island chain and overlaps countries in the region. For that reason, it is concerning to Southeast Asia, (and) it remains concerning to the United States," he said.

"This kind of capability should be a concern to the region, and it poses a challenge to any naval or air operations that would be conducted in that area were it to be employed," he said in response to a question, but added that this is not affecting US operations capabilities as of now.

Willard said the tremendous advancement in China's military itself is shifting the overall balance of military powers in the region.

It has been rare in history that any country underpinned by the kind of economic power that China possesses has developed its military so rapidly, he said.

"But at the same time, the other countries in the Asia-Pacific region that are troubled by and uncertain of China's intentions are also advancing their own military capabilities, and this is particularly true in the acquisition of submarines and advanced aircraft.

"We are seeing not only China advance, but (also) the other militaries in the region that can afford it seek to advance alongside," Willard said.

"I think that the nations in the region have a responsibility to be able to maintain security within their territory, and not all of the nations in the Asia-Pacific are self-sufficient militarily.

To an extent, the acquisition of systems (and) the advancement of our regional militaries will assist all of us in sharing the responsibility to maintain security across Asia-Pacific," he said.

"To the extent the acquisitions are specifically to counter China or any other nation's growing military, it would raise the question whether or not those acquisitions are properly balanced to achieve self-sufficiency or whether it's targeted against counter-balancing other military powers," Willard said.

China deploying carrier killer missile: US commander - Brahmand.com

 

[Developereo]

Is it true that the US regards a hit on an AC as equivalent to a nuclear attack?

If so, then this missile is as impractical as a nuclear weapon. It is only useful in the doomsday scenario.

 

[Thomas]

Even if the DF-21 works as advertised. From the diagrams I have seen it simply lacks a warhead large enough to sink a Nimitz or Ford class carrier. Plus it would have to overcome an Aegis defense shield designed to shoot down ballistic missile warheads.

China's best naval asset is Subs, these are the biggest threat to Carrier task forces. The U.S. did get a shock not long ago when a Chinese sub surfaced inside a carrier group. However it proved to be an important wakeup call. The U.S. Navy has been working hard since then learning to better overcome the dangers of diesel/electric subs. It now leases them from Nato countries to train agianst.

 

[Jigs]

Even if the DF-21 works as advertised. From the diagrams I have seen it simply lacks a warhead large enough to sink a Nimitz or Ford class carrier. Plus it would have to overcome an Aegis defense shield designed to shoot down ballistic missile warheads.

China's best naval asset is Subs, these are the biggest threat to Carrier task forces. The U.S. did get a shock not long ago when a Chinese sub surfaced inside a carrier group. However it proved to be an important wakeup call. The U.S. Navy has been working hard since then learning to better overcome the dangers of diesel/electric subs. It now leases them from Nato countries to train agianst.

Which resulted in the same thing.

HMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier

Even if the missile cant not sink the carrier if it hits the "island" or the deck that would effectively knock it out of the fight.

 

[Thomas]

Which resulted in the same thing.

link your source for this?

on a side note My guess is the Chinese got thier hands on old Pershing II missile intelligence to develop the DF-21. The U.S. scrapped these under treaty with the Russians.